Boy Scouts, Politics and Religion Discussion

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boy_Scouts_of_America_membership_controversies we have:

"The Boy Scouts of America (BSA), one of the largest private youth organizations in the United States, has policies which prohibit atheists, agnostics and "open or avowed" homosexual people from membership in its Scouting program as directly violating its fundamental principles and tenets. BSA has denied or revoked membership status or leadership positions for violation of these foundational principles.


The BSA contends that these policies are essential in its mission to instill in young people the values of the Scout Oath and Law."

I don't think teaching young kids homophobia is a good thing. But it's a free country. If this is how people want to spend their time, let them.

Ok, a couple of things.
1. You're using wikipedia, which is, while often factual, even more often biased. If you can find anything in the BSA official policy, then it can be debated. Until then, there's no point in debating the official stance.
2. They don't teach kids homophobia, they are not going up to kids saying "be scared of gay people". Admittedly there are people that have probably done that, but that is both in and outside of scouting, and people spewing that has nothing to do with scouting.
3. Most troops don't even bring up the topic, and as I've already said, many troops have gay and/or non-religious members, and eagle scouts. it's more of a troop by troop thing then anything else.
4. Since you failed to answer earlier (I'm beginning to suspect you're just skipping past my posts instead of reading them :idunno: I will ask again: do you have any personal experience with the BSA? If not, get that experience, talk to an actual troops, and the scouts, and see how many of those scouts have a problem with homosexuals, then form an opinion.
5. As Tames asked, why are you so against the BSA? Because you don't agree with one policy? It's a great organization, and teaches so much, but you can't like everything about any organization. As the saying goes "He who looks for a friend without faults..."

 

[arnisador]

4. Since you failed to answer earlier (I'm beginning to suspect you're just skipping past my posts instead of reading them :idunno: I will ask again: do you have any personal experience with the BSA?

See post #13 (prior to your question in post #22). I decided against repeating it then but have come to the conclusion that it'll be necessary for me to do so: Yes, I've been involved. I enjoyed carving the racing cars with my dad. I spent a lot of time on that.

5. As Tames asked, why are you so against the BSA? Because you don't agree with one policy?

Again, I refer you to post #13, and again, it appears it'll be necessary for me to repeat myself: I can see why people stick with it for the positive aspects, but I found it regrettable that someone stated her group has had no one vocalize concerns about the discriminatory nature of the organization. Others questioned that policy--including you, despite easily available evidence that it's the organization's official policy (e.g., Wikipedia refers to the U.S. Supreme Court case Boy Scouts of America et al. v. Dale, 530 U.S. 640 (2000)). Or, another link at Wikipedia, from June of this year:
http://blog.scoutingmagazine.org/2012/06/07/boy-scouts-of-america-clarifies-its-membership-policy/

"The BSA policy is: “While the BSA does not proactively inquire about the sexual orientation of employees, volunteers, or members, we do not grant membership to individuals who are open or avowed homosexuals or who engage in behavior that would become a distraction to the mission of the BSA.”

Scouting believes same-sex attraction should be introduced and discussed outside of its program with parents, caregivers, or spiritual advisers, at the appropriate time and in the right setting. The vast majority of parents we serve value this right and do not sign their children up for Scouting for it to introduce or discuss, in any way, these topics."


It's an org. with an official policy of discrimination against homosexuals (and atheists/agnostics). If that works for you--if you either agree with it or can compromise with it--fine. My point is that it's sad that some who join such an org. apparently prefer to cover up such a fact rather than speak against it.

I don't like everything the U.S. govt. does, but I don't move to Sweden. However, I do voice my opposition to policies I find objectionable.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

See post #13 (prior to your question in post #22). I decided against repeating it then but have come to the conclusion that it'll be necessary for me to do so: Yes, I've been involved. I enjoyed carving the racing cars with my dad. I spent a lot of time on that.

This refers to the cub scouts, not the Boy Scouts, two very related, but still not the same organization. My question was more directed to if you've actually been to any Boy Scout troops and talked to them, not Cub Scout troops.

