Bujinkan took many techniques from Pirates

[Sukerkin]

Cheers, my friend :tup:.

I don't want to drag the thread about from it's potentially very interesting core, so I wont go any further than express my thanks for the congratulations (and not sticking me with shruiken ).

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

Given the less than sound historical background for the sheer existence of ninja's in the first place (not on about the 'style' here, so no shruiken up my bum please !),

You paint a canvas in various pink nuances, and then you walk around in the street showing it to people who aren't really prepared, and at the same time you yell out "real estate broker!!!" And then you just run away, but you're not really looking to see where you're going, so you run straight into a telephone pole. Which transforms into chocolate.

Cue heretic888.

 

[Blindside]

A boarding pike is a "grapple," as are grappling hooks,and boarding axes ( as opposed to the smaller and lighter trade axes).

Why are they called that? The boarding pike heads I've seen are very, well, pike-like, pretty dang useless for doing anything like "grappling." But thank you for the information.

 

[elder999]

Why are they called that? .

Depends upon what you're "grappling," don't it?:EG:

Created to repel boarders, though sometimes used by a poorer pirate in a boarding party, who lacked a cutlass or quiver of pistols, one of the strategies used with this weapon was to entangle it in the clothes of a boarder or sink it into their flesh and use leverage to throw them between the ships, where they'd likely be crushed.....

 

[newtothe dark]

Gratz on the soon to be Mrs Ninja woot!!!!!!!!!!

On topic if there is water and a boat then there be pirates!!

 

[Bigshadow]

I notice that many techniques in the Bujinkan look similar to what we learn in Pirate Combat. I asked my instructor about this and he said Pirates had visited Japan and no doubt passed on many of of the techniques we use.

Sorry I don't see any similarities.

 

[tellner]

No. A boarding pike is not a grapple. It is a pike, a spear. I've got a couple authentic ones and have done a little research into the history. The European and American ones tended to be triangular cross section spears on anything from four to eight foot shafts. Some were socketed. Some had tangs. None would have been any use as a grapple.

If you're talking about Age of Sail European pirates and privateers the most common weapons were:

• The cutlass - We have old manuals showing the drill. It doesn't resemble any sort of Japanese sword technique with which I am familiar
• The rapier or smallsword (officers only) - similar, although the few places the Dutch and Portugese were allowed to trade may have caused a little cross-fertilization. Good luck proving anything
• The boarding axe or tomahawk - Useful for all sorts of things from choppng wood, cutting fouled rope, pulling big hunks of rope, digging *shudder* furnace shot out of wood and for whacking people upside the head. How common a weapon was the tomahawk in Japan anywhere any time?
• The boarding pike - See above, a stout spear of various lengths that left a vicious wound. Japan already had well-developed spear technique
• The boarding knife - Uncommon but feared. A bit like the nagamaki. A specialist's weapon. Almost certainly parallel evolution.
• Various pistols, muskets and blunderbusses - Outside of the Baby Cart comics, no. Japan pretty much rejected the use of firearms. The samurai rebellion during the early years of Japan's opening to the world demonstrates why. Lots of dead samurai who never even got into bow range before being cut down by artillery and volleyed fire
• Cannon - see above
• Boarding nets - very important but only on shipboard.

When you say "pirates" it depends on what you're talking about.

If you mean European and American pirates from the sixteenth to early nineteenth centuries there was no appreciable influence. Period. The famed ninja shadow warriors (tm) had nothing to do with any of the areas in question. Same with the Barbary pirates, pirates off the horn of Africa, or pirates off the West Coast of Africa. I'd venture to say that the same holds for Dayaks, the South China sea and the Phillipines. Japan was incredibly insular (so to speak). The secret police and the few possibly existing (a different discussion) renegade mountain dwellers wouldn't have had any business in those areas.

There were pirates in the area around Japan. Odds are they would be armed and fight like, well Korean, Chinese or Japanese sailors but mostly not as formally trained. How much influence would they really have on either the shogun's enforcers or the possibly existing other guys? Probably a bit around the coasts, but I can't imagine it would be all that much.

And by the bye...

irate2:irates:

Pirates Are Way Cooler Than Ninja!!!

