Boy Scouts, Politics and Religion Discussion

[granfire]

I did the girl scout thing with my daughter and now my soon-to-be-14 year old son is finding himself in boy scouts. He *LOVES* the outdoorsmanship and survival tactics he is learning and developing. He *LOVES* to hike, as well and is a natural leader. His troop leaders usually include him in youth leadership groups where they usually only take 14 years & older or first class scouts when he is neither.

My husband is "involved" as an assistant scoutmaster. I may get involved as well. He is very interested in Venturing which really excites me.

We have come up against some friends who can't believe we continue in the organization with their anti-gay stance, though.

Fortunately, we have not had any leaders or parents be vocal about these types of sentiments in our pack.

Jared didn't think he would enjoy scouting but he is really finding himself and finding something that helps him self-nurture and I'm SO grateful. I'm sure he will become Eagle but even if he doesn't, I'm happy that this experience is doing so very much for him elsewise and that he's having fun and making friends.

I am not crazy about the anti gay thing either (I rather deal with openly gay men or women instead of the the closet pedos)

But the majority of the program has so much to give to the boys, especially in a time when outdoorsy skills are being lost in favor of indoor sitdown 'activities'.

I mean, a boy being able to cook a meal for himself and his friends, that's pretty good in a time when a lot of girls can't manage past takeout....

It's a guy's organization. I don't go camping or hiking with them if it can be helped (though I underwent the training in youth safety, so in theory i could) because the guys need their space were no female is frowning at them when they tell butt jokes, scratch certain places and make noises with their bodies.

 

[arnisador]

My boys have been in the Scouts for 8 years now. I have NEVER heard anything about an anti gay stance.

Try telling them that one of your boys is gay (or irreligious) and see what happens.

 

[Tames D]

Try telling them that one of your boys is gay (or irreligious) and see what happens.

An 11 year old gay? If mine was I would stand by him and tell the scouts to **** off. But knowing the group we belong to, I don't think that would be an issue. An 11 year old gay kid? Really? Am I out of touch with human sexuality?

 

[granfire]

Try telling them that one of your boys is gay (or irreligious) and see what happens.

well, religion is strongly supported.
But we don't do religion. Since it never felt right.
The kid will have to find his own way. But it has never caused a ripple.
I suppose it depends on where you are at and how the group dynamic is if somebody takes issue and carries it to the upper levels.
But from the age of 11 through 18 the sexual orientation does come into play, I am sure, at some level.
Not sure though if I like the emphasis that is put on that in the US. A person is much more than what they do in bed. It would be great if the program that is all about growth would reflect that better.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

My boys have been in the Scouts for 8 years now. I have NEVER heard anything about an anti gay stance.

This will probably be a long paragraph because this argument against scouting gets me very worked up. Look at the bottom for a too long didn't read.
It's not something people actually IN the scouts care too much about. From what I understand of it, it's that the scouts in general (although many many troops have made exceptions) don't want leaders/scouts to be gay. i say leaders and scouts, but any times where I've seen someone get kicked out, it's almost always been a leader at a camp, or a scoutmaster, or something similar. I've looked, and maybe i just looked badly but I've never seen any article talking about an actual SCOUT that was kicked out of their troop just for being gay. In fact, I've met several gay scouts through summer camp, who are openly gay and the troop just happens to 'forget' about that rule. So, it's not really a set in stone thing like most scout bashers seem to think it is. Also, it's not a rule that's there specifically for discrimination or some bigoted belief. Whether or not I agree (or any of you) agree with the reasoning behind it, there is a reason behind the rule. It's to protect the kids. There are many 11-year old's who may not completely understand certain sexual harassment ideas, so to protect them (and make parents feel comfortable) gay people aren't allowed. You have to remember that most of the time it's an overnight thing, and at summer camp at least they are showering together a lot of the time. This offers a lot of opportunities for sexual harassment take place, and, presumably, if you take away the people who would want to sexually harass them (guys who are interested in other guys sexually), the danger of it happening also decreases. it's not a perfect system, but in a large organization those are hard to come by, and you can't exactly create a rule that goes by a case-for-case basis. So instead, they have the general rule that's designed to protect everyone and ease worried parents, but isn't necessarily always enforced by troops where the issue comes up. Also, not sure where to put this, but the troops that I know that do have gay scouts mention it to the parents, and talk to both the parents and the scouts and try to put them at ease about the issue, and as long as their all at ease, let him stay in the troop. The one time where they weren't at ease, the scoutmaster helped the scout find a nearby troop who was ok with his sexual orientation. To clarify, this was NOT the scoutmaster kicking him out. If he stayed with the troop, other scouts would have left scouting completely, and he would have been bullied for his sexual orientation by the other scouts who weren't ok with it. Instead, the scoutmaster actively went out of his way to help find the boy an environment where he wouldn't haven't be persecuted over something he had no control over, and could still benefit from all that scouting has to offer.