[Quote}Again, I refer you to post #13, and again, it appears it'll be necessary for me to repeat myself: I can see why people stick with it for the positive aspects, but I found it regrettable that someone stated her group has had no one vocalize concerns about the discriminatory nature of the organization.[/QUOTE]
Seeing as how I've heard many people speak up against the discriminatory nature, I can't agree with that statement, and was wondering if there was anything more that you were referring to.

Others questioned that policy--including you, despite easily available evidence that it's the organization's official policy (e.g., Wikipedia refers to the U.S. Supreme Court case Boy Scouts of America et al. v. Dale, 530 U.S. 640 (2000)). Or, another link at Wikipedia, from June of this year:
http://blog.scoutingmagazine.org/2012/06/07/boy-scouts-of-america-clarifies-its-membership-policy/

"The BSA policy is: “While the BSA does not proactively inquire about the sexual orientation of employees, volunteers, or members, we do not grant membership to individuals who are open or avowed homosexuals or who engage in behavior that would become a distraction to the mission of the BSA.Scouting believes same-sex attraction should be introduced and discussed outside of its program with parents, caregivers, or spiritual advisers, at the appropriate time and in the right setting. The vast majority of parents we serve value this right and do not sign their children up for Scouting for it to introduce or discuss, in any way, these topics.”

Also not necessarily the part I was referring to, although that was more my fault for being unclear. I meant the policy that atheists and agnostics aren't allowed to be members of Boy Scouts. That issue is addressed here http://www.bsa-discrimination.org/html/bsa-drp.html. This is open to interpretation a tiny bit, but how I (and the chaplains at the scout camp I go to) interpret this is not that you must believe in God, as much as you must respect beliefs of others. Especially with #1, belief in God could be however a scout interprets it, even if their 'god' is science, it would still work in this context. Also, in the part discussing homosexuality that you mentioned, it states that it's the parents job to discuss sexuality, they are not trying to influence the scouts with this policy, or setting up scouts to be discriminatory towards homosexuals.

I don't like everything the U.S. govt. does, but I don't move to Sweden. However, I do voice my opposition to policies I find objectionable.

Not entirely certain what your either trying to say or respond to in this, maybe I missed something someone posted?

I take it you're new here. I myself have been gone for a bit--what's the rule about "fun and positive parts" only? That's going to really hamper me in a few martial arts areas here--there are some I don't think so highly of.

For those for whom the answer to the OP's question is "No" or "Not any more", this could well be an aspect of it.

According to his profile, he's been on this site since 2001, not exactly "new", about a month longer than you. And i don't think he was commenting so much that only fun and positive stuff can be commented on martialtalk, but that political discussions should be in the study. Finally, it's not an aspect of it, because I was not asking, or implying that I wanted to know why people were not involved with scouting. Asked a question mainly towards people who were involved with scouting, and even for them, no direct question of why they are, or their opinions on scouting's official policies. As he said, arguments about that would be more appropriate in the study then in here. With that, I am going to bed because I have a fencing meet tomorrow, and don't feel like wasting more time defending the BSA on what was never supposed to be a political thread.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

See post #13 (prior to your question in post #22). I decided against repeating it then but have come to the conclusion that it'll be necessary for me to do so: Yes, I've been involved. I enjoyed carving the racing cars with my dad. I spent a lot of time on that.

This refers to the cub scouts, not the Boy Scouts, two very related, but still not the same organization. My question was more directed to if you've actually been to any Boy Scout troops and talked to them, not Cub Scout troops.

Again, I refer you to post #13, and again, it appears it'll be necessary for me to repeat myself: I can see why people stick with it for the positive aspects, but I found it regrettable that someone stated her group has had no one vocalize concerns about the discriminatory nature of the organization.

Seeing as how I've heard many people speak up against the discriminatory nature, I can't agree with that statement, and was wondering if there was anything more that you were referring to.

Others questioned that policy--including you, despite easily available evidence that it's the organization's official policy (e.g., Wikipedia refers to the U.S. Supreme Court case Boy Scouts of America et al. v. Dale, 530 U.S. 640 (2000)). Or, another link at Wikipedia, from June of this year:
http://blog.scoutingmagazine.org/2012/06/07/boy-scouts-of-america-clarifies-its-membership-policy/

"The BSA policy is: “While the BSA does not proactively inquire about the sexual orientation of employees, volunteers, or members, we do not grant membership to individuals who are open or avowed homosexuals or who engage in behavior that would become a distraction to the mission of the BSA.Scouting believes same-sex attraction should be introduced and discussed outside of its program with parents, caregivers, or spiritual advisers, at the appropriate time and in the right setting. The vast majority of parents we serve value this right and do not sign their children up for Scouting for it to introduce or discuss, in any way, these topics.”

