Bringing back old school karate

[Martial Tucker]

Well, the number of kata has become more than most martial artists today will be even remotely proficient at. The "old school" martial artists had a few and they worked them intensely... today, we work many kata without becoming proficient in any of them.

I think this is symptomatic of the biggest problem in bringing back "old school"
karate: finding enough "old school"-minded students to make it worth the teacher's time and expense.

To me, old school karate means a LOT of hard work, sweat, and blood, and
a mindset of total dedication to learning the BASIC skills completely and diligently practicing them daily. Forever. It's the realization that you DON'T
have to be presented with new material each class, and that there is ALWAYS more to learn within the material that you have already seen.
You just have to be dedicated to your art enough to be willing to practice the same stuff over and over, and look within.

As for the kata, I totally agree. You don't need a dozen belts between white to black, with one or two new kata/forms per belt. Learn a handful of them, and practice them daily. Always look within them for a deeper meaning.

Summarizing, I think in today's "instant gratification", minimal attention-span
society, it's hard enough finding a decent sized group of people willing to put down the TV remote for awhile and break a sweat. Amongst those,
to find a select few willing to bleed a bit and actually practice the same techniques/skills more than a few times before assuming they've "mastered it"

 

[Robert Lee]

You need to rember the old Gi of long ago was also the clothes you wore And the belt used to be tied on the side not the front. It helped hold the gi closed. Then that type of clothing also became traditional to Karate. The idea of the belt color was you started out white belt And as time went on the color changed from the white to green to brown then black because of the sweat and dirt that colored the belt. So in a way the concept was the color grade. A step program. Befor you trained for years when the instructor chose he gave you a black belt to show that now you did understand your Karate. But remember often a student would stay with a instructor much of there lifetime training in that Ryu. And in that time there was just a few instructors That were held in a higher level as true Men of Karate knowledge. And even challenge matches would come from time to time So others could hope to defeat a given instructor To show there Karate was now better .Perhaps so others would follow there instruction. Or show they had evolved. Karate was not a large bunch on chain schools or such small groups would form and be given instruction. But times hanged those that wanted Karate to threive changed the training added Kata and taught youth at public schools and such So the days of Karate would not basicly die off. This proves that modern methods The gun for one removed the days of the hard training. But yes to go back remove the modern Kata Give root back to the old training. It would not be so hard. To research your given Ryu of Karate. Find the Kata that was taught In and about befor the 1900 time Or up to about 1920 Then go to that way of instruction. Also add the condition training. This would leave the room for the more open training of different tools That were later put into the Newer kata form rather then being trained seperate. THEN you find to less people are willing to train this way. Your class size will be smaller. But if youare not after money you will not mind. Small classes hard training gives results. Basicly Just training much harder improves you

 

[marlon]

You said:

I think this is symptomatic of the biggest problem in bringing back "old school"
karate: finding enough "old school"-minded students to make it worth the teacher's time and expense.

To me, old school karate means a LOT of hard work, sweat, and blood, and
a mindset of total dedication to learning the BASIC skills completely and diligently practicing them daily. Forever. It's the realization that you DON'T
have to be presented with new material each class, and that there is ALWAYS more to learn within the material that you have already seen.
You just have to be dedicated to your art enough to be willing to practice the same stuff over and over, and look within.


Imho old school karate was not looking for a gross number of students. a few will do

Respectfully,
Marlon

As for the kata, I totally agree. You don't need a dozen belts between white to black, with one or two new kata/forms per belt. Learn a handful of them, and practice them daily. Always look within them for a deeper meaning.

Summarizing, I think in today's "instant gratification", minimal attention-span
society, it's hard enough finding a decent sized group of people willing to put down the TV remote for awhile and break a sweat. Amongst those,
to find a select few willing to bleed a bit and actually practice the same techniques/skills more than a few times before assuming they've "mastered it"

 

[Dark]

THEN you find to less people are willing to train this way. Your class size will be smaller. But if youare not after money you will not mind. Small classes hard training gives results. Basicly Just training much harder improves you

Thats exactly what we need, there are plenty of people who have a taste for hard work and sacrofice. It's just there are too many "weak minded" martial artist and they have chased all the desirable people to the world of MMA and contact fighting.

Karate needs to get some of those people back or it is already dead...

 

[Martial Tucker]

Thats exactly what we need, there are plenty of people who have a taste for hard work and sacrofice. It's just there are too many "weak minded" martial artist and they have chased all the desirable people to the world of MMA and contact fighting.

Karate needs to get some of those people back or it is already dead...

