Bruce Juchnik

[kelly keltner]

Please sir tell me how this Happened. I thought Al Reyes died in 1977. The same year John Leoning died. Bruce Juchnik did not meet mitose until late 1977. So what year was the tournament again? What did you see? Who else that was at this tournament that can back what you saw and did? If it was a large tournament then there must be some of your contemporaries that can coroborate your story. Why don't you call Mr. Juchnik so you both can stroll down good old memory lane and remind him of a tournament he never attended put on by a man who's lifespan only overlapped the timespan Juchnik knew Mitose by 2-3 months, and was viewed by many people, none of which have come forth to support your story bub.

kelly

 

[kelly keltner]

Doc:

I don't know that the buffet was all that great. The company was awesome, but the MSG hand-swelling and tummy ache were profound.

As for GAB, Keltner (sp?) etc...My limited experience with Mr. Juchnik is that he has a vested interest in painting himself in the best possible ongoing light at any given point in time. My experience with Doc has been quite the opposite: what you see is what you get, and if you don't like it, go ahead and slink back to the comfortable ignorance in which you find your bliss, and train there till the sun burns out. Unopen minds are incapable of assimilating new information, and are useless to instructors of Docs caliber.

Doc, if you're unfortunate enough to not know (as he is unlikely to toot his own horn except in cryptic inferences) is one of the maybe half-dozen kenpo seniors with any degree of internally consistent integrity, and -- to date -- the only one I know of to maintain his commitment to Mr. Parker by remaining active with the Family, and supporting them in thier own struggles. Having seen Mr. Juchnik in person and on tape, I would be glad to venture that Mr. Chapel has a much deeper, more profound understanding of the intricacies of kenpo/kempo done well then folks such as Juchnik will ever grasp until they meet with him. Mr. Chapel does not seek recognition, wealth, or fame throgh his teachings. In fact, one would be hard put to locate him on the web with videos, and the like. Mr. Juchnik, on the other hand, is everywhere (vested interest?)

I used to think Mr. Bruce had a corner on something quite valuable. Years pass, and now I believe him to be an opportunist attempting to translate his prison interviews into a claim of possession of the holy grail of kenpo. Trouble is, many of his yudansha look lost in motion, missing something in the translation. Likely because there wasn't much of substance to learn.

Considering that apples don't fall far from trees, Mr. Mitose's skills left many of EKP's students underwhelmed when he showed to train with them in Pasadena in the early days. Robert Perry recounted Mitose coming like a train, and very hard to stop or match on a straight frontal clash. Catch? Kenpo didn't fight toe to toe in straight lines...angle changes with counter-attacks to open targets, and these young american black belts were peppering him as he motored on by.

There were a few around in the day when Mitose was active, and few of them had anything constructive to say about him; very few compliments on his martial prowess. I think there is a need to mystify the memories and skills of those who have gone before, in order to feel better about the path we are on. Recently, people were scampering to pay respects to GM kuoha, because he deigned to address the froum on issues pertaining to Chow. I remained, still, underwhelmed for several reasons. First, every bit of footage or picture sequence I've seen of GM Kuoha of his daughter has demonstrated disconnected basics, seemingly delivered haphazardly and without prior planning for cumulative effect. Clean and hard, but unrelated. No "playing the accordion" I've come to appreciate from kenpo & kajukenbo. Second, I've heard from many sources who were there, that Chow was progresslively plagued by alzheimers type episodes with remaining residuals, progressivly worsening. At about the time Idi Amin was in the news, there were several people relating incidents of Chow wandering the beaches, stapling bottle caps to his gi and showing off his medals.

Are a convicted felon and mental health patient worthy of our undying mythical respect?

Juchnik perfoms Kempo with the addition of super-secret info he managed to glean from Mr. Mitose via a handful of conversations. If, in fact, GM Mitose had a sceptor of data to pass, it would have properly taken the better part of 15 years intense training, one on one, hours a day, several days a week. All to learn information that could not possibly be transferred without the feedback mechanism of human touch. Luxuries Mr. Juchnik did not have access to.