Also not necessarily the part I was referring to, although that was more my fault for being unclear. I meant the policy that atheists and agnostics aren't allowed to be members of Boy Scouts. That issue is addressed here http://www.bsa-discrimination.org/html/bsa-drp.html. This is open to interpretation a tiny bit, but how I (and the chaplains at the scout camp I go to) interpret this is not that you must believe in God, as much as you must respect beliefs of others. Especially with #1, belief in God could be however a scout interprets it, even if their 'god' is science, it would still work in this context. Also, in the part discussing homosexuality that you mentioned, it states that it's the parents job to discuss sexuality, they are not trying to influence the scouts with this policy, or setting up scouts to be discriminatory towards homosexuals.

I don't like everything the U.S. govt. does, but I don't move to Sweden. However, I do voice my opposition to policies I find objectionable.

Not entirely certain what your either trying to say or respond to in this, maybe I missed something someone posted?

I take it you're new here. I myself have been gone for a bit--what's the rule about "fun and positive parts" only? That's going to really hamper me in a few martial arts areas here--there are some I don't think so highly of.

For those for whom the answer to the OP's question is "No" or "Not any more", this could well be an aspect of it.

According to his profile, he's been on this site since 2001, not exactly "new", about a month longer than you. And i don't think he was commenting so much that only fun and positive stuff can be commented on martialtalk, but that political discussions should be in the study. Finally, it's not an aspect of it, because I was not asking, or implying that I wanted to know why people were not involved with scouting. Asked a question mainly towards people who were involved with scouting, and even for them, no direct question of why they are, or their opinions on scouting's official policies. As he said, arguments about that would be more appropriate in the study then in here. With that, I am going to bed because I have a fencing meet tomorrow, and don't feel like wasting more time defending the BSA on what was never supposed to be a political thread.

 

[Tez3]

I'm not sure the argument is turning 'political' as such, I think people do have concerns about the road Scouting seems to be taking in your country. Here and in Europe we are very careful of youth organisations for historical reasons, ie the Hitler Youth so we like our organisations to be broad even the ones that belong to one faith only. I think some are questioning the current values of an organisation that was designed to all encompassing, and non judgemental, I find it disappointing that it seems not to be the organisation B-P had in mind and that seems to work well in other countries. I'm not sure that's political, it's more worrying.

 

[pgsmith]

Sorry, but I have to clear up a point about the BSA policies that some people find so objectionable. The policy is in place because many Scout troops are affiliated with church groups that do not condone same sex relationships. If the BSA council were to adopt a policy of non-discrimination, then I can guarantee that there would be radicals who insisted on being leaders in Troops at a number of these churches, with a threat of a law suit if they weren't allowed. This would cause the collapse of a good number of Troops and they would no longer be allowed to assist the boys, which is the main point of the entire endeavor. This way, while there is a lot of political outcry, the Troops can continue to focus on their mission, which is to help boys become men. For the vast majority of Scout Troops, the issue of same sex relationships is not something that is ever mentioned, or even considered.

 

[elder999]

Here is all that is wrong with the organization. :

A longtime Boy Scout claims he's being denied the organization's highest honor because he's gay.
Ryan Andresen, who lives near San Francisco, recently finished an extensive service project needed to earn his Eagle Scout award, but his troop leader refuses to give him the rank.
"He said he can't because Ryan said he is gay," said Karen Andresen, the scout's mother.
Ryan claims the scoutmaster knew about his sexual orientation well before he started the project and paperwork for the honor.
"He had been telling me all along that we'd get by the gay thing," Ryan told Yahoo News. "It was by far the biggest goal of my life. It's totally devastating."
The scoutmaster of Troop 212 in Moraga, Calif., did not immediately return phone and email messages seeking comment.