%-} irate:

 

[shesulsa]

So, what is "pirate combat"? I've never heard of it? :angel:

http://www.www.halfire.com/application/index.php?cmd=25&project_id=216&obbydata_id=2917&obby_id=909

 

[That One Guy]

ROFLMFAO


you know, I have a theory that a good flame war is healthy for any internet community once in awhile.......

 

[tellner]

http://www.www.halfire.com/application/index.php?cmd=25&project_id=216&obbydata_id=2917&obby_id=909

:bs1::bs: :bs1:​

Ye flippin' gawds. Where to begin...

In 1924 Jushin Teach established the school that came to be known as Pirate Combat. He wanted his school to study as closely as possible the way of the Pirates as practiced in the 8th - 12th Century. Jushin Oshima was a naval captain in the British Navy, and it was his devotion and research that ensured the survival of the art in its present form. Teach coined the word 'Pirate Combat', which alludes to the broader world, or path, of the classical Pirate, full of spiritual and martial values. With the close of the War in Asia in 1945, Pirate Combat found itself based in Spain, where it had earlier been adopted by the occupying Imperial Forces. This was a blessing, as the art was sheltered from the social conditioning and cultural sterilization that was occurring in the rest of the world under American occupatio. . This is where a retired Navy Captain, Tomus Quido (an 8th Dan Grandmaster), took over and trained, and in 1977 passed the Grandmastership to his student, Simon Tang (now 9th Dan). In 1987, Shihan Simon Tang moved to New York and established the World headquarters for the Art of Pirate Combat, the first dojo for this art to exist in the world.

So Blackbeard founded a school of Dark Ages "classical" pirate martial arts in 1924. In 1945 it somehow moved to Spain where it acquired Japanese ranks and had established itself earlier(?!), presumably without anyone ever hearing of it. And the only Grandmaster passed it on to the one guy who keeps The Flame alive. This is sounding more and more like Hikuta on a combination of overproof rum and bad acid.

* TRUTH 1: The first stage involves the learning process, whereby the students learn all the basics in techniques. The White belt to Red belt covers this stage.
* TRUTH 2: This level shows the limitations of techniques. In a sense, students have to 'unlearn' everything from the previous level. Techniques can only go so far, so students learn and understand that spontaneity is the key to unlock the rigidity and inflexibility of techniques. The Ha level is where students are expected to undergo a degree of transformation, to go beyond the limitations of techniques. The Brown belt to the 3rd Dan Black Belt is worn during this stage.
* TRUTH 3: This stage traces a path of transcendence, where one frees oneself from techniques. In one's mind techniques do not exist any more: you and the techniques are one, inseparable. 4th Dan Black belt and above is required here.

Yeah, that sounds like Calico Jack and a bunch of escaped lumpen proletariat British Seamen and how they fought. Yup. Yup.

* (weight & Strength training)
* (grappling, throwing & choking)
* (strikes, kicks & blockings)
* (situation techniques)
* (6ft. staff)
* (3ft. staff)
* (4ft. staff)
* (sword techniques)
* (knife technique)
* (sickle technique)
* (sword technique)
* (baton technique)
* (chain technique)

Batons and staves. Chains. Sickles.
No pikes, axes, muskets, pistols, cannon, or even boarding knives and slungshots if you want to get obscure.

*sniff* *sniff* Has a bull been through here? Had he eaten recently?

Then there's the guy's bio:

Shihan Simon Tang 's training in martial arts began when he was eight. At 16 he obtained his Kodokan Black Belt (a rare honour in those days). He was chief instructor in Judo at the his University from 1967 to 1970. Shihan Simon Tang continued to study other disciplines, gaining a wider perspective of the martial arts. He has practiced Seibukan Karate, Ju-jitsu, Taijutsu, and Kuatsu. In this same period he competed often and won numerous titles, including the Europe Ju-Jitsu Championships in 1969, the All Europe Grappling Championship of 1970, and the Eastern Europe Freestyle Battle of Champions (Light Heavy-weight) in 1971.

Shihan Simon Tang 's turning point came when he was 26: he discovered Pirate Combat. Here he finally found an art that gave him the enlightenment he was looking for. Pirate Combat became a vehicle for him to achieve balance and harmony in mind, body, and spirit. He realised that martial arts was not just about fighting and winning. It was more about self-realisation and self-discovery.