Dark,

I've agreed completely with virtually every post you've made on this thread.

Until now.

IMO, the people that have gravitated to the MMA area are not to be assumed to be ideal candidates for traditional karate training just because of their work ethic or toughness. From what I've seen, and part of this may be blamed on the marketing strategy for the MMA genre, people who lean in that direction seem to be more fixated on "who's the baddest bad-***", which IMO, is a far cry from the goals of traditional karate training, which I've always interpreted to be more about self-improvement, ego containment, and respect for each other and tradition.

You may have noticed I'm a Korean stylist posting in a karate thread.
If anything, TKD has deteriorated in many cases to "ground zero" for
bad martial arts training, so as a sweating, blood-shedding traditionalist at heart, I felt like I had something to contribute to this thread.
I continue to be amazed at the proliferation of people with checkbooks bigger than their hearts, willing to write checks and receive belts as quickly and easily as possible in happy ignorance/denial in order to appease their fragile ego's.

 

[tshadowchaser]

I think this is symptomatic of the biggest problem in bringing back "old school"
karate: finding enough "old school"-minded students to make it worth the teacher's time and expense.

These people are far and few between but once in a while one comes along. As was said above it can be costly trying to keep a school open while looking for that type of student. Howeve once one walks in and stays awhile for some strange reason others show up, not in groups but one at a time and slowly the core of old style students builds. Trouble is it takes forver to get a decent size class, and you lose all the mordern students and the goes your income to keep the school open

Even I am old enough to remember the days when one group would visit a different school week after week to try their stuff. Both groups would then pactice like mad trying to think of ways to win the next week ( wining usualy ment you did not get knocked out). I also remember students who would travel from school to school to close down those who where not ligit or who could not defend their own school

 

[Dark]

IMO, the people that have gravitated to the MMA area are not to be assumed to be ideal candidates for traditional karate training just because of their work ethic or toughness.

You misunderstand me, alittle, there are allot of people who drive to work hard, but there are too few in karate today. It's not their work ethic or toughness I'd like to see return to karate, it's their heart. There are all of "yelping-muts" in MMA, but there where allot of them in karate to especially during the 60s and 70s.

What sperates the sport fighters from the old masters is the same thing that seperates a paintball-soldier from grunt in Iraq, the real world. A paint baller can know all the same stuff as the grunt, but the reality for the grunt has a deeper and less egotistic purpose... See what I mean? And thats not something limited by style, art, MMA or TMA but the individuals own heart and mind.

 

[D.Cobb]

You need to rember the old Gi of long ago was also the clothes you wore And the belt used to be tied on the side not the front. It helped hold the gi closed. Then that type of clothing also became traditional to Karate. The idea of the belt color was you started out white belt And as time went on the color changed from the white to green to brown then black because of the sweat and dirt that colored the belt. So in a way the concept was the color grade. A step program. Befor you trained for years when the instructor chose he gave you a black belt to show that now you did understand your Karate. But remember often a student would stay with a instructor much of there lifetime training in that Ryu. And in that time there was just a few instructors That were held in a higher level as true Men of Karate knowledge. And even challenge matches would come from time to time So others could hope to defeat a given instructor To show there Karate was now better .Perhaps so others would follow there instruction. Or show they had evolved. Karate was not a large bunch on chain schools or such small groups would form and be given instruction. But times hanged those that wanted Karate to threive changed the training added Kata and taught youth at public schools and such So the days of Karate would not basicly die off. This proves that modern methods The gun for one removed the days of the hard training. But yes to go back remove the modern Kata Give root back to the old training. It would not be so hard. To research your given Ryu of Karate. Find the Kata that was taught In and about befor the 1900 time Or up to about 1920 Then go to that way of instruction. Also add the condition training. This would leave the room for the more open training of different tools That were later put into the Newer kata form rather then being trained seperate. THEN you find to less people are willing to train this way. Your class size will be smaller. But if youare not after money you will not mind. Small classes hard training gives results. Basicly Just training much harder improves you

You nailed the problem at the end there. These days it's all about the money. And the people who scream the loudest that it isn't are the ones who charge the most. There is a Chinese saying, which I don't remember word for word, but basically it says, "Don't make your hobby your rice bowl"
Unfortunately it happens all too often, that the martial artist gives in to the business man. You can see it with these so called masters that are popping up on every street corner and under every rock, that charge hundreds of dollars for seminars and then justify the cost with lines like, "you don't object to paying $50 to see a doctor, and I've spent as long or longer training than what a doctor does..."
My reply is yes, but a doctor set out to create a medical business. From the day he started his training, he knew he would get paid for whatever expertise he picked up along the way. If you started learning martial arts with just the dollar signs to focus on, then you were wrong from day one.
What about the guys who say, "you have to tone down your training in an effort not to lose students"?
I believe that, the minute you change anything about the way you trained, just to keep a student happy, then you no longer have the right to represent what you teach as what you are ranked in. In fact, if your style loses it's intrinsic intensity, then you really only qualify to hang a tae-bo sign over your door.

