Benefits of associations?

[Doc]

Originally posted by eternalwhitebelt

Wow. I never ever thought that someone was being disrespectful to me by using my first name. I thought that was what it was for. Seems like a lot of b.s. to me. Sometimes the martial arts takes itself way to seriously.

Well my comprehension challenged friend, if you re-read the post it makes no references to the martial arts, it speaks of "common courtesy and manners." I, being from the South do understand and appreciate the geographical and cultural deviation, and have no problem with it. But if someone finds usage of "common courtesy and manners" "too serious" that is there prerogative. However most of the really knowledgeable people I know in the arts subscribe to such B.S. on and off the mat. Maybe that is a reflection of the level of knowledge available. As a college student I can't think of one professor I called by his/her first name. Oh that's right, we're talking about just "karate." Sorry,

 

[eternalwhitebelt]

Wow, now I am comprehension challenged because I disagree with you. Okay what ever master, I mean Doctor. Exactly what do I call you? Speaking of college, where exactly did you get your Post Doctorate? You should just tell people you have a B.S. it would be more appropriate. Well, reread your post, you were refering to Ed Parker and how he allowed certain people to call him Ed. I do believe that is a reference to the martial arts. Last time I checked we are on a forum called Martial Talk. So sorry if I read between the lines. I assumed since you had a Post Doctorate you would have the ability to read between the lines. Sorry my mistake. I will keep everything literal next time so you can keep up and you will not get offended. If you care to continue with the negative posts please do I have enough ammo on you to go all year.

 

[ProfessorKenpo]

Originally posted by Doc



Well my comprehension challenged friend, if you re-read the post it makes no references to the martial arts, it speaks of "common courtesy and manners." I, being from the South do understand and appreciate the geographical and cultural deviation, and have no problem with it. But if someone finds usage of "common courtesy and manners" "too serious" that is there prerogative. However most of the really knowledgeable people I know in the arts subscribe to such B.S. on and off the mat. Maybe that is a reflection of the level of knowledge available. As a college student I can't think of one professor I called by his/her first name. Oh that's right, we're talking about just "karate." Sorry,

Hope this one goes in the way I want it to.

I had of enough of the demanded sirs and ma'am to last a lifetime from 11 years in the USAF and I respected very few people that I called sir/ma'am. Most of the time I referred to them by their rank, which kept things on an even keel with me. If someone DEMANDS that kind of respect from me, they can kiss my ***, I'll turn around and leave with an explanation of my sudden departure. People are given names for a reason, to identify them as an individual, and not part of the huge mass. I have a pretty unique name and I don't think anyone gets me confused with all the others out there with similar names either. By growing up in Mid-Texas during the 60's and 70's I know when it's proper to use those terms, and will play it by ear each time I meet someone new. Please don't be so speculative to say that most of the people who know something will require/subscribe to it, it may mean they don't know anything and shield it under the guise of courtesy and customs, or they have a bug in their bonnet (other explicitves can be used here as well). Under no circumstances have I ever used my rank, title, or position in the martial arts for introductions, or introduced myself as MR.. I have a name, I expect people to use it if they want me to listen to them.

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde

 

[Doc]

Originally posted by eternalwhitebelt

Wow, now I am comprehension challenged because I disagree with you. Okay what ever master, I mean Doctor. Exactly what do I call you? Speaking of college, where exactly did you get your Post Doctorate? You should just tell people you have a B.S. it would be more appropriate. Well, reread your post, you were refering to Ed Parker and how he allowed certain people to call him Ed. I do believe that is a reference to the martial arts. Last time I checked we are on a forum called Martial Talk. So sorry if I read between the lines. I assumed since you had a Post Doctorate you would have the ability to read between the lines. Sorry my mistake. I will keep everything literal next time so you can keep up and you will not get offended. If you care to continue with the negative posts please do I have enough ammo on you to go all year.

I was talking about manners and courtesy among men, and you were talking about "b.s." martial arts which offended me and probably many others. Your desire to "read between the lines" has not served you well. Perhaps it would be better to just respond to what is said, instead of what is not. I stand by my comments completely.

