OkinawaPeichin
Yellow Belt
That's interesting. Is there any documentation to support this any other source other than your instructor's say so?
Bujinkan took many techniques from Pirates
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That's interesting. Is there any documentation to support this any other source other than your instructor's say so?
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Look, we should be willing to entertain any hypothesis (especially if it's willing to drink a few beers with me as part of the entertainment), no matter how... um... superficially outlandish and bizarre, say... if it leads to an explanation for something that we didn't understand, and doesn't face any major factual contradictions, right? I mean, we're all men and women of the world, we know that all sorts of strange things have happened, etc. etc.
But here's my problem with the hypothesis that the Bujinkan got their techs from pirates: it creates more problems for explanation than it solves. Sure, there were pirates all over the South China Sea, the Sea of Japan and the open north Pacific. Yes, they put into port in Japan. But they also put into port in Korea, China, Okinawa, Indonesia and all kinds of places. Would we not conclude, on the basis of the same reasoning as the OP, that there may/must have been substantial transmission of techniques to these places too?? And just looking at Japan: why was it just the Bujinkan that got its techs from the pirates?? The communities typically associated with the ninja professions were not the most obvious ports of call for pirates; in fact, they were notoriously inaccessible. Wouldn't we expect to find the pirate arts, whatever they were, much more abundantly represented in places where pirates themselve were much more likely to frequent, such as the main southern coastal ports? In other words, why would pirate arts only show up in the Bujinkan, when the Wokou and other pirates were familiar visitors up and down the Japanese coast????
One logical answer is that these pirate arts are indeed also present elsewhere in the pirate sphere of navigation—in the KMAs, CMAs, FMAs, etc. Maybe so. But which ones? Jiujutsu techs, Bujinkan techs and CMA techs, so far as I can see, look sufficiently different from each other that those who want to extract a common MA framework that can be attributed to pirates have their work cut out for them. And the larger question is, what work does the hypothesis of pirate influence in this case do? What problem does it solve that otherwise would trouble us about the MAs?
That's why it's... kind of... hard to keep a straight...f-f-f-face... th-thinking about this whole idea ... :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :roflmao:
...:gasp:... sorry... was trying hard not to crack up...b-b-but... :rofl: :rofl:...
But here's my problem with the hypothesis that the Bujinkan got their techs from pirates: it creates more problems for explanation than it solves. Sure, there were pirates all over the South China Sea, the Sea of Japan and the open north Pacific. Yes, they put into port in Japan. But they also put into port in Korea, China, Okinawa, Indonesia and all kinds of places. Would we not conclude, on the basis of the same reasoning as the OP, that there may/must have been substantial transmission of techniques to these places too?? And just looking at Japan: why was it just the Bujinkan that got its techs from the pirates?? The communities typically associated with the ninja professions were not the most obvious ports of call for pirates; in fact, they were notoriously inaccessible. Wouldn't we expect to find the pirate arts, whatever they were, much more abundantly represented in places where pirates themselve were much more likely to frequent, such as the main southern coastal ports? In other words, why would pirate arts only show up in the Bujinkan, when the Wokou and other pirates were familiar visitors up and down the Japanese coast????
One logical answer is that these pirate arts are indeed also present elsewhere in the pirate sphere of navigation—in the KMAs, CMAs, FMAs, etc. Maybe so. But which ones? Jiujutsu techs, Bujinkan techs and CMA techs, so far as I can see, look sufficiently different from each other that those who want to extract a common MA framework that can be attributed to pirates have their work cut out for them. And the larger question is, what work does the hypothesis of pirate influence in this case do? What problem does it solve that otherwise would trouble us about the MAs?
That's why it's... kind of... hard to keep a straight...f-f-f-face... th-thinking about this whole idea ... :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :roflmao:
...:gasp:... sorry... was trying hard not to crack up...b-b-but... :rofl: :rofl:...
TimoS
Master of Arts
I just watched the epic battle of pirates vs. Ashida Kim ninjas! Unfortunately I'm at work so I can't laugh out loud, but man it was a struggle watching that!
It MUST be a joke!
OkinawaPeichin
Yellow Belt
Why should we entertain any hypothesis that’s not supported by at least some facts. If that’s the criteria then I support the hypothesis that ninjas learned their stuff from aliens. There is nothing to support this idea but someone ninja teacher told me it was true and I believe them.
[FONT="]I find this whole pirate hypothesis a bit hard to swallow since I have yet to see any facts to support such a theory and also for the fact that Japan was an extremely difficult place to enter by ship. Again, I can’t even consider this idea of pirates teaching techniques let alone entering Japan unless there is at the bare minimum a scrap of information point to that direction. [/FONT]
I too find it difficult to consider a Piratical Dojo (tho' the wenches and grog would be a warming addition on a winters night 
).
What I said earlier about Inland Sea pirates being utilised by 'legitimate' authority was not fever-induced hogwash tho' (as indeed it has been the case around the globe at many times and places for the outlaw to become the 'papered' tool of a government).
Still not evidence for a Pirate Dojo but it may be a useful thought experiment to consider that not many pirates were born that and not all stayed that. So there is scope for a person of some martial talent falling from grace, drifting into piratical pursuits and then refinding favour.