Tl;dr the issue is a big one, but is not as black and white as most people against it tend to suggest. It mainly only affects leaders, for safety reasons, and is done more as a case-by-case basis, rather than everyone just blindly follows the rule. It's different from the army because this includes 11-year old boys who don't understand everything yet, and different from other sports because the scouts shower together, and the scouts and leaders sleep in the same area(although leaders sleep in a different tent) so it's easier to sexually harass a scout.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Try telling them that one of your boys is gay (or irreligious) and see what happens.

read above quote for gay; as for irreligious, scouts never say you have to be RELIGIOUS, they say you have to be REVERENT, there's a difference.
Definition of reverent=Feeling or showing deep and solemn respect. Definition of reverent =/= believing in a deity, or being religious.
I've heard stories of openly atheist/agnostic eagle scouts. They don't have to believe in anything in particular, they have to show respect to the religions, to nature, and to the world in general. You could be the most 'religious' person in the world, and bash other religions, and that would not be reverent. You could be the least religious person in the world, but respect religions, and that would be reverent.
P.S. All the stories I've heard of atheist Eagle scouts, most of them when pressed on the issue have said they respect nature and think it's beautiful and mystical/magical, they just won't say a specific deity created everything.
P.P.S. from your other post, it seems like you were never actually affiliated with the boy scouts. Do you have any experience with this, or are you just saying what you hear from the news, without being personally involved assuming things are a certain way, and preaching them as if they're fact?

 

[Tez3]

UK Scouting and being Gay.
http://scouts.org.uk/fellowship/html/flags.html

 

[shesulsa]

The anti-gay policy seems to be more of a political statement and official policy than anything else. I've mainly run into parents who don't support boy scouts in sales or won't have their son join because of the policy.

I definitely understand this and support their right to do this.

I believe, however, that most of today's scouts really don't care if their leaders or other boys in the troop are gay. I know my son doesn't care and with two-deep leadership it's a lot harder for troops who adhere to this policy to expose their charges to opportunities for abuse.

It would be nice if they would change this policy, though I think they would lose much funding from the LDS church.

 

[pgsmith]

Try telling them that one of your boys is gay (or irreligious) and see what happens.

That all depends upon the Troop. Troops that are sponsored by the local Baptist church are not going to react well to that information. Troops that aren't connected to a specific religious organization are going to react quite differently. I've encountered church Troops that did not follow the recommended non-denominational service edict. Our Troop tended to be one of those that was quite open. It was quite interesting to make a Sunday service that was non-denominational enough for the Buddhist kid, the two Hindu kids, and the Jewish kid, not to mention our Catholic, Baptist, and Methodist kids.
One of the things that make the Scouts such a good organization, is that the program can be tailored for each individual Troop. The Troop, as represented by the Scoutmasters and the Committee, are the ones that decide how they're going to do things.

 

[Tez3]

Sunday services? Are the Scouts in America more of a religious organisation than ours?

 

[Blindside]

Sunday services? Are the Scouts in America more of a religious organisation than ours?

That is a surprise to me as well. Admittedly I had a very secular troop, but I can't imagine us doing a Sunday service out in the field.

 

[pgsmith]

Sunday services? Are the Scouts in America more of a religious organisation than ours?

Yes, they tend to be. Our recommended program has a Troop chaplain with a boy assistant chaplain. Some Troops don't bother, other Troops are adamant about it. I always tried to get our boys to put on a Sunday service because it made them conciously think about the boys of other religions, and gave them all an opportunity to stop and think about what they were doing, and to be grateful for the good things in their life. It is my opinion that too many people today focus too much on what they don't have rather than what's good in their life, and a Sunday service was my way of trying to keep my boys from falling into that trap. Our services were, of necessity, extremely non-denominational.

 

[Tez3]

Do you have the Boys' Brigade and the Girls' Brigade? These are the Christian youth organisations here. There's also the Jewish Lad's and Girl's Brigade for (obviously) Jewish kids. I never worked out why the Christians were boys and the Jews lads though!

 

[granfire]

That is a surprise to me as well. Admittedly I had a very secular troop, but I can't imagine us doing a Sunday service out in the field.

Around here, nothing goes on Sunday (well actually, the stores are open, but EVERYBODY else is in church. Twice)

We are strangely enough pretty secular as well, though our Scout Master was pretty religious himself.
We had a short prayer at the dismissal of that one Camping trip where they found a dead guy in the river. (longer story, I don't think the boys ever saw him, but the leaders certainly had to deal with it...confused drunk guy taking a swim in an icy cold swollen creek...his body barely made it)

The Mormons seem to embrace the program more than any other group it seems, which leads to some interesting policies, I suppose.