--Dave

 

[D.Cobb]

Thats exactly what we need, there are plenty of people who have a taste for hard work and sacrofice. It's just there are too many "weak minded" martial artist and they have chased all the desirable people to the world of MMA and contact fighting.

Karate needs to get some of those people back or it is already dead...

The guys that go looking to the MMA and full contact fighting in general are those that want to learn how to fight. It's all about ego. It's not about ART.

--Dave

 

[D.Cobb]

I truly can't see that, compare the origional training methods of shotokan to the present USKA or JKA standards. O'Sensei Funakoshi said "Fifteen kata is enough exercise for a life time." And that was after several years and near the completion of his vision. The present 30+ kata between 3 organzations of Shotokan is inane and desturbing, so is the loss of a great many other aspects like grappling, trapping and such from the system.

Funakoshi even used a form of wieght lifting, but you don't see many Shotokan practicers who will pick up a set of dumbbells because it's not traditional.

Everybody raves about Funakoshi, but, from available accounts, the Okinawan masters weren't too fond of him. Itosu refered to him as "that little janitor".
The amount of true Martial technique that seems to be missing from Shotokan, inspite of the number of katas, is quite disturbing.

--Dave

 

[Martial Tucker]

The guys that go looking to the MMA and full contact fighting in general are those that want to learn how to fight. It's all about ego. It's not about ART.

--Dave

BINGO!!! You made my point more effectively, and in fewer words.

 

[D.Cobb]

The best I can come up with is strip karate down to the core aspects, incorperate a few forgotten concepts and bunkai and start teaching. One of the first two to go has to be (a) the belt system, go back to the old here is a white belt don't wash it and when it becomes black your expert when it becomes white again your a master stuff and (b) no large governing bodies, no new organizations. Lets just be a bunch of martial artist who train hard and compare knowledge in the spirit of fellowship and growth. Sound good?

Sounds great!
But, here's another idea.....
What about, making the student responsible for his/her own advancement?
I guess I'd better clarify that before I start a flame war

My instructor, Chris, trained in Okinawa under a man called Yagi. Every day Chris would go to the dojo and let himself in and begin to train. If he decided to go a little easy, because he was there on his own, Master Yagi would not show.
Master Yagi would stand under the window, downstairs in the street and listen. If he didn't hear feet stomping and breathing sounds that Goju people do, he would just go home.
If the sounds of effort were right, then he'd come on up. By this time, Chris would be dripping in sweat, and they would do kata. Inch perfect kata.
From then on Chris would have to train what he'd been taught in that class. If Master Yagi turned up and couldn't hear what he wanted to hear, he would just go home.

I have on occassion called Chris, Master. He got embarassed and told me that his teacher, Master Yagi was the master. If I must give him a title, then Senseii would do.... but he'd rather just be Chris.
I have met a lot of great martial artists over the years, but never one that is so in control of how his body moves as Chris. Mastery shows through in movement. Chris is a master!! It is the training that got him there. He does the same with us now.....

 

[D.Cobb]

I think this is symptomatic of the biggest problem in bringing back "old school"
karate: finding enough "old school"-minded students to make it worth the teacher's time and expense.

To me, old school karate means a LOT of hard work, sweat, and blood, and a mindset of total dedication to learning the BASIC skills completely and diligently practicing them daily. Forever. It's the realization that you DON'T have to be presented with new material each class, and that there is ALWAYS more to learn within the material that you have already seen.
You just have to be dedicated to your art enough to be willing to practice the same stuff over and over, and look within.

As for the kata, I totally agree. You don't need a dozen belts between white to black, with one or two new kata/forms per belt. Learn a handful of them, and practice them daily. Always look within them for a deeper meaning.

Summarizing, I think in today's "instant gratification", minimal attention-span society, it's hard enough finding a decent sized group of people willing to put down the TV remote for awhile and break a sweat. Amongst those, to find a select few willing to bleed a bit and actually practice the same techniques/skills more than a few times before assuming they've "mastered it"

It is just too damned easy these days to get a black belt!! There are schools all over the place that have these drive thru windows where you can order fries with that belt.

