Brazilian Jiujitsu and Normal Juijitsu.....what are the differences.

[Danjo]

No. He even states in his own bio that he put a spin on some of the techs because he was not as large or athletic as his brothers (i.e., Carlos, Oslo). Carlos had the school; Helio, weak and small, would sit and watch the classes each night. One night, Carlos doesn't show, so Helio steps in and starts teaching classes...never having trained in one.

Time goes by, Helio gets good, and the 1st generation of Gracie Bros. start issuing challenge matches throughout Brazil. Carlos & Helio, working together. Even the "feuding" cousins trained under each others dads/uncles. Some of Helio's boys would go roll with Carlos, and Carlos' kids would go roll with Helio. Helio got a brief upper hand in the PR dept. by "siring" 2 of the national hero-level GJJ greats; Rolls & Rickson...both of whom trained with a couple of the oldsters, as well as with their cousins and friends of the family who were betters and equals.

Torrance propaganda is geared to make money for Rorian. In the process, he has alienated some (truly), and just made business enemies with others...by and large, though, they still greet with hugs and shoot the shyte in Portugese.

It seems, however, that when Helio's group give their version that they say that Carlos was the first to learn JJ, but that he did nothing to modify it, and that Helio was the true modifier and thus creator of BJJ. However, when you read interviews with Carley Gracie (who claims that he was never defeated even inside the Gracie family) he says that he learned everything from his father Carlos, and it was in fact Carlos that did the majority of modifications and was the first one to start the Gracie challenge and win the challenge matches in Brazil. Oslo also fought challenge matches before Helio. This is more than a slight difference of opinion. It is an attempt to rewrite history rather completely. In The Gracie Way, they make Carlos out to have been a nice, sage, moderately skilled martial artist, who knew a great deal about herbs and diet. But Helio, however, was supposedly the great inovator etc. Now, one other point: in every picture I have seen, Carlos is smaller than Helio both in terms of height and build. How is it that it would be Helio that would need to develop the techniques to take advantage of his smaller size?

 

[gusano]

The "BJJ" or Gracie jiu-jitsu that you see today is a result of the collective training and innovation of Carlos Sr. as well as all of his brothers and children and nephews, etc. Gracie Jiu-Jitsu is still eveolving and changing for the better to this day. To say that Carlos Sr. took an art and refined it and THEN taught it to his brothers etc. is not accurate in my opinion. Carlos was originally taught "jiu-jitsu" by Maeda, but the Gracie family has it's own distinct version of it as they have practiced it over the years in Brasil isolated from Japan. I am sure that Helio contributed to it as well because they were all training together.

 

[Danjo]

I would say that that is probably correct. I'm sure that they have all had a hand in it. It is just as unlikey, to me, to think that Helio alone created Gracie JJ.

 

[Littledragon]

I would say that that is probably correct. I'm sure that they have all had a hand in it. It is just as unlikey, to me, to think that Helio alone created Gracie JJ.

Helio ALONE did not create Gracie Jiu-Jitsu but he was the one who modified Jiu-Jitsu of that what Carlos Gracie taught him, he was the one who sucked out some of that traditionalism in the original Japanese art and modernized it with the help of his fellow family members.

 

[Gaston]

Good post, there are however a few areas I have different views on. Therefore this quote has been modified and I have added my views in blue so there is no confusion.

Jiu-Jitsu was the martial art of

Japan and consisted of every "school". Some schools focused on striking more and others more on ground grappling. Jiu-Jitsu included everything from eye-gouging to kicking. These practitioners developed katas as a means of practicing the lethal forms of martial arts techniques without hurting their training partners.



Jigoro Kano (1860-1938) was an accomplished jiu-jitsu player in several classical styles, especially Kito ryu and Tenjin Shin'yo ryu, who decided that he wanted to practice more realistically (as far as maximum effort and speed) and so he eliminated many of the "lethal" techniques (Like chokes and strangles??) from training (During randori and shiai practice). He limited his techniques to chokes and arm locks and his students trained with full power using their "non-lethal"?? techniques on fully resisting opponents. This is the birth of Judo and Kano opens his own school, the Kodokan in the early 1880's.



Around 1886 the Tokyo Police were looking for an effective martial art to train their members in. An open martial arts tournament was held and various schools of classical jiu-jitsu vied for the honor of training the police force. The Kodokan students won nearly every match and Judo became the prominent fighting form in Japan. Kanos training methods had been vindicated.