Parker was an inventor and innovator, as well. But at east that's how he comported himself...not as the rightful heir to the mighty chain belt in one-hung-low kung fu. I've said before, I'd rather own a Pitbull/Mastiff mix without AKC papers, then a toy poodle with proper pedigree. All kenpo pedigree is suspect, and likely crap. Some kenpo practitioners simply have abetter understanding of the mechanics of motion then others. Having seen and met both Doc and Bruce, I will choose Doc's unique and highly sophisticated (yet decietfully simple) approach to kenpo. And no, GAB, I am not a student of his. Yet. But if lucky, I will be. He is one of the few disciples of the old man I've ever seen who actually moves with the speed, authority and ownership the old man had. Note: It is not Juchnik I'm interested in training with.

I heard a story recently about a day Mitose's "son" (not necessarily his blood son) demoed at a tourney. All lined up to see, becaue this was supposed to be the purest remaining expression of the kenpo taught by the founder of our clans as the exist today. By more then one account, the room was silent not in awe, but in disbelief and dissapointment. How could a prime heir do so poorly? Of course, many rated his performance highly, since he was an heir-apparent. Few had the resolve to call what they saw, and were criticized for it. It appears not everyone is ready to admit the emporer has no clothes.

I, for one, can avoid Mr. Juchnik's teachings until in the fullness fo years and the due passage of time, it becomes my turn to slip from this mortal plate to the next. Only my opinion, but then again, isn't that all we ever have? Salvation rests in some of them being better informed than others.

Regards,

Dave

You heard a story; isn't that hearsay? Doc we need a rulling on this one, but I don't know about that one since Doc is problably the one who told the story to begin with.

 

[kelly keltner]

Doc:

I don't know that the buffet was all that great. The company was awesome, but the MSG hand-swelling and tummy ache were profound.

As for GAB, Keltner (sp?) etc...My limited experience with Mr. Juchnik is that he has a vested interest in painting himself in the best possible ongoing light at any given point in time. My experience with Doc has been quite the opposite: what you see is what you get, and if you don't like it, go ahead and slink back to the comfortable ignorance in which you find your bliss, and train there till the sun burns out. Unopen minds are incapable of assimilating new information, and are useless to instructors of Docs caliber.

Doc, if you're unfortunate enough to not know (as he is unlikely to toot his own horn except in cryptic inferences) is one of the maybe half-dozen kenpo seniors with any degree of internally consistent integrity, and -- to date -- the only one I know of to maintain his commitment to Mr. Parker by remaining active with the Family, and supporting them in thier own struggles. Having seen Mr. Juchnik in person and on tape, I would be glad to venture that Mr. Chapel has a much deeper, more profound understanding of the intricacies of kenpo/kempo done well then folks such as Juchnik will ever grasp until they meet with him. Mr. Chapel does not seek recognition, wealth, or fame throgh his teachings. In fact, one would be hard put to locate him on the web with videos, and the like. Mr. Juchnik, on the other hand, is everywhere (vested interest?)

I used to think Mr. Bruce had a corner on something quite valuable. Years pass, and now I believe him to be an opportunist attempting to translate his prison interviews into a claim of possession of the holy grail of kenpo. Trouble is, many of his yudansha look lost in motion, missing something in the translation. Likely because there wasn't much of substance to learn.

Considering that apples don't fall far from trees, Mr. Mitose's skills left many of EKP's students underwhelmed when he showed to train with them in Pasadena in the early days. Robert Perry recounted Mitose coming like a train, and very hard to stop or match on a straight frontal clash. Catch? Kenpo didn't fight toe to toe in straight lines...angle changes with counter-attacks to open targets, and these young american black belts were peppering him as he motored on by.