In his teachings, the Shihan always tries to ensure that his students understand the mental and spiritual aspects of the art. In his own words, "It is the spiritual dimension that ultimately creates the truepirate." Students are taught from the outset that techniques must be made relative to the surroundings they are practised in. The most important quality to cultivate in training is spontaneity, because only this can allow one to blend techniques with the given situation. Training of the mind and meditation therefore constitutes a major part of the syllabus.

The Red Belt Syllabus
The student covers more weapons at this level the ancient pirate weapons of sickle and staff (six-foot staff) are taught.

The Purple Belt Syllabus

Here he trains in more weapons - including the chain and the 4-feet wooden staff and the cutless.

4th Dan and Onwards

From the 43rd Dan onwards one travels the true Pirate path - a path of transcendence when one frees oneself from all techniques. In one's mind techniques do not exist as techniques. The source of techniques (which is your mind) and techniques are one and the same. It is no longer a situation of YOU and TECHNIQUES. You are the techniques. The techniques and you are ONE - no longer separable. At this level the student has finally found 'freedom'. He sees the world as 'Universal Chi' and harmony can only come about when one finds balance with that energy.

Meditation and spiritual improvement. That sounds traditionally piratical to me. I'm picturing a bunch hardbitten sailors with striped shirts and eyepatches sitting on the deck in a circle before battle solemnly intoning

Arrrrrr Arrrrrr

until they achieve Enlightenment.

Great Poseidon. The guy isn't even a good liar.

The pictures show what looks like Renn-Faire style fencing/stage combat poorly done.

And so on.

And so forth.

It's a poorly executed joke, delusional, or someone has tapped into the 0.0167 Hz Barnum Wave big-time.

:bs1::bs: :bs1:​

 

[Sukerkin]

Wonderful tirade, Tellner .

"Jushin Oshima" ... a British Navy Captain from the 1920's? Mmm, I don't think so, not with a name like that :lol:.

 

[DavidCC]

A boarding pike is a "grapple," as are grappling hooks,and boarding axes ( as opposed to the smaller and lighter trade axes).

So... pirates were grapplers. Which means ninjas are grapplers. Therefore grapplers are ninjas. Therefore, ninjas > mma.

 

[shesulsa]

I just kinda clicked around on the link the OP had in his siggy and found that. I take no personal responsibility for the content of that link nor do I state my opinion of it in any way shape or form.

 

[Blotan Hunka]

They look like a bunch of theme park employees. Did anybody notice the background in some of those photos. Looks like a park display/ride.

 

[Kreth]

Anyone notice the OP has had nothing to say since starting this thread?

 

[Sukerkin]

Often the way of things when Pirates and Ninja are about ... arrrh! ... hiiyaah!

 

[heretic888]

Cue heretic888.

But I like lurking!! :ninja:

Oh, all right.....

Given the less than sound historical background for the sheer existence of ninja's in the first place (not on about the 'style' here, so no shruiken up my bum please),

*holds breath*

Nochi Kagami, Go Kagami, Bansenshukai, Shoninki, Ninpiden, Iranki, the diary of a 16th century Todai-ji monk.....

*releases breath*

Just to name a few.

 

[bydand]

:lfao: I really, really hope this is just a spoof site. It has to be a bunch of college age kids doing this instead of their class work. This is some really funny stuff, did anybody watch the "training videos"? I liked the training photos myself. There be some comely wenches there matie, Arrrr. The don't look at all like the STD riddled prostitutes you normally think of as pirate's women :angel:.

 

[Sukerkin]

Cheers, Heretic. I'll look into those.

Like I said to Bandit, I've been studying Japanese history for twenty years or more and have never come across a source that was convincing.

I have come to hold the 'more myth than reality' view given that no serious history that I've read gave credence to the existence of Ninja Clans as a 'secret' strata of Japanese society. Of course, as maybe your noted references will prove, it is not beyond the bounds of possibility that I just haven't read the right texts.

 

[tellner]

Yep. "Unproven" is the best I've heard.

And of course there was that little incident where the government said to some malcontents "Come in from the cold. The Secret Police are looking for a few good men. No road tolls for you and your family, steady work and a government pension. Besides you get to wear funny hats and carry around a shakuhachi."

Money. Get hunted down and killed. Pension. Get hunted down and killed. A break on my taxes. Get hunted down and killed.

No-brainer, isn't it?