 

[eternalwhitebelt]

I am sorry but my desire to read between the lines has always served me well. Literal people lack imagination. Actually I am one of the most respectful men you could ever meet. I spent years in the military myself while also growing up in a military family. There is nothing you could share with me when it comes to respect that I have not already learned. I have a problem with people who demand to be called certain things. Whatever. You are no better than anyone else. I have a sneaking feeling that your thoughts come from your police background. This kind of pretense is a joke. You say you are aware of cultural differences yet you made a remark about how you chastise people in retail when they presume to think they can refer to you by your first name. If you were so understanding you would just blow it off and not consider it a big deal. If you have ever lived in another country you tend to not take your self and your cultureal beliefs too seriously. You begin to see that others do indeed have valid points. When it comes to your remark about the levels of knowledge being available and how it is usually comparable to the b.s. (my phrase) well I also disagree on this point. I had many profs. outside of class that prefered me to call them by their first name. One had won a pulitser for his writing. He lacked all pretense. He was a very good friend and he never withheld knowledge from me. I am sorry you have had experiences like that but that may be a reflection of your personality and your interactions with people you presume to be knowledgable. As for the martial arts every person that I respect knowledge wise prefers me to call them by their first name, whether we are on the mat or sharing a beer. It is a shame that you prefer to be called DOC. I respect your knowledge RON I just know where the info. came from, and I do not respect you for not telling the truth about that.

 

[arnisador]

Originally posted by RCastillo

That's it! I'm gonna sue Martial Talk!

We're broke! I swear!

I think "master" is still used to address a man under the age of majority in England, is it not? It was done in the most recent Austin Powers movie for the flashback to boarding school ("Master Powers", "Master Evil").

In Modern Arnis there is a Michael Bates who achieved the rank of Master...he was given the alternate title "jr. prof." rather than the unfortunate Master Bates.

 

[Doc]

Originally posted by eternalwhitebelt

I am sorry but my desire to read between the lines has always served me well. Literal people lack imagination. Actually I am one of the most respectful men you could ever meet. I spent years in the military myself while also growing up in a military family. There is nothing you could share with me when it comes to respect that I have not already learned. I have a problem with people who demand to be called certain things. Whatever. You are no better than anyone else. I have a sneaking feeling that your thoughts come from your police background. This kind of pretense is a joke. You say you are aware of cultural differences yet you made a remark about how you chastise people in retail when they presume to think they can refer to you by your first name. If you were so understanding you would just blow it off and not consider it a big deal. If you have ever lived in another country you tend to not take your self and your cultureal beliefs too seriously. You begin to see that others do indeed have valid points. When it comes to your remark about the levels of knowledge being available and how it is usually comparable to the b.s. (my phrase) well I also disagree on this point. I had many profs. outside of class that prefered me to call them by their first name. One had won a pulitser for his writing. He lacked all pretense. He was a very good friend and he never withheld knowledge from me. I am sorry you have had experiences like that but that may be a reflection of your personality and your interactions with people you presume to be knowledgable. As for the martial arts every person that I respect knowledge wise prefers me to call them by their first name, whether we are on the mat or sharing a beer. It is a shame that you prefer to be called DOC. I respect your knowledge RON I just know where the info. came from, and I do not respect you for not telling the truth about that.

You are entitled to your experieces and how you choose to interact with people, as I am. Once again your reading between the lines is incorrect. I do not prefer to be called "Doc," for it is only an informal screen name for this forum. As for the other, you know nothing about me, my knowledge, where it came from, or anything else for that matter that pertains to me. You know only what you've been told. In fact, you don't really even know my real name. I don't demand anyone refer to me in any manner, unless they choose a productive interaction. It is not my intent to tell anyone how they should interact with anyone, however I do have a right to control my own communications and familiarites. If you want to accept differences in culture, start with me. I don't appreciate people being familiar with me that I don't know, yet you seem intent on forcing your cultural preference on me while you remain anon. I think more than anything else, that speaks for itself.

 

[arnisador]

A Post-Doctorate is a position, not a degree.

Whether college profs. are called by their first name or not varies widely by the college and especially by geography. In any event it's fairly common for grad. students to call their profs. by their first names, for example.

One addresses an officer as Sir/Ma'am as a show of respect to the office, not the officer. (Yeah, I know that can be a hard distinction to swallow sometimes.) It's an assertion that the chain of command will be respected.

Formally, Mister is itself a title--e.g., the eldest child of a baronet was entitled to be addressed as Mister if of age, if memory serves.

I live in the Midwest and yesterday a two year old was calling me by my first name. My wife has long since given in to this custom but it still drives me crazy, and I insist my kids use Mr./Ms./Mrs. unless the adult insists otherwise. Even then I insist they refer to that person as Mr./Ms./Mrs. so-and-so even if they address them by their first name.

The instructors I respected most have had me call them sensei despite being a shihan, Mister despite being a datu, etc.

 

[Matt Stone]

The instructors I respected most have had me call them sensei despite being a shihan, Mister despite being a datu, etc.

The teachers that insisted you call them sensei as opposed to shihan were only using the terms properly.

IM (and others) O, titles such as shihan, kyoshi, renshi, hanshi, etc., are used only in written documents pertaining to that person. They are not terms to be used in verbal address, and it is considered impolite (edited by Yiliquan1) in Japan to do so.

Of course, it is also impolite (edited by Yiliquan1) in Japan to introduce yourself as "Sensei X," or (even more humously) "X Sensei."