There were a few around in the day when Mitose was active, and few of them had anything constructive to say about him; very few compliments on his martial prowess. I think there is a need to mystify the memories and skills of those who have gone before, in order to feel better about the path we are on. Recently, people were scampering to pay respects to GM kuoha, because he deigned to address the froum on issues pertaining to Chow. I remained, still, underwhelmed for several reasons. First, every bit of footage or picture sequence I've seen of GM Kuoha of his daughter has demonstrated disconnected basics, seemingly delivered haphazardly and without prior planning for cumulative effect. Clean and hard, but unrelated. No "playing the accordion" I've come to appreciate from kenpo & kajukenbo. Second, I've heard from many sources who were there, that Chow was progresslively plagued by alzheimers type episodes with remaining residuals, progressivly worsening. At about the time Idi Amin was in the news, there were several people relating incidents of Chow wandering the beaches, stapling bottle caps to his gi and showing off his medals.

Are a convicted felon and mental health patient worthy of our undying mythical respect?

Juchnik perfoms Kempo with the addition of super-secret info he managed to glean from Mr. Mitose via a handful of conversations. If, in fact, GM Mitose had a sceptor of data to pass, it would have properly taken the better part of 15 years intense training, one on one, hours a day, several days a week. All to learn information that could not possibly be transferred without the feedback mechanism of human touch. Luxuries Mr. Juchnik did not have access to.

Parker was an inventor and innovator, as well. But at east that's how he comported himself...not as the rightful heir to the mighty chain belt in one-hung-low kung fu. I've said before, I'd rather own a Pitbull/Mastiff mix without AKC papers, then a toy poodle with proper pedigree. All kenpo pedigree is suspect, and likely crap. Some kenpo practitioners simply have abetter understanding of the mechanics of motion then others. Having seen and met both Doc and Bruce, I will choose Doc's unique and highly sophisticated (yet decietfully simple) approach to kenpo. And no, GAB, I am not a student of his. Yet. But if lucky, I will be. He is one of the few disciples of the old man I've ever seen who actually moves with the speed, authority and ownership the old man had. Note: It is not Juchnik I'm interested in training with.

I heard a story recently about a day Mitose's "son" (not necessarily his blood son) demoed at a tourney. All lined up to see, becaue this was supposed to be the purest remaining expression of the kenpo taught by the founder of our clans as the exist today. By more then one account, the room was silent not in awe, but in disbelief and dissapointment. How could a prime heir do so poorly? Of course, many rated his performance highly, since he was an heir-apparent. Few had the resolve to call what they saw, and were criticized for it. It appears not everyone is ready to admit the emporer has no clothes.

I, for one, can avoid Mr. Juchnik's teachings until in the fullness fo years and the due passage of time, it becomes my turn to slip from this mortal plate to the next. Only my opinion, but then again, isn't that all we ever have? Salvation rests in some of them being better informed than others.

Regards,

Dave

Hey Dave show me where Mr. Juuchnik claims to have the holy grail of kenpo. I'll be the first to admit the whole James mitose taught me in prison story sounds fishy but, Mr. Juchnik was already a proficient martial artist when he met Mitose. So if Mitose told him to study certains sujects such as timing and distancing visual plane and then Bruce expands his knowledge on those subjects and how to apply them in a martial sense. Then if Mitose says go seek out certain people who are experts in different areas and learn from them Trias, Young as well as others, and what little physical training was allowed given the setting. I would say that Bruce Juchnik was taught a lot of things when he visited him or was at least directed to where to go to in order to learn them. Ther are no secrets in the arts Hanshi Juchnik teaches. There is no mojo, there is only study. The fact is that Mitose chose to leave what he considered his art to Bruce Juchnik is Between Bruce and his teacher. What I know is there is considerable proof by the way of interviews, and a forensic handwriting report that bear these facts out. I will make my same offer to you that I made to Mad Doc and John bishop. Would you like to talk to Mr. Juchnik about your opinions and your facts? Would you like to see his documentation? I can arrange that for you.

Kelly

 

[Rob Broad]

kelly keltner

Why is it that you keep insisting Doc call Mr Juchnik, if it is that much of a thorn in your side why don't you give Doc a call and discuss it on the phone, maybe even have a 3 way call. I have been fortunate to have exchanged emails with Doc in the past and I for 1 respect him. He isn't hiding behind others sporting claims to greatness and giving heresay about the old days, he was there. He was there with Ed Parker and knows the score.

This thread has become quite tiresome, so if you want to resolve things with Doc do it on the phone instead of wasting space on a good board with dirty laundry.

 

[GAB]

To Rob Broad.
The point is 1977 Al Reyes died.. Get It? Prior to Hanshi meeting Mitose..Get it,
Bored or not, the story is growing because it is not true, lets embellish it somemore. Ron Chapel can be the greatest, he and I have no anomosity.
But he is wrong on this one. Period..
In a case of law it would be thrown out because of the tainted vine, so no good fruit.. Get it.. If you don't the law professor will explain it further I am sure. Memories sometime play tricks.
Kell, old buddy give it a rest.. Lies beget more lies.. Get it Rob???
Regards, Gary

 

[kelly keltner]

Who is hiding sir? I am here. If doc wants to talk to me he can send me his # in a private message and I will call him. I don't think I have ever really shown disrespect to him. In fact I seem to be the on having to defend myself against Mitose worship. When I stated on at least one I do not condone or endorse Mitose's criminal activities. I think you should find my post on legitimacy and read it so you can get a clear read on where I am coming from. Furthermore Doc made statements about seeing Mr. Juchnik perform kata; not only did the timeframe make it highly unlikely that the event ever took place, and no one else who was there has come forth to support such a statement. Not to mention the fact that Mr. Juchnik says he was never there. So If you sir do not care for this thread don't read or reply to it. What would make you happy that I be silent and watch doc write things that just plain aren't true, and that can only be defended if people are silent. Are you worshiping at the altar of doc? The popular phrase is that"doc lived it". Wait just a minute slick Mr. Juchnik also lived it and has interviews and other documentation. So who is being raised to status of deity? Who 's word is being deemed beyond reproach? And all I ask is for the person who makes these ugly yellow statements is to stand up be accountable, and talk to the person they are accusing. I have gone so far as to invite the good doctor to Mr. Juchnick's yearly event. Not out of spite or malice, but out of friendship. So he could see the good work and growth that Hanshi Juchnik has worked to achieve. So what do I get for my efforts shot down, insulted and hammered. I get told that he doesn't care and that he wont reply on the subject anymore. Then he proceeds to do exactly opposite of what he said he'd do. So what do I say, call Mr. Juchnik would love to talk to ya.

 

[kelly keltner]

To Rob Broad.
The point is 1977 Al Reyes died.. Get It? Prior to Hanshi meeting Mitose..Get it,
Bored or not, the story is growing because it is not true, lets embellish it somemore. Ron Chapel can be the greatest, he and I have no anomosity.
But he is wrong on this one. Period..
In a case of law it would be thrown out because of the tainted vine, so no good fruit.. Get it.. If you don't the law professor will explain it further I am sure. Memories sometime play tricks.
Kell, old buddy give it a rest.. Lies beget more lies.. Get it Rob???
Regards, Gary

"I have not yet begun to defile myself" Doc Holiday from the movie Tombstone
kell

 

[Seig]

ADMIN WARNING

Keep this discussion polite and respectful.
-SEIG-
-MT Operational Admin-

 

[kelly keltner]

Some clarification please Who is being warned? gab or kelly . I know your just doing your job. Were my movie quotes offensive? Just trying to be funny.
kelly

 

[KenpoTess]

It was a General 'To All Participants of the Thread' Warning.

~Tess
-MT. S. Mod-

 

[Michael Billings]

Not as a Mod here, but as a reader and member, I was going to specifically say something about the sarcasm. It is fine to support either position, however the tone in which that is done should not be condesending or sarcastic "get it" repeatedly is just one example.