I have just recently started training again after a mourning period of about a year and a half. Just before our loss, I had left the school where I had earned my 2nd Dan, due to the loss of intensity in the school.
My new senseii asked me about my history, as he could tell I had done something else before. When I told him of my previous rank, he asked me if I understood that I would have to go through the same ranking system as everyone else. I answered that that was fine, I didn't want what I hadn't earned. If I wanted the black belt that bad I could just go back to where I'd been, but then I'd have to accept the crap that I'd left behind as well. I don't want that belt that bad.

--Dave

 

[D.Cobb]

These people are far and few between but once in a while one comes along. As was said above it can be costly trying to keep a school open while looking for that type of student. Howeve once one walks in and stays awhile for some strange reason others show up, not in groups but one at a time and slowly the core of old style students builds. Trouble is it takes forver to get a decent size class, and you lose all the mordern students and the goes your income to keep the school open

Even I am old enough to remember the days when one group would visit a different school week after week to try their stuff. Both groups would then pactice like mad trying to think of ways to win the next week ( wining usualy ment you did not get knocked out). I also remember students who would travel from school to school to close down those who where not ligit or who could not defend their own school

It doesn't have to be costly. Open it in your garage.... Get 5 - 10 regular students then hire a hall once a week. get 10 - 15 regular students and hire the hall twice a week. Don't expect to go full time at it... If you are good at it and there is a need for what you teach then the students will come. It's ok to advertise on the cheap too. Word of mouth and community notice boards are great, and free.

Unfortunately these days the school challenges are few and far between. The ego of the self inflated instructor must be stroked gently, and for his school to lose to another is just unacceptable. They were good fun for the students, and our instructors usually fought each other at the end of the night. So long as egos didn't get in the way, they were a fantastic learning experience.

--Dave

 

[Dark]

The guys that go looking to the MMA and full contact fighting in general are those that want to learn how to fight. It's all about ego. It's not about ART.

--Dave

But the art is fighting, and you are your own worst enemy. Allot of MMA guys don't want to go around bullying people, they want to test there metal, so to speak. I grow up with the challenge match attitude, and I have no problem with being challenged. So I understand that mentality, but there are some who want to mis-use that knowledge in any martial art. I just don't plan to judge the few louder children as the guys who just wonna shut and train in something they know will work.

 

[evenflow1121]

As little care as I have for sports karate type flash, I do not think one would ever be able to get rid of it in its entirety because there is a market for it. But what you can do is promote all the positive aspects of traditional Karate.

 

[Dark]

As little care as I have for sports karate type flash, I do not think one would ever be able to get rid of it in its entirety because there is a market for it. But what you can do is promote all the positive aspects of traditional Karate.

Which version of traditional? We all see tradition in different ways, for me tradition is doing what my "fore-barers" did but maintaining the spirt of their actions. For others it is sticking to a strick format based on those who came before, but most choose to focus on only one aspect of tradition and not the whole.

 

[Dark]

Everybody raves about Funakoshi, but, from available accounts, the Okinawan masters weren't too fond of him. Itosu refered to him as "that little janitor".
The amount of true Martial technique that seems to be missing from Shotokan, inspite of the number of katas, is quite disturbing.

--Dave

I use Funakoshi as an example, because he is the most well known. There are several other situations where a great many of other martial arts, not just karate, have lost the martial (war) aspect or the art. But you are right, he was not well liked by the Okinawan masters. Mainly for his taking Karate to Japan...

 

[Robert Lee]

It starts with 1 person If you have studied long enough to have good knowledge of your given art You can drop the modern Kata call it what it was called prior to the modern name. And start it out fresh. Yes less people at first catch on. But is it about the money the peopl NO its about you and others that want to train it more like it was done in the past befor it sold out to modern levels that only help keep it around but do not really give it back to what it had. Hard work hard training and more about the unarmed fighter and person.

 

[Andrew Green]

You need to rember the old Gi of long ago was also the clothes you wore And the belt used to be tied on the side not the front.

The do-gi, Kano's creation, was not.

It was designed specifically for training as I understand it, created white because dye's where expensive. Everyone wearing the same gi was a way to remove "class" from training, no fancy clothes vs peasant clothes.

Now it may resemble clothes worn at the time, which makes sense. But, the do-gi was created specifically for Judo, then adapted to karate.

Kano eventually started having his yudansha where black belts to distinguish them, not because there belts got dirty.