In CMA, the terms are looser for teachers (the above titles being degrees of licensing as a teacher, not just terms for any old teacher), but more restrictive for juniors.

Whatever.

Gambarimasu.

 

[arnisador]

Originally posted by Yiliquan1

The teachers that insisted you call them sensei as opposed to shihan were only using the terms properly.

I know you're correct in a formal sense, but it's been my experience in the States that if one is a Shihan then they expect to be addressed as "Shihan Smith" etc. Whether this is arrrogance or ignorance of the custom to which you refer I don't know. In that sense it is something of a statement that looked for "only" sensei. Others may have had different experience with this of course!

 

[Matt Stone]

It boils down to ignorance of the words and their real use.

Somebody hands you a certificate written in a foreign language you don't speak, and you are told that now you are "rosebud" instead of "daisy petal."

What are you supposed to think?

Which leads me to the entire topic of broadening and deepening one's understanding of the culture and language behind the art being studied... Sometimes things don't really make sense until you go down that path - but few do.

Just the way things are, I suppose...

Doesn't mean I have to like it, though! :lol:

Gambarimasu.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

I know of at least 1 school where -every- black belt is called 'sensei'...5 yrs old and higher...

but thats a whole different thread...

It boils down to ignorance of the words and their real use.

I think says it all.

:asian:

 

[Matt Stone]

I guess I have come across the wrong way when I have posted my views of the monolingualism of American martial arts and artists...

Not everybody has the time nor inclination to dig into the ancient history of another country and culture just to better understand why they decided to punch and kick one way and not another.

For many people, simply punching and kicking that way is enough. And if it stopped there, I would be okay with that.

But what really chaps my butt is when these practitioners who have not done their homework sufficiently well begin teaching. They then pass on incomplete information to the unsuspecting and unwary.

Do they do so deliberately with malicious intent? Not hardly. But does it damage the fabric of our martial heritage nonetheless? You betcha.

If we were to allow high school teachers and university professors to roam the halls of higher education without having spent a satisfactory period of time learning certain aspects of their respective fields, we would rapidly see a diminishing capacity in those they are charged with instructing... While much of the details of many fields of study are left untouched in general education programs, those who choose to pursue those specializations do end up learning them... They are details that the unwashed masses find boring and inconsequential, but to the experts in the field it is the details that provide the demarcation between master and student...

And so it is with martial arts. We are not so significantly different in what we are doing as to totally ignore the university model of education. We have "professors" who are charged with the education of their students not in the gross information they should have already mastered elsewhere, but in the details of their specialization. Little things are the mark of mastery, not big things... It is the attention to detail that contrasts an expert with a novice...

Okay. So some folks don't care. That's fine too. As long as they don't teach, or if they do teach they don't presume to make things up that they don't have any knowlegde of. And, if corrected by someone who does have knowledge, they should accept that correction with the dignity and humility they should have developed by the time they were physically skilled enough to enable them to know enough to teach their art to others... Not everybody is a bookworm - I am, always have been - and that's fine. But if someone were to show a MA instructor a new way to perform a technique, they would likely accept that information with open arms.

To my mind, being corrected on language use, title use, customs, courtesies, etc., is little different.

However, as I step off my soapbox, I know it will never go away. We will forever be plagued by the conflict between the half-trained teacher and the know it all bookworm. Luckily enough, that whole yin/yang dualism thing has kept us going this long... perhaps the relationship between the bookworm and the knuckle-dragger is meant to be...?

Who knows.

Gambarimasu.

:asian:

 

[RCastillo]

Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz

I know of at least 1 school where -every- black belt is called 'sensei'...5 yrs old and higher...

but thats a whole different thread...


I think says it all.

:asian:

Oh great, now Kirk will wanna be called "Sensei!"
:rofl:

 

[RCastillo]

Originally posted by arnisador



We're broke! I swear!

I think "master" is still used to address a man under the age of majority in England, is it not? It was done in the most recent Austin Powers movie for the flashback to boarding school ("Master Powers", "Master Evil").

In Modern Arnis there is a Michael Bates who achieved the rank of Master...he was given the alternate title "jr. prof." rather than the unfortunate Master Bates.

Gee, that last paragraph is one to quit on!

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Mr. Stone hit on several important points.

I think in part it boils down to people dont want to accept that they spent 5+ years at something they either a-dont really understand, or b-got wrong. Take something simple - Sushi. How many folks think its raw fish? I've got 2 dictionaries. 1 defines it as "raw fish on rice" the other as "vinigared rice balls with raw fish or egg". I believe its actually 'seasoned rice' that is then topped or wrapped with "stuff". But I'm constantly explaining (with my limited knowledge) at the buffets.