I was glad when my son said he wanted to quit-my dad was a scout, and a scoutmaster, and so was I, but-as I posted elsewher-it's a sad and sorry organization, that forgets their purpose: For ALL boys

 

[granfire]

Here is all that is wrong with the organization. :



I was glad when my son said he wanted to quit-my dad was a scout, and a scoutmaster, and so was I, but-as I posted elsewher-it's a sad and sorry organization, that forgets their purpose: For ALL boys

Not to mention they are violating a few of their own principles...
The Scout master should have told the kid right then that he wasn't going to sign off on it.

But I have to say, you don't need a uniform and a sash to have honor - or be an Eagle Scout for that matter.

 

[Carol]

Not to mention they are violating a few of their own principles...
The Scout master should have told the kid right then that he wasn't going to sign off on it.

But I have to say, you don't need a uniform and a sash to have honor - or be an Eagle Scout for that matter.

No, but there are many organizations that recognize the rank as a pretty big deal -- including colleges, scholarship bureaus...not to mention the accolades, such as this young man in Georgia who received letters from current and former Presidents upon earning his Eagle Scout rank:

http://www.news-daily.com/news/2012/oct/03/dear-eagle-scout/

 

[Tames D]

I'm a little confused. Why would the topic of your sexual preference come up? Especially teens. If I was working towards my Eagle, why would I mention that I'm gay, or straight? What on earth does this have anything to do with accomplishing your goals? Why not keep this private info to yourself and not invite the controversy? I don't feel the need to anounce that I'm hetrosexual to organizations that I belong to. It's a little strange.

 

[arnisador]

Why should such info. be controversial? More to the point, why should the Boy Scouts care? Your comments amount to "stay in the closet". Teens talk about sex and dating. It comes up.

 

[Tez3]

I assume your Eagle Scouts like our Queen's Scouts and Guides aren't young teens but are older more like young adults than kids so the chances of them having girlfriends and boyfriends are high. In that case it's very likely that while they may not have talked about their sexuality to Scouting authorities it's public knowledge in their communities.

 

[Makalakumu]

Here is all that is wrong with the organization. :



I was glad when my son said he wanted to quit-my dad was a scout, and a scoutmaster, and so was I, but-as I posted elsewher-it's a sad and sorry organization, that forgets their purpose: For ALL boys

My solution.

Put out a call to Eagle Scouts who would give their badge to the candidate who earned the rank. Put the ceremony on video and post it on youtube. It's viral in days.

 

[Tez3]

I've been reading up on the history of scouting in America, it seems it has a chequered past with race, unions and a lot of other stuff getting in the way. it seems a shame that the mindset of some people who seem to want to control others lives comes before the general good of youth. Oh and before anyone starts I'm criticising individuals not a country, and as Scouting was started in the UK as a uniquely British organisation that has spread throughout the world I think I can comment on it! One would expect certain countries to be restrictive in it's membership of organisations but not the USA, there I would have expected it to be even more open than here but it's not and it does puzzle me the amount of control you allow over such things. Scouting was never meant to be a 'privately' owned organisation just for an elite chosen by a few.

 

[granfire]

I've been reading up on the history of scouting in America, it seems it has a chequered past with race, unions and a lot of other stuff getting in the way. it seems a shame that the mindset of some people who seem to want to control others lives comes before the general good of youth. Oh and before anyone starts I'm criticising individuals not a country, and as Scouting was started in the UK as a uniquely British organisation that has spread throughout the world I think I can comment on it! One would expect certain countries to be restrictive in it's membership of organisations but not the USA, there I would have expected it to be even more open than here but it's not and it does puzzle me the amount of control you allow over such things. Scouting was never meant to be a 'privately' owned organisation just for an elite chosen by a few.

Yeah, the US is weird that way.
A bit of multiple personality disorder.

Strangely enough, the English roots are embraced and valued.

 

[Tames D]

Arni, Really? Stay in the closet? I can tell you that my 11 and 13 year old wouldn't know what the **** that means. And the Boy Scouts shouldn't care. Should be a non issue. I think you are thinking these kids are older...
I'm not sure where you are living, but we're just not seeing this gay and religious bashing where we are.

 

[Tez3]

Arni, Really? Stay in the closet? I can tell you that my 11 and 13 year old wouldn't know what the **** that means. And the Boy Scouts shouldn't care. Should be a non issue. I think you are thinking these kids are older...
I'm not sure where you are living, but we're just not seeing this gay and religious bashing where we are.