One of Kanos best students was Mitsuyo Maeda (1878-1941). He had originally trained in classical jiu-jitsu and switched to the Kodokan and became well known for his skill. Maeda was a world traveler and fought in many challenge matches where he used jiu-jitsu techniques not allowed in Judo (During randori and shiai practice) training. He insisted on calling his fighting style jiu-jitsu and not Judo. More than likely in respect to Jigoro Kanos' wishes not to display Judo in challenge matches.

Maeda's fighting record made him a legend in Central and South America. He also fought in England, The United States, and Spain where he took on the name Count Koma.



Maeda returned to Brazil in early 1920's when Japan was attempting a colonization project. He befriended local politician Gastao Gracie, and later taught Gastao's son Carlos jiu-jitsu. Carlos taught his brothers and his children and the brothers taught their children and so on. The family had many members to train with and develop and refine their version of what today is called Gracie or Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu. The Gracies added many techniques (Some of which can be seen in old Judo books) to their training that are illegal in (randori and shiai practice) Judo. The result is a highly effective system for a one on one fight. None of the Gracies were big men (unlike Jigoro Kanos'??) and they (Alone??) have perfected the art of clinching, taking down, and finishing an opponent to a science.



Kano, Maeda, and the Gracies realized that the effectiveness of a martial art is not determined solely by it's repertoire of techniques, but also by the training method by which it is instilled into the students.



To quote Gusano with regards to the above "new" training method:



Jigoro Kano (1860-1938) was an accomplished jiu-jitsu player in several classical styles, especially Kito ryu and Tenjin Shin'yo ryu, who decided that he wanted to practice more realistically and so he eliminated many of the "lethal" techniques (Like chokes and strangles??) from training (just during randori and shiai practice). He limited his techniques to chokes and arm locks (for randori and shiai) and his students trained with full power using their "non-lethal"?? techniques on fully resisting opponents.



See 'Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, Theory and Technique'.

No offence is intended only a slightly different opinion to consider. Humans have been grappling in some form or another for ever. So regardless who came up with it first or where they learned I for one am glad they did, and more so that they passed it on to us.

Gaston

 

[gusano]

No offence is intended only a slightly different opinion to consider. Humans have been grappling in some form or another for ever. So regardless who came up with it first or where they learned I for one am glad they did, and more so that they passed it on to us.

Gaston

I agree 100% with your edited version of my original post. I was not trying to say that "they alone" perfected grappling. The post itself was about the origin and evolution of BJJ. Grappling is the oldest martial art and as such has been around much longer than BJJ!

 

[Gaston]

Thanks for keeping an open mind, its' that mental versatility that aids our grappling skills as well. Have you posted any other posts that you feel display the same creativity? I am always curious about other grappler’s views.



Gaston

 

[Brother John]

Thinking of it in these terms helps me keep them seperate.

"Normal" jujutsu = Japanse Jujutsu: "Oh Crap! I dropped my sword, but you still have one." This leads to a set of techniques that focus on bypassing the brunt of an attack (sowrd strike), then seizing and controlling the guy who still has a sword by entangling the joints of his body (usually wrists, elbows, shoulders, & neck) and bending them in un-natural directions. In time, the sword has been replaced by the right cross or beer bottle.

Brazilian Jiu Jutsu: "I know something you don't know". Martial arts took stand-up fighting to an Nth degree of sophistication. The Gracies come along with Old Judo, blended with positional transitions from wrestling, and pull the poor karate guys to the floor where they can't use their really cool moves, then choke them till they turn funny colors. An analogy I loved from the early days of BJJ, used by guys who switched in from other martial arts, "It's like the martial arts is a three-sided fortress with the back wall missing, but nobody ever noticed it wasn't there until the Gracies slipped in from behind and stormed the castle, easily. We just simply forgot about that wall."

If you had to fight a shark, you would probably prefer to stay on land where the shark is at a strategic and mechanical disadvantage. The Brazilian JJ = shark in the water, trying to pull you into the tank to have their way with you.

Japanese JJ = somethine really useful to know. Not a lot of guys with swords out there, but tire irons and ball bats are still an option for the less-than-honorable.

Search the web and read a bunch; there's a lot of stuff out there on both.

D.

I LOVED these analogies.
Especially the "Oh Crap, I dropped my sword!" Bit.
I'd bet some thought it was a battle-cry!!!

Your Brother
John

 

[Shogun]

Originally Posted by CrushingFist
WEll I'm tall 6'2 but I ain't big in weigh, so that helps me ? or am I considered big? can a big use this art in advantage or works better for small?

Just take a look at Frank Mir. 6'3" 250 lbs. He is a big guy and he does BJJ perfectly.