Bringing back old school karate

[Rook]

The do-gi, Kano's creation, was not.

It was designed specifically for training as I understand it, created white because dye's where expensive. Everyone wearing the same gi was a way to remove "class" from training, no fancy clothes vs peasant clothes.

Now it may resemble clothes worn at the time, which makes sense. But, the do-gi was created specifically for Judo, then adapted to karate.

Kano eventually started having his yudansha where black belts to distinguish them, not because there belts got dirty.

Well, kimonos were often worn during martial arts training prior to the modern era. During more intense periods of training, the participants would often strip down to their undergarments. Judo, with it emphasis on competitive practice, meant that few wore their kimonos because of the heat. The fact that it was easier to grip a kimono than undergarments meant that it was a futher disadvantage. Kano eventually decided that training in underwear was A) not promoting the image he wanted as a gentleman's art B) not standardized and C) resulting in frequently damaged clothes. He created a standardized stronger version of traditional undergarments - the Gi.

I have heard the "class warfare" theory debunked many times. Kano made a point of trying to recruit the social elite and did not take steps to make the poor feel more comfortable in his training hall - it's hardly the reason for the gi. There are more extensive discussions of this elsewhere.

Kano's BBs were used to distinguish those who were qualified to correct technique from those who had not yet proven such a capability to him - most his BBs were from JJJ schools rather than promoted within the Judo framework.

Colored belts came into being in France - it a matter of some debate as to who origionally came up with the idea, but they ranked judo students competitive prowess and later other things. From there it spread back to Japan and was eventually standardized.

The Karate gi comes from the Judo gi because Funakoshi's classes had many Judoka, who wore their gi in an attempt to distinguish themselves from non-judoists in the karate class. Eventually, seeking to standardize apparel, Funakoshi told all his students to buy judo gi. The belts spread in a similar manner. The karate gi has changed little, while to some extent the judo gi has evolved, but thats a whole new thread.

 

[Dark]

Colored belts came into being in France - it a matter of some debate as to who origionally came up with the idea, but they ranked judo students competitive prowess and later other things. From there it spread back to Japan and was eventually standardized.

I thought Kano has visited a boarding shool (France perhaps) in Europe where different class wore different colored jackets and addapted the belt system from that.

The Karate gi comes from the Judo gi because Funakoshi's classes had many Judoka, who wore their gi in an attempt to distinguish themselves from non-judoists in the karate class. Eventually, seeking to standardize apparel, Funakoshi told all his students to buy judo gi. The belts spread in a similar manner. The karate gi has changed little, while to some extent the judo gi has evolved, but thats a whole new thread.

I also heard Funakoshi was told to adapt both the belt system and the gi to make the art of karate, more Japanese. But I never met either of the two and I'm not an expert on such politcal history.

 

[Dark]

Ok here is what I got for old school Karate frame work...

No Belt system...
No excessive kata, about 6 core kata...
Heavy Focus on Fighting, not sport or kata...
Heavier focus on personal responsibility...
Focus on training the basics...

What else we need..?

 

[Robert Lee]

Yes the white gi we see more or less in today time Is from that time. And yes the concept of the color was from the ageing of the belt This was what I was told years ago. I believe it. And the students at first was given a black belt it represented there time in study. Far as judo That is where the belt system basicly came from. It was not around early and Before Judo the used realy no speical uniform. Judo is a more modern art after As aikdo is not related in training but both derive froman other art making them softer But they are effective. Karate arts are much older the original ones anyway are. Others came what after 1926. Before the M/A arts Was not about showing ranks modern ranks belts came from change to the M/A world. change that led it to be trained in a different way then before. Change that led it to be taught to children in scools to people who would have never took it up It was becomeing out dated as the world changed. It is so much easyer to train with a gun and the old timers new they had to make changes to share there art and keep the zen concept alive. M/A was not for every one. New kata made it easyer to learn easyer to except the training. bUt it made it softer because it now put sport into its training Just like today. It really is not very often or ever one would use a M/a on a street as things have changed We have more Law. we have guns. Yes from time to time one might need it. Train it right you can use it until then you just train it because you like the M/A. There are fights every day But most M/A people are not out looking or doing something that may make them need to fight. And most people that train in any fighting way fight less on the streets. But like a soldier you train And use it only when you have too.

 

[D.Cobb]

But the art is fighting, and you are your own worst enemy. Allot of MMA guys don't want to go around bullying people, they want to test there metal, so to speak. I grow up with the challenge match attitude, and I have no problem with being challenged. So I understand that mentality, but there are some who want to mis-use that knowledge in any martial art. I just don't plan to judge the few louder children as the guys who just wonna shut and train in something they know will work.

The problem that most people have when it comes to old school stuff, is like you say, they want to know that it will work. That's where MMA comes in.

The way my instructor puts it, and his english isn't that good, is, "if you look for the logic in kata, you will not find it and you will not learn true karate."

You are supposed to train kata, by following the principles of the kata, the techniques and bunkai will become apparent with time, but should only be trained to enhance your knowledge of the principles inherent in that kata.