Now, if we get a snack food wrong....how much else do we get wrong too? Who wants to really dig into it, when they have so much else to do. Easier to take someone elses word for it, even if they are wrong.

Sadly, most folks in the US know more about their favorite sports team than they do their own history. Ignorance of someone elses is almost a given. Its sad, but too often true. So when the instructor tells you he is 'Master McFly', and you bow 3 times to his instructors picture, and do a fancy 'dance' at the start and end of every class because 'thats the tradition', whos gonna question it.

Hell, I took Kenpo for about a year..took a guy from Sweden to finally explain to my what all those hand motions before and after the forms were really about (oh, and what short 1 really was for). I went back and asked the instructors at my old school..they had no idea.


As for me personally...please tell me when I've got it wrong...I want to learn as much as I possibly can about the arts and the cultures.

:asian:

 

[Matt Stone]

From History of Sushi

It wasn't until the eighteenth century that a clever chef named Yohei decided to forgo the fermentation and serve sushi in something resembling its present form. It became very popular and two distinct styles emerged Kansai style, from the city of Osaka in the Kansai region, and Edo style, from Tokyo, which was then called Edo. Osaka has always been the commercial capital of Japan, and the rice mercahnts there developed sushi that consisted primarily of seasoned rice mixed with other ingredients and formed into decorative, edible packages. Tokyo, located on a bay then rich with fish and shellfish, produced nigirizushi, featuring a select bit of seafood on a small pad of seasoned rice. Although the ornamental sushi of the Kansai region is still very popular, it is nigirizushi that that foreigners are familiar with.

And from International Gourmet

Some rules to remember:
Never pass food to someone using chopsticks. This act parallels passing cremated bones of a deceased relative at a Japanese funeral. If you must share food, pass them the plate so that they can pick from it instead.

If you take food from a shared plate (such as in the above situation), use the reverse ends of your chopsticks rather than the ends which go in your mouth.

Never bite into a piece of food and then replace the other half on your plate. Once you have picked something up you should eat all of it.

When not using your chopsticks, you should place them in front of you, parallel to the edge of the sushi bar, with the narrow ends in the provided hashi oki; never place them directly on the bar.
Never leave rice after a meal. Leaving any kind of food is considered rude, but leaving rice is especially so.

Never smoke in a sushi bar, it obscures the delicate flavours of the fish for everyone else. Ashtrays will likely be provided in many sushi bars (especially in Europe and America) but to use them is dismissive of the efforts of the chef.

Never expect the chef to handle money, another employee will settle the bill for you. People who handle the food never touch the money.

Do not ask for knives. This would imply that the food is so tough it can't be properly eaten without them.

Don't make wasabi soup with your soy sauce! Sushi Chef's cringe at this spectacle that Americans often make. Wasabi paralyzes your palette and will hide the subtle flavors that fish has when eaten raw.

And

Vinegared rice is the heart of all sushi. Despite what Americans think, sushi does not mean "fish" in Japanese but rather signifies any vinegared rice dish. The fish is sashimi. Wrap the two together in portions and sell it as sushi, and the name still refers to the rice, not the fish. Sushi is indeed the term for the special rice but it is modified, in Japanese, to zushi when coupled with modifiers that describe the different styles of this most popular dish.

There is more to find, of course, but just look at what there is to learn about a little ball of rice with a slice of raw fish on it... Imagine how little all of us know about so many things...

Gambarimasu.

:asian:

 

[eternalwhitebelt]

Arnisador. My response about his Post Doc. was right on. You hit the nail on the head. He claims to teach at an institute that resembles a university environement. PH. D. follows his name on his web site. That is my point exactly. He is claiming both of these. I will choose to leave this alone though and move on. Clyde I must say that I agree with you on the military thing. I feel exactly as you do.

 

[Doc]

Originally posted by eternalwhitebelt

Arnisador. My response about his Post Doc. was right on. You hit the nail on the head. He claims to teach at an institute that resembles a university environement. PH. D. follows his name on his web site. That is my point exactly. He is claiming both of these. I will choose to leave this alone though and move on. Clyde I must say that I agree with you on the military thing. I feel exactly as you do.

 

[kenpo3631]

I had of enough of the demanded sirs and ma'am to last a lifetime from 11 years in the USAF and I respected very few people that I called sir/ma'am.

With all due respect Clyde USAF people don't get much respect in general...:rofl: (joking)

Most of the time I referred to them by their rank, which kept things on an even keel with me.

Totally true. You HAVE to respect the rank, but you DON'T have to respect the person. That's a fact of life in the military.

I personally call everyone Sir or Ma'am, Mr. or Mrs. no matter where I am. It was how I ws raised. Usually I will as the person "What should I call you? Mr., by first name? What do you prefer?" I leave it all up to that person.

Let them decide:asian: