Chi, KI, Internal Energy

[fanged_seamus]

Originally posted by chufeng

Just because our science isn't up to the task (isn't sophisticated enough) to measure qi, doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

That's the beauty of science -- just because it can't be done today doesn't mean it can't be done tomorrow. Our knowledge of the physical world is being constantly revised and expanded because of the scientific method. And I'm always willing to alter my beliefs based on new proof as it is offered....

Is that subjective? In a way, yes...but its effects can be observed by others...the part that becomes difficult is explaining "why." There are many who refuse to accept the existence of certain things without "scientific" proof...anything I say, or do, won't change their minds...so I don't burn a lot of energy trying.

I know the idea of chi/ki/qi is integral to many martial arts and is a hot-button topic on this forum. But since most of the posts were "pro-qi," I thought I'd give a different opinion.

From my viewpoint, this argument is exactly parallel to an argument on religion: people with religious faith "know" God exists, and those without religious faith rely on other methods of proof. And, of course, both sides can argue endlessly, but that just wastes time and energy.

And on that note, I'll be quiet now....

 

[MinnieMin]

I am here not to prove anything because I don't practice the art; if I don't know the art, I have no position to argue it with anyone.
I totally agree with seamus about the alter my beliefs based on the proof and that's why I am not religious - I tried to go the church to understand it, but ended up with shaking my head out. Qi has always a fascinating art to me - heard a lot as I'm a Chinese, but doubt about it because qi is not something I can see, can touch, or can feel by myself. If someone tell the same story of my daughter's, I would think as, "oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. whatever", but this happened to my daughter and I was standing next to that lady and was watching everything. I doubted this lady at the beginning and ended up with my mouth hanging open. This is not what I wanted to believe but a simply true fact.
Till today, do I believe Qi? I can't say it; do I not? still, I can't say it either.

 

[Bod]

Science will one day explain qi, but it can't at the moment because it is essentially a collective effect, and science is better at the moment at breaking things down into their parts, and not seeing how the parts affect the whole.

The important thing is if you can use the idea of qi as a tool.

When you are trying to sing a high note you try to 'lift the sound out of your back and over your head'. The idea enables you to do the action, even if the two aren't linked. Qi is the same, just more powerful.

 

[Marginal]

I'm not really big on the concept of chi. The links kinda explain why.

http://www.tkdtutor.com/04Students/WhatsTruth.htm
http://www.tkdtutor.com/04Students/MagneticGirl.htm

 

[Taiji fan]

mmmnn interesting link....pity that after I pressed analyze it came up with only the country I had choosen...so what exactly was it trying to prove? The first link reminded me of a well know skeptic in the UK that believes that if there is not a scientific explanation for something then it does not exsist, which when you consider other peoples experiences is a pretty blinkered and lets face it pretty rude....there are lots of things we cannot understand or cannot be proved by the limite knowledge of science, but as for qi..well it is a nice cop out for not having to explain something...oh its just the qi. Not to say that there is no such thing but I think it is an over used term often banidied about by people who wish to mystify the chinese arts or make themselves appear far more knowledgeable than their student (more so in the west) often these are the people that couldn't find thier own back sides with two hands and a map....but they are masters of the qi.......

 

[MartialArtist]

Originally posted by Marginal

I'm not really big on the concept of chi. The links kinda explain why.

http://www.tkdtutor.com/04Students/WhatsTruth.htm
http://www.tkdtutor.com/04Students/MagneticGirl.htm

That is not necessarily chi.

Why? This is directed at both Marginal and Seamus.

Internal energy isn't some mystical karma or a belief. Internal energy starts with the mind. Anybody knows that the mind plays the key to all physical performance. Internal energy is responsible for people breaking out of their molds. Internal energy is responsible for people doing things they've never thought they could do before. Internal energy is the basis for all power. Concentrate, but keep your mind relaxed, open, and free. You'll be surprised how much better you'll be. That's one example of internal energy.

I don't know of any professional athlete or great fighter who denies the existence of internal energy. Mike Tyson believes that a lot of his power comes from his mind.

 

[sammy3170]

Originally posted by kenpo_cory

I too agree with Cthulhu. My instructor can break just the bottom of 2 or more boards. After explaining this to one of the black belts in our class his was doing the same thing after a few days of practice. He was not 100% with it but nonetheless was performing the spot break. I believe it's all in proper technique.

Yes it is but in the proper technique of developing chi. Sometimes you don't have to practice for years to do things you just have to know what to do. Some areas of chi cultivation are like this. A simple example is the unbendable arm, something you can teach someone to do in 5 minutes. I've seen a female of about 50kg prevent a 100kg male from being able to bend her arm with a couple of minutes of teaching.

Cheers
Sammy

 

[sammy3170]

Originally posted by MartialArtist

Mike Tyson believes that a lot of his power comes from his mind.

He just chooses to use it very rarely

Cheers
Sammy

 

[fanged_seamus]

Originally posted by MartialArtist

Internal energy isn't some mystical karma or a belief. Internal energy starts with the mind. Anybody knows that the mind plays the key to all physical performance. Internal energy is responsible for people breaking out of their molds. Internal energy is responsible for people doing things they've never thought they could do before. Internal energy is the basis for all power. Concentrate, but keep your mind relaxed, open, and free. You'll be surprised how much better you'll be. That's one example of internal energy.

