benefits/drawbacks of modern?

[Bujingodai]

I am an indie, want to state that off the front. But I do have to state some obivous facts.
One, as Kreth said if you can't see the effectiveness of Yoko Aruki or think that most other systems roll over the spine, re examine your opinion. If it is based off of Ashidas works, which I have seen. Is total kife, not Ninjutsu....authentic or not.

Another, Don Roley would have significant experience in the field. He has been training and researching for a while. Though I often disagree with his blanket statements of the indies, he as a rule has backup for what he writes.
Though again, I don't know how many of the indies schools have actually been Japan. I for one have not. 2005 is my year, and I would be more than happy to meet Don finally and chat.... and learn. I doubt the training in N America is much like over there. IMO from what I have seen on tape anyway.

As for Duncan, eh I wasn't too fancy over the tape he made some years ago, but thats me. Maybe he'd hand me my ***, so I am not going to say it doesn't work til I have felt it. But the gun stuff on the tape looks poor in my opinion, nor does the Taijustu have a "look" to it that I see as Ninjutsu. Whatever floats your boat, we all have opinions.

I don't care too much about whether your system is authentic, don't take that the wrong way as it sounds poor. But I just don't like outright lies of generational background and mystical temple training. Unless of course you can back it up.

I would however be interested in seeing who has actually met, trained etc etc, with any of these schools. I have done so with many of them. So my opinion is generally based on physical evidence.

 

[gmunoz]

Again Don, it seems you have gotten jiggy again... My intent was not to throw you into another one of your tantrums. Please accept my apology.

My experience with Bujinkan is only what I've seen on home video courses (Michael Pierce). There is also a Bujinkan group here in my hometown that gets together every Thursday night. From what I have seen, as I posted previously, taijutsu appears similar. It most definitely is different, but similar. I'm sorry if you don't agree, but that's my opinion from my experience.

You obviously aren't in agreement with how I train in To-Shin Do. No need to expound as you have so done in the past. I frankly don't care what you or anyone else thinks about how I choose to train or whether or not you think it's real training or not. That is not the topic for this discussion.

My simple question to you was what experience do you have with American Ninjutsu schools? That's it. I don't care to argue with you. I do respect you as a person and your apparent knowlege of Japanese Ninjutsu - I simply wanted to know. If it's too much trouble or that question seems offensive to you, then I appologize and just forget it.

 

[Enson]

you, Enson and Sojobow are all lining up to say that I am not qualified to say that they are not similar unless I have had a good deal of personal instruction in American ninjutsu.

So, when you want to say that an art is similar, personal experience is not needed in Japan, but no one else can say that they are different unless they meet your standard of personal instruction.
.

again can someone say "ditto"? these same tactics are used by you too don. being fellow mods and all i will tell you that you love to put people under the fire but can't stand a little candle flame yourself. try to understand others will defend their position... however wrong it might seem to you... just as you do yours.

You're kidding, right? You want me to show you how yoko aruki works on a chat forum? I've already explained the basic mechanics, try it out for yourself.

lets keep this on the same topic. there is a seperate thread for that.
re: gmunoz's study... well that is something for gmunoz to answer... but, if he feels he is getting quality instruction from his methods then you should respect that and not expect everyone to do as you do. again you can refer to other threads for this as well under general martial arts talk... there has been countless threads on this.
peace

 

[heretic888]

Errr.... what was the topic again?