It shouldn't be an issue agreed but when protests turn up on my Facebook and in the UK newspapers then it means it must be quite high profile for it to be international news not just local.

 

[arnisador]

Arni, Really? Stay in the closet? I can tell you that my 11 and 13 year old wouldn't know what the **** that means. And the Boy Scouts shouldn't care. Should be a non issue. I think you are thinking these kids are older...

I think most 13 year olds these days know that some kids are gay. Kids who are gay are apt to know or suspect that about themselves by this age also. I agree that the BSA shouldn't care.

 

[elder999]

Arni, Really? Stay in the closet? I can tell you that my 11 and 13 year old wouldn't know what the **** that means. And the Boy Scouts shouldn't care. Should be a non issue. I think you are thinking these kids are older...
I'm not sure where you are living, but we're just not seeing this gay and religious bashing where we are.

I'd suggest you ask your 11 and 13 year old what it means-they might just surprise you.

My daughter knew she was a lesbian when she was 12.

And you're right, the Boy Scouts shouldn't care-unfortunately, they do, because of the will of a few old men in Texas, mostly, and some pretty selective interpretations of the Bible-the Boy Scouts, btw, have faith badges for Hindu, Buddhist, Jewish and Muslim scouts, as well as just about every denomination of Christianity.

And just because you're not seeing it, doesn't mean that it doesn't exist....

Lastly, Tames, I'd offer that you might consider-just consider-the notion that your 11 or 13 year old could approach you in the next couple of months to tell you that they're gay, and think about what parenting-and scouting-would be like from that day forward.

Again, from six years ago:

Born: 1910
Died: June 2000
Cause of death: Christian Dogma


First, some other news items:

Philadelphia, June 2003-Gregory Lattera, a Boy Scout and camp counselor for the previous seven yeas, was informed that he is banned from scouting because he admitted publicly that he is gay. Upon reading the letter, Lattera said, "It broke my heart.”

Port Orchard, Washington, June, 2002-Eagle Scout Darrell Lambert, who had provided more than 1,000 hours of community service as a Scout, was informed by the regional Boy Scouts of America executive that he had one week “to declare his belief in a supreme being” or quit the scouts.

Washington, D.C., June 2000-The U.S. Supreme court, in a 5-to-4 vote, backed the BSA’s right to exclude homosexuals. Justice William Rehnquist explained that gays violate the Scout directive to be “clean” and “morally straight.”

Dallas, Texas, January 2003- Following a raid of the local Boy Scout office by federal agents, a grand jury began investigating whether the Dallas BSA franchise fraudulently inflated its membership to boost donations from non-profits.

I’m a Scout -I’m 46, but you’re always a Scout, like you’re always “Mr. President,”though it's really "always an Eagle," something I didn't have a chance for...

Hudson Valley Council, Troop 134, Order of the Arrow, Patrol Leader, Senior Patrol Leader, camp staff member, Scoutmaster’s son, Scoutmaster, and former Cub Scout and Webelo. I had a subscription to Boys’ Life for ten years, and I still remember Morse Code. I learned how to use a compass, start a fire, wrap a tourniquet, lash a log, shoot a gun and bow and arrow, paddle a canoe, sail, pitch a tent, tie flies and swim while carrying a panicked drowning victim.

Steenking Badges? I had ‘em all: sash with 23 merit badges, Scout shirts, Scout pants, Scout socks, Scout hats, Scout neckerchiefs out the wazoo. Be prepared. A Scout is trustworthy, loyal, etcetera (I absolutely still know it by heart). Philmont. Baden Powell-words and names that only Scouting survivors would know.

When I became a Scout in Peekskill, N.Y., Nixon had just become President. I didn’t know what marijuana was, or what homosexuals were. Troop 134 was sponsored by the Knights of Columbus, just a little ways from St. Columbanus Catholic Church and School. There was an American flag on St. Columbanus’s altar, just as there was at my father’s Episcopal church. Because I went to the public school, I was one of the few Scouts who did not attend St. Columbanus, and, with the exception of my father- an Episcopal priest-the Scoutmasters were all Knights. And, with the later short exception of my brother, I was the only non-white scout-though no one ever did anything but make me feel welcome.

Although the “KC Hall” was practically on the same property as the church and the school, it had a full bar upstairs. Downstairs was where Troop 134 met every Tuesday night. The meeting always started with everyone lined up in military drill, while the scoutmasters strutted back and forth making announcements. There was one year when a young, crew-cutted National Guard member served as an assistant scoutmaster. He had the scouts marchin’, salutin’ and about-facin’ up a storm for months. He inspected the troops like a drill sergeant, busting chops for shirttails, blue jeans, and uncombed hair or missing badges. We made fun of him behind his back, until he went to Viet Nam, never to return.

Otherwise I remember Scouting was mostly all our dads’ best efforts at creating a Man Apprenticeship for their young sons. And it was a reason besides huntin’ and fishin’ for everybody to go out and play in the woods. I remember the really fun stuff like the time Michael Peck-who time would prove to be more than a little crazy- brought three bottles of gasoline to light campfires with, or the time that herpetologist Bill Haas came from Florida, with several cobras to show us! Or the time my best friend Michael Van den Berg and I were in a canoe and almost got sucked into the intake at Kensico Dam, and the time we put salt into the coffee at the KC dinner.

In fact, it was a lot like Jackass, only better.:lol:

When I went to boarding school, I had to pretty much give up scouting, and I found new diversions, but the Scout life had undeniable impact on my socialization.

So I was a little taken aback one day when my boarding school chess coach, as we drove past a Boy Scout car wash, muttered something about “brownshirts.” It’s true-a pack of Boy Scouts in uniform bears no small resemblance to the old newsreels of Hitler Youth congregations. We didn’t go around smashing windows and assaulting Jews, but I certainly knew that a major intention of Scouting had always been to promote the military virtues of loyalty, obedience, and patriotism. I realized that, to my chess coach-and German teacher, a sophisticated Kennedy Democrat and barely former leftist hippie-the BSA was part of the conservative establishment. It would have been inconceivable for a kid in the KC hall to cop to being a homosexual or an atheist, but, in 1974, American culture as a whole was over the crest of a wave of change that went from free speech and civil rights to hippies, and Watergate.

Back in Peekskill, I never thought of the Scouts as a fundamentalist Christian boys club or a junior ROTC. I expected the BSA would grow and mature with America, but it seems to be losing touch-I suspect there aren’t very many Hip Hop troops in the hood these days-though I met Scouts from what was the equivalent back then. It will be a sad day if the Scouts prove my chess coach right and become a dull, thuggish cadre of brown shirts. America in the 21st century deserves better. America deserves volunteer based youth groups that work in an atmosphere of tolerance and diversity, not a private club devoted to enforcing rigid, suburban conformity. We now live in a time where many children are neglected on a Dickensian scale: While the grownups argue over the principles of Christianity and capitalism, many kids go without food, care, tutoring, mentoring or love. I was happy to be a Scoutmaster for my son, angered and saddened by what scouting had become, and relieved when he said he was no longer interested in Scouting, and would rather just go camping and hunting with me and my friends; it was he who got me back into hunting, after I had given it up since the death of my father .

I am not alone in my outrage. A cursory search on the net reveals “Scouting for All,” an organization composed of ex-Scouts like myself and devoted to reforming the Boy Scouts. Scouting for All has an impressive website and several regional headquarters. The BSA’s funding from government and non-profit sources is now under legal attack, based upon the principles of the First amendment and nondiscrimination policies.

Ironically, Baden-Powell- a real military scout in the Boer War, founded the Scouts when he found boys were reading the military manual he had written. He thought he was creating “peace scouts.”

Meanwhile, I still have my Order of the Arrow badge, as well as a few others, and I still get flashbacks when I spot old scout uniforms in thrift stores. And I laughed my butt off when I saw that episode on South Park-a show I normally despise- about the gay Scoutmaster.

 

[arnisador]

the Boy Scouts, btw, have faith badges for Hindu, Buddhist

...and Buddhism is arguably a religion without a god, rendering "Duty to God" meaningless.

I keep hearing that what really drives the homophobia and religiosity in the BSA policy is the money that comes to them through Mormon churches, which apparently makes up a lot of their funding. It's a shame to have your policies driven by your funding to that extent.