Who knows what skills transfer could happen under those circumstances? It's an entertaining pipedream if nothing else, just like the whole Hollywood enhanced cliche of ninja, just a shade more rooted in possibility.
).What I said earlier about Inland Sea pirates being utilised by 'legitimate' authority was not fever-induced hogwash tho' (as indeed it has been the case around the globe at many times and places for the outlaw to become the 'papered' tool of a government).
Still not evidence for a Pirate Dojo but it may be a useful thought experiment to consider that not many pirates were born that and not all stayed that. So there is scope for a person of some martial talent falling from grace, drifting into piratical pursuits and then refinding favour.
Who knows what skills transfer could happen under those circumstances? It's an entertaining pipedream if nothing else, just like the whole Hollywood enhanced cliche of ninja, just a shade more rooted in possibility.
Steel Tiger
Senior Master
These pirates of the Inland Sea are they the ones known as Waco? I know that the Waco were raiding the Chinese coast possibly on behalf of some authority in Japan.
OkinawaPeichin makes a good point about it being difficult for foreigners to land in Japan without permission. If some rough-looking pirates from places west rolled up and landed they would have been arrested not asked to show the guy over there in the shadows some of their moves.
Ninjas and pirates, why not add in some Roman legionares or Norse berserkers (Viking combat)? The very notion that a pirate crew might have some sort of regimented training program they could pass on is a little strange, alright its more than a little strange, unless we are talking about using cannon. They were so dangerous that they needed regimented training programs or the crews could be killed.
I don't know if anyone else has noticed this (internet troubles have meant that I have not been able to red the whole thread effectively) but is it possible, given the change that went through Pirate Combat in its later incarnation, that the similarity between it and Bujinkan is a result of adding karate or kobujutsu to Pirate Combat rather than some weird pirate influence from the 15th or 16th century.
Don't ask me why I keep being drawn to this thread . I just love the notion of playing What If games with history I suppose .
In defence of pirates, as with ninja, Hollywood has done it's work on them well. A privateer crew was indeed very disciplined and motivated, if somewhat more individualistic and democratic than a Royal Navy crew. As to training, the members were usually already highly skilled and trained when they fell into pirate ways and they kept up those skills because their livelyhood depended on it. Now of course I'm speaking of 'our' pirates when I say that but Ihave no reason to presume that those in Japanese waters were any less so. You only have to read something like Turnbull's "Samurai invasion" to get an inkling of how much of a bother these chaps were.
. I just love the notion of playing What If games with history I suppose .In defence of pirates, as with ninja, Hollywood has done it's work on them well. A privateer crew was indeed very disciplined and motivated, if somewhat more individualistic and democratic than a Royal Navy crew. As to training, the members were usually already highly skilled and trained when they fell into pirate ways and they kept up those skills because their livelyhood depended on it. Now of course I'm speaking of 'our' pirates when I say that but Ihave no reason to presume that those in Japanese waters were any less so. You only have to read something like Turnbull's "Samurai invasion" to get an inkling of how much of a bother these chaps were.
Obliquity
Green Belt
"If you are interested in authentic pirate training with qualified pirates then this is the place for you."
Qualified pirates???
Also - the female white belt training video was incredibly instructive. As was noted above, I was not aware pirates had a belt / ranking system.
Don't even get me started on swashing my buckler to attract hot wenches. Don't knock it lest you've tried it!
Qualified pirates???
Also - the female white belt training video was incredibly instructive. As was noted above, I was not aware pirates had a belt / ranking system.
Don't even get me started on swashing my buckler to attract hot wenches. Don't knock it lest you've tried it!
OkinawaPeichin
Yellow Belt
I wasn't aware Ninjas had belts either
Nobody had belts.
That's why they had to swash their buckles... their pants kept falling down!
OK...
I know...
Be serious.
I have been. I doubt that, either in the East or West, there was a dedicated "pirate" school or approach to martial arts. Instead, I suspect that they simply used the existing principles of hand-to-hand combat and ship-to-ship combat of the times.
OkinawaPeichin
Yellow Belt
I just can't see people in Japan looking to "pirates" when there were so many different and good martial arts styles already around.
Just seems like a dumb concept to me
Quite right, Tellner but it has been fun n'est pas?
newtothe dark
Purple Belt
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This has been a great thread with good jokes and some serious input as well. Much better than the flame threads much better reading!!!
OP
forumtengu
White Belt
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Yaaaaarrr I agree!!
With what?
I'd love to hear more about how you feel that pirate combat is reflected in the Bujinkan training syllabus.
Heck, I'd love to hear more about this pirate combat!
If you stare into the Bujinkan symbol long enough, like the ink blot test. you can kinda sorta see a sailing ship, uh kinda sorta
Ok you gotta sorta unfocus your eyes. But it's there.
blood shadow
Yellow Belt
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ah yes teenage mutant ninja pirates.
Just so happens I brought my book "An Introductory History to The Schools Of The Bujinkan" with me to the office. I am currently reading the section regarding Kukishin/Kukishinden Ryu and it says...
"Teachings from this school were employed by Japanese seamen to help protect them against pirates." It seems to me this was more about about using various items on deck as weapons and also defend against them. However the only connection I see is there were pirates that needed to be repelled.
Just some of my initial thoughts as I read through the book.