To Rob Broad.
The point is 1977 Al Reyes died.. Get It? Prior to Hanshi meeting Mitose..Get it,
Bored or not, the story is growing because it is not true, lets embellish it somemore. Ron Chapel can be the greatest, he and I have no anomosity.
But he is wrong on this one. Period..
In a case of law it would be thrown out because of the tainted vine, so no good fruit.. Get it.. If you don't the law professor will explain it further I am sure. Memories sometime play tricks.
Kell, old buddy give it a rest.. Lies beget more lies.. Get it Rob???
Regards, Gary

Italics and underlines added for emphasis on those points I interpret as sarcastic or condesending.

-Michael

 

[DavidCC]

It seems possible to me that 24 years ago, prior to his meeting Mitose in prison, the performance Mr Juchnik gave at that tournament, did in fact, suck. If you deny the _possibility_ of this, then you are not being logical.

Doc Chapel never said that the tournament was before or after Mitose and Juchnik got together, so trying to prove that the performance never happened by referring to the date of Mr Reyes death is again, illogical.

Perhaps Mr. Juchnik did suck in 1977, then later Mitose had some conversations with him about kenpo, then he practiced for 24 years, and now he doesn't suck. Duhhhhhh. I would hope that after 24 years of practice that somebody would suck less than they did before.

-David

 

[GAB]

Hey, Tater salad! hows Tater Tot?? Cover it with cheese and then they will eat it.. "Ron White"

If it is a duck and quacks like a duck, must be duck. Get the shotgun honey, it's dinner time.. "Lots of duck lovers.".

He that cannot reason is a fool, he that will not is a bigot, he that dare not is a slave. "more people then you can imagine"...

If you want to make enemies, try to change something, Woodrow Wilson.

Trying to change someones character is harder than to move a mountain.. (before earth movers) "Kung Fu Tsu" ... Or... It is easier to Move a mountain then to change the Character of a Man , "Same as above."

You can fool some of the people, some of the time, some of the people all the time..But.. You can't fool all the people all the time.. Honest Abe..I love that guy, gave his all, and look what it has gotten us...Gary A. Brewer.

History is written by the guy who wants to tell his side of the story at least 50% of the time, the trick is to be able to know which 50% is the truth..
Regards, Gary

 

[KenpoTess]

Gary.. you're making my head 'splode~!!!

 

[GAB]

I beg to differ about sarcasam, those are not sacrcastic. it is a statement.

Redundent, yes but not sarcastic..

Do you understand, get it, I just showed you a move, get it.. Get it.. Short for do you get it?? Can you understand what I am saying.

Then we have someone else saying, well he still sucks because Doc said so..

Fine, But I am sorry, in my opinion Doc was not there and neither was Hanshi.

Remember there were not a lot of Blacks ( I have never met the man nor seen him I am going on hearsay, am I wrong) in that date and time I am sure that person would stand out in the crowd, and not by his 5 on a rating card, that did not happen.

It happened as the story was embellished not in the original attack (opinion) He, can have One (Doc) an (opinion), I can't refute his nastyness with a statement and a back up, of get it.. Ok..
Not sacastic.. I knew and was waiting for the attacks.. Throw it to a review, Bring in John Bishop, what he say's I will bend to.. Yours in Kajukenbo..
Ok Doc???
Regards, Gary

 

[rmcrobertson]

I've no idea about how well Mr. Juchnik moves, nor do I particularly care.

However, I strongly object to the implicit racism in this last post, which calls Ron Chap'el a liar and specifically grounds its reasons for that claim upon his being, "Black."

I also wasn't there. But I believe the story, because it tells me that then--as now--there's too damn much of the emperor's new clothes in kenpo. I've personally seen more than one, "senior," in kenpo who can't move for beans, and whose form sucks. Fortunately, I've also seen more than ten of them who have wonderful form, and who can snatch a bean out of my hand any time they want. And while I haven't met him and have disagreed with him right from the get-go, I've never seen any evidence that Ron Chap'el lies.

I also believe the story--at least as an allegory--because I'm familiar with the structure of nonsense. There's way too much idolizing going on; the attempts to legitimate learning Mystic Secrets through prison bars are ludicrous; there's no solid evidence presented that Mitose (who lost, "Mr.," so far as I'm concerned, when he got into conspiracy to commit murder on two elderly people) knew very much at all. Then too, there's way too much, "knows more than most martial artists learn in a lifetime," and "knows 200+ kata," and assorted other attempts at compelling agreement with sheer numbers--you know, like Nixon used to do--"The FBI has investigated over 1,263 reports, submitted over 32,119 pages of report, catalogued in excess 0f 243, 675 pieces of forensic evidence, and I can tell you categorically that this Administration has been cleared of all connections to the Watergate burglars."

I suspect, too, that some posters are going by hearsay, not direct experience, anyway.

And anyway, who the hell cares? As has been mentioned, it is presently impossible to disentangle fact from fiction in martial arts history generally, let alone in kenpo, given a) the hype; b) the lack of evidence; c) the secrecy; d) the fantasies; e) the politics; f) the oedipal games; g) the self-promotion....it'll take some real scholarly types (hey, John Bishop...whaddya doing for the next five years? want to collaborate?) sitting down with lots of time and support, and even then, it's going to be extraordinarily difficult. Because in my professional opinion--and yes, insofar as scholarship is concerned, I can legitimately give one--most of the stuff that gets passed off as scholarship in martial arts is laughable.

And anyway, who cares. Don't follow leaders, watch your parking meters, I say. Shouldn't folks be worried about what THEY can do, not what their kenpo great-granddaddy can do? Shouldn't teachers be teaching self-reliance and a commitment to study, not adoration? Shouldn't we be looking at our history and its tangles with a skeptical, knowing eye, not searching for little brass ikons?

Sorry. That last post cheesed me off. I'm sure that "GAB," will shoot back a claim that they didn't mean anything by it, which is just what always happens. But this is the sort of thing you get, when you go off on these sorts of threads, which seem designed only to sing paeans to the Gods.

 

[Rob Broad]

I DO understand the the evidentiary process, and I do understand the concept of tainted evidence, and I do get it. I can also take sarcasm very well, but I do suggest that if a person wants to make attacks at me take it to either email or private messages, but be warned don't come to a battle of wits unarmed.

 

[GAB]

Rm and Rob, just read the posts of Doc and Mine forget the others.
I meant what I said and I stand by it, who cares, I care about what I said.
I care about what Doc said. I don't care what you are saying because you are
incorrect about what I said. Like Clyde would say, Have a good Kenpo day..
Regards, Gary.... Ps, Rm I am surprised you didn't say I was Presario, I talked to Doc about that and it is something that has been going on in one form or another, for along time..
Besides Rm, you never did answer my question. Cat got your tongue??G

 

[Rob Broad]

Gab

Please tell me what I said that was incorrect? And I suspect there would be a lot less animosity towards you if you toned down your attitude towards other people.

I, like many others here on MT usually respond to better with people who don't hide behind anonimity, fill out your profile and let people know who they are talking to.

 

[GAB]

Rob, now that is what I call a taunt, which by Webster is sarcasm.. I am not being sarcastic. you are Sir. Bring your Dictionary to the class before you throw taunts at me and call my statements Sarcasm, then run off to the monitors and say what you will..
You have already violated the first article of Kenpo as Will Tracy has said in the past about SGMEP. You know the more I read the more I believe Will..
As far as a deity, Talk to clyde about that one, like I said before, for all the Mormons and others, I am an Agnostic.. So take your best shot Rob. My History is a lot more solid then the Mormons is, I go back to pre Revolutionary and then some, I have been under the gun for so many years this is kids play.. Take Care, Gary