 

[Tez3]

Around here, nothing goes on Sunday (well actually, the stores are open, but EVERYBODY else is in church. Twice)

We are strangely enough pretty secular as well, though our Scout Master was pretty religious himself.
We had a short prayer at the dismissal of that one Camping trip where they found a dead guy in the river. (longer story, I don't think the boys ever saw him, but the leaders certainly had to deal with it...confused drunk guy taking a swim in an icy cold swollen creek...his body barely made it)

The Mormons seem to embrace the program more than any other group it seems, which leads to some interesting policies, I suppose.

How do they reconcile it all to Baden-Powell's original vision and ideas for Scouting? while nominally Christian it was to be a more military type of organisation than a religious one. B-P was a free thinker and wanted his organisation to be available to all rather than just those of one sect or another.

 

[pgsmith]

How do they reconcile it all to Baden-Powell's original vision and ideas for Scouting? while nominally Christian it was to be a more military type of organisation than a religious one. B-P was a free thinker and wanted his organisation to be available to all rather than just those of one sect or another.

I agree with that totally, and so does the BSA recommended program. However, many church groups use the Boy Scouts as their organization's youth group requirement. Since it is then a church youth group, and the Troops are allowed to tailor the program to fit their needs, you end up with some pretty religious Scout Troops. I've been at more than one adult leader training where a participant refused to attend sections about other religious viewpoints and how to accomodate them.

Myself, I wish the LDS church (Mormons) would drop the Boy Scouts. The way I understand it is this ... since Scouting is the official LDS church youth activity, all boys are required to attend, and all males are required to serve a minimum stint as a leader. So, you end up with both boys and leaders that don't want to be there, those boys that could have gained a lot from the Scouting program instead learned nothing because their leaders were untrained and uncaring. My Scouts that worked as summer camp staff, including one who has been camp director at a Colorado camp for several years now, all dreaded LDS week at summer camp (they have their own week so they don't have to mix with others). They said that the Scouts were always out of control and terribly destructive, and the leaders had no interest in trying to help them.

 

[granfire]

How do they reconcile it all to Baden-Powell's original vision and ideas for Scouting? while nominally Christian it was to be a more military type of organisation than a religious one. B-P was a free thinker and wanted his organisation to be available to all rather than just those of one sect or another.

well, the people are that religious. That's what they do, that's how it shows. <shrug>
I can't complain about our troop tho. We are working a bit on the discipline side (works well when the new Scout Master and his wife are both high ranking sergeants in the Army )
The religion part has never bothered any body so far, with me probably being the black sheep in the bunch, never having my kid Christened. Poor thing will have to find his own way in the world of faith.

The program itself is laid out for everybody to gain something from it, and for everybody to learn new things if they so desire.

 

[arnisador]

From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boy_Scouts_of_America_membership_controversies we have:

"The Boy Scouts of America (BSA), one of the largest private youth organizations in the United States, has policies which prohibit atheists, agnostics and "open or avowed" homosexual people from membership in its Scouting program as directly violating its fundamental principles and tenets. BSA has denied or revoked membership status or leadership positions for violation of these foundational principles.


The BSA contends that these policies are essential in its mission to instill in young people the values of the Scout Oath and Law."

 

[Tames D]

From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boy_Scouts_of_America_membership_controversies we have:

"The Boy Scouts of America (BSA), one of the largest private youth organizations in the United States, has policies which prohibit atheists, agnostics and "open or avowed" homosexual people from membership in its Scouting program as directly violating its fundamental principles and tenets. BSA has denied or revoked membership status or leadership positions for violation of these foundational principles.

Wow. Maybe I made a big mistake putting my kids in the Scouts. I didn't realize there was so much religious and SEXUAL issues with young boys trying to do a good thing. I think I will pull them out of this right now. On second thought , NO. Arni, Why are you soooooooo against this?


The BSA contends that these policies are essential in its mission to instill in young people the values of the Scout Oath and Law."

Wow. Maybe I made a big mistake putting my kids in the Scouts. I didn't realize there was so much religious and SEXUAL issues with young boys trying to do a good thing. I think I will pull them out of this right now. On second thought , NO. Arni, Why are you soooooooo against this?

 

[arnisador]

Wow. Maybe I made a big mistake putting my kids in the Scouts. I didn't realize there was so much religious and SEXUAL issues with young boys trying to do a good thing. I think I will pull them out of this right now. On second thought , NO. Arni, Why are you soooooooo against this?

I don't think teaching young kids homophobia is a good thing. But it's a free country. If this is how people want to spend their time, let them.