I absolutely agree that concentration, focus, relaxation, and visualization are critical to performance. It's just that I call it "resolve" or "determination" rather than "chi" or "internal energy." It's a question of definition and viewpoint rather than belief, in this case.

I like your point, though.:asian:

Tad

 

[Marginal]

Originally posted by MartialArtist


Internal energy isn't some mystical karma or a belief. Internal energy starts with the mind. Anybody knows that the mind plays the key to all physical performance.

Well, I'm not questioning the need for mental focus. That's not Qi though in my understanding. Qi's just your life force. That's about as far as it goes as a dynamic force. What I question is when Qi starts being used to make claims like "I can deliver a knockout without touching you." Quite a few 'proven' manifestations of Qi tend to end up debunked, like the spear against the throat trick, the heavy person/magnetic girl etc.

 

[fringe_dweller]

Originally posted by Marginal

What I question is when Qi starts being used to make claims like "I can deliver a knockout without touching you." Quite a few 'proven' manifestations of Qi tend to end up debunked, like the spear against the throat trick, the heavy person/magnetic girl etc.

I'd agree with this. I've seen some things that can't be explained away hence I believe in ki/chi but I have also seen things claimed but never proven.
Generally the difference between the two occurences is the person... One is seeking to teach or instruct while the other is simply seeking to show off or prove their superiority - maybe we should call it "chi envy"

Respectfully

 

[Elfan]

I don't belive in chi/qi/ki or any other form of vitalism. However, it does make for good entertainment (DBZ) and excelent reading (Nietzsche).

 

[MartialArtist]

Originally posted by sammy3170

He just chooses to use it very rarely

Cheers
Sammy

Yeah, it may seem like that.

That is until you get hit by him... No, he is not the biggest or the strongest man, not even close (although size and strength is of little correlation to power). He isn't the fastest man alive. He has pretty good technique but not the best. But...

 

[MartialArtist]

Originally posted by Marginal

Well, I'm not questioning the need for mental focus. That's not Qi though in my understanding. Qi's just your life force. That's about as far as it goes as a dynamic force. What I question is when Qi starts being used to make claims like "I can deliver a knockout without touching you." Quite a few 'proven' manifestations of Qi tend to end up debunked, like the spear against the throat trick, the heavy person/magnetic girl etc.

Ki and chi is energy. Don't mistake it for the wacky I will sling you across a sumo with a finger claims.

Chi is something that allows you to flip a 600 pound man over your shoulder even if you can't deadlift over 300. Chi is energy and force. You can manipulate it. If you trap someone's arm or leg, their chi will be unbalanced. Get what I'm getting at?

Besides, most the people who claim such things like flicking someone across the room with a pinkie don't even know what chi is. Ask them, they'll say something like, "uhhhhhhh, tai chi?"

 

[MartialArtist]

Again, chi isn't some mystic karma or anything.

Chi is inner energy. It's not that hard to believe at all. Inner energy is the thing that gives you power.

 

[Taiji fan]

Chi is something that allows you to flip a 600 pound man over your shoulder even if you can't deadlift over 300.

and adrenalin will give you much the same results

 

[sammy3170]

Originally posted by Elfan

I don't belive in chi/qi/ki or any other form of vitalism. However, it does make for good entertainment (DBZ) and excelent reading (Nietzsche).

It's not something that if you don't believe in it it's not there. If you choose to ignore it and not harness it that is your choice.
Does the fact that you do not believe in it mean that a 100lb tai chi expert (just an example) can't toss you across the room using chi because you don't believe in it? I think not.

No amount of physical technique with achieve what you can withthe proper harnessing of chi

Just Some thoughts
Cheers
Sammy

 

[sammy3170]

Originally posted by Taiji fan

and adrenalin will give you much the same results

I would rather have my adrenalin under control and be able (not that i can) to use chi than have such an adrenal dump that it would allow me to do that.

Cheers
Sammy

 

[chufeng]

TaijiFan,

Interesting that someone who practices an internal art would speak out against the existence of Qi.

Are you just playing devil's advocate, or do you really think it's just a lot of bunk?

The adrenalin argument is weak...in order to effectively use qi, you must relax...an adrenalin rush is anything but relaxing.

:asian:
chufeng

 

[Taiji fan]

Interesting that someone who practices an internal art would speak out against the existence of Qi.

I don't believe that I have spoken out against the exsistance of qi. Maybe its because that I do practise an internal art that I have seen more charlatens and people who lack a great deal of integrity who are self proclaimed masters of qi that I get a bit fed up hearing the same old unqualified stuff that is regurgitated. All martial arts at a high level are internal anyway.

Are you just playing devil's advocate, or do you really think it's just a lot of bunk?

neither.

The adrenalin argument is weak...in order to effectively use qi, you must relax...an adrenalin rush is anything but relaxing.

the adrenalin argument is not weak. This potent hormone is designed to enable the body to work at a different level giving at times the impression of superhuman powers...ie the little old lady lifting the car etc. There was no comparrison given between the effects on the body of qi and the effects on the body of adrenalin, just a simple statement"Chi is something that allows you to flip a 600 pound man over your shoulder even if you can't deadlift over 300."