When the time comes that you have to turn it on, the kata will come out and you won't even have to think about it. Basically, it's the definition of Faith. It is the belief in things not yet seen.

If you train it and trust it, it will work. You will be a Martial Artist.
Or, go and learn MMA or sport karate or boxing etc. and you will know what works, without the need for faith and you will be a fighter.

One is old school, one is not.

--Dave

 

[D.Cobb]

As little care as I have for sports karate type flash, I do not think one would ever be able to get rid of it in its entirety because there is a market for it. But what you can do is promote all the positive aspects of traditional Karate.

The very first thing my instructor said to me when I walked into his dojo, was "If want to learn tournament or competition karate, don't look here. I don't teach that, I only teach what my teacher taught me. I teach real karate."

Sport karate is for the guys with the competetive mindset, that just don't fit with team sports, but need to compete against others.

Old school, is for the guys or girls that feel the need to compete against themselves.

--Dave

 

[D.Cobb]

It starts with 1 person If you have studied long enough to have good knowledge of your given art You can drop the modern Kata call it what it was called prior to the modern name. And start it out fresh. Yes less people at first catch on. But is it about the money the peopl NO its about you and others that want to train it more like it was done in the past befor it sold out to modern levels that only help keep it around but do not really give it back to what it had. Hard work hard training and more about the unarmed fighter and person.

Quite right. The biggest problem facing themodern martial artist that wants to get back to the old stuff is the katas. You have to get back to what they were before the changes.

Unfortunately kata gets learned a little and taught a lot, instead of the other way round.

You know how it goes, Joe Blow signs on at his local dojo. He learns his katas all the way up to black belt and then decides to break out on his own. He teaches what he knows, but only truely has the understanding of what he does, up to brown belt.

He teaches his students and they become black belts in his style, which means they are really brown belts anywhere else, and they only really understand what they know up to their version of brown belt.

They get their own students, and they learn to black belt but they really only are as good as the local purple belts and so it goes.

In the end we have all these katas that carry the same names but look nothing alike. If we don't find the real katas now, they may be lost to us before much longer. That's the thing that scares me.

--Dave

 

[D.Cobb]

The do-gi, Kano's creation, was not.

It was designed specifically for training as I understand it, created white because dye's where expensive. Everyone wearing the same gi was a way to remove "class" from training, no fancy clothes vs peasant clothes.

Now it may resemble clothes worn at the time, which makes sense. But, the do-gi was created specifically for Judo, then adapted to karate.

Kano eventually started having his yudansha where black belts to distinguish them, not because there belts got dirty.

From the books I've read and the photos I've seen, in Okinawa the humidity is extremely high. The students are all training in their version of underpants. They look like the things the sumos wear.

I guess that's why there is soooo little grappling in Okinawan Karate.

--Dave

 

[D.Cobb]

Ok here is what I got for old school Karate frame work...

No Belt system...
No excessive kata, about 6 core kata...
Heavy Focus on Fighting, not sport or kata...
Heavier focus on personal responsibility...
Focus on training the basics...

What else we need..?

I have to disagree on one point. The focus was on kata, not fighting. For the students at any rate. If you didn't learn your katas, you weren't allowed kumite. Kumite comes from kata. That's why you have the jiyo kumite, and ippon kumite, with the prearranged moves. The new student gets to understand what the kata is teaching him, then as he progresses, the kata becomes more alive to him.

--Dave

 

[Andrew Green]

From the books I've read and the photos I've seen, in Okinawa the humidity is extremely high. The students are all training in their version of underpants. They look like the things the sumos wear.

I guess that's why there is soooo little grappling in Okinawan Karate.

--Dave

sure there was, tons of it

Called "tegumi" off the top of my head I remember Funakoshi's "Karate-Do: My way of Life" claiming it as a huge part of the culture in his childhood. Lot's of other references too it in the older guys writtings too. Sounds like a variation of Sumo.

 

[Andrew Green]

Ok here is what I got for old school Karate frame work...

No Belt system...
No excessive kata, about 6 core kata...
Heavy Focus on Fighting, not sport or kata...
Heavier focus on personal responsibility...
Focus on training the basics...

What else we need..?

Sounds a little like Motobu's method, but with mroe kata. Of course his karate was regarded as "street-fighting" and not "real" karate by some big names if memory serves

 

[Dark]

Sounds a little like Motobu's method, but with mroe kata. Of course his karate was regarded as "street-fighting" and not "real" karate by some big names if memory serves

I like street-finghting there is a kind of purity to it, you don't find anywhere else...

 

[Dark]

I have to disagree on one point. The focus was on kata, not fighting. For the students at any rate. If you didn't learn your katas, you weren't allowed kumite. Kumite comes from kata. That's why you have the jiyo kumite, and ippon kumite, with the prearranged moves. The new student gets to understand what the kata is teaching him, then as he progresses, the kata becomes more alive to him.

--Dave

What about Te before the chinese influence? Forms didn't exist until the Chinese came and kung-fu influenced Okinawan martial arts, before that it was like kick boxing, boxing and muay thai in many reguards.

 

[Robert Lee]

Quite right. The biggest problem facing themodern martial artist that wants to get back to the old stuff is the katas. You have to get back to what they were before the changes.

Unfortunately kata gets learned a little and taught a lot, instead of the other way round.

You know how it goes, Joe Blow signs on at his local dojo. He learns his katas all the way up to black belt and then decides to break out on his own. He teaches what he knows, but only truely has the understanding of what he does, up to brown belt.

He teaches his students and they become black belts in his style, which means they are really brown belts anywhere else, and they only really understand what they know up to their version of brown belt.

They get their own students, and they learn to black belt but they really only are as good as the local purple belts and so it goes.

In the end we have all these katas that carry the same names but look nothing alike. If we don't find the real katas now, they may be lost to us before much longer. That's the thing that scares me.

--Dave

What is sad its already getting to late. In some of the old Koryu kata so,me of the locks and such has been lost. Due to translation for one and holding back on teaching for another. And yes in away first Karate rots are the old kata. But as Toguchi said you will never find your Karate in the Kata. To me it says you have to look past Kata and fight it in your self. Understanding Kata is like a book it holds the information you need But if you do not see it as a place to extract the knowledge you just see some movemnets put together. And sadly I have seen this in many schools Kata as a required level for a belt. But when application comes into play. Noe of that training is ever really usedjust asmall bit. I did leave traditional M/A years ago. at first it was hard breaking away But it opened doors for me But remember most the Kata and every so often will go through one now and agin. I did take the time To earn a higher level of black belt But do not use the belt system in What I do now. Nor do I teach Traditional Karate any more. Do I respect it yes When it is not taught for point tournament Or the do this and that it will work. If its trained without the boosting of money Just enough to pay the rent basicly You get better instruction because the classes are smaller because it is taught harder and more in line to The Karate way rther then the sport For money

 

[D.Cobb]

If you teach Karate for sport or tournaments, it loses what is real. Once you start point sparring, the principles on which the katas are based are lost.
The katas are the encyclopedia of our styles. You will find a system based upon a kata or two, and even if the school has 15 kata, only one or two are the basis for the style, the rest of the katas are like the little addenda at the back of some encyclopedia. A little bit of extra information, but not enough to change the heart of what you already know.

As to teaching for money, I have seen what the chase for the almighty dollar can do to the students who trust their money hungry senseii. Friends of mine have even stopped training because of the things they went through while their/ our senseii tried to get all their money. He evn tried to convince some students, if they stayed, he would teach them immortality.

--Dave

 

[eyebeams]

Ok here is what I got for old school Karate frame work...

No Belt system...
No excessive kata, about 6 core kata...
Heavy Focus on Fighting, not sport or kata...
Heavier focus on personal responsibility...
Focus on training the basics...

What else we need..?

Energy drills. Uechi-ryu has the most recent connection to Fujian martial arts and has kept many of these intact. Goju uses them as well.

Westling. Karateka were often amatuer wrestlers under a rules set (tegumi -- now called "okinawan sumo") that included the following, IIRC:
* Jackets and belts much of the time.
* Victory if any part of the opponent at the knee or above makes supporting ("posting") contact with the ground.

For a combined full contact karate sparring protocol I would recommend a mixture of kyokushinkaikan and sanshou rules. This allows safe bareknuckle contact as well as grappling and throwing within the traditional focus of karate.

The kata should undergo some reformation to follow the principles laid out in karate's forebears: native te martial arts and Southern Chinese martial arts. This means dropping rigid upright torso placement in favour of rounded shoulders. This is applied to the basic te structure, which probably resembled archaic muay thai and FMA more than the current formal structure. Secondary influence should come from the Jigen-ryu bugei, which were extremely influential in the Ryukyus (Matsumura practiced Jigen-ryu kenjutsu and Okinawa has some surviving jo techniques).

 

[Dark]

I like allot of those ideas...
Thanks you eyebeams and well everyone for your input...

 

[eyebeams]

Correction: I confused tegumi with something else. Victory is by getting the opponent's back to touch the ground. See article at:

http://karatejutsu.blogspot.com/2006/02/okinawan-sumo.html

 

[hongkongfooey]

I don't believe that you could bring back old school Karate, today.

People are too happy to bring a lawsuit against someone today for a minor boo boo, that they received in Karate class. I can hear them now. "Your Honor, I had no clue that I was going to get beat up learning a Martial Art".

 

[D.Cobb]

I don't believe that you could bring back old school Karate, today.

People are too happy to bring a lawsuit against someone today for a minor boo boo, that they received in Karate class. I can hear them now. "Your Honor, I had no clue that I was going to get beat up learning a Martial Art".

Yeah, that's why you get to sign a disclaimer that is written in plain speak. I had this discussion with Marc Denny of the Dog Brothers fame, and asked him how they didn't get sued.

I can't find the email he sent me but the disclaimer was somewhere along the lines of Martial arts traing involves contact at high levels. By signing this you will acknowledge that what you are about to undrtake is dangerous and the risk of injury is extremely high. And then something about not suing noone no how for nothing.

One of the Denny bros. is a lawyer I believe, so he knew what to write and how to word it. Apparently it stands up to the scrutiny of the California legal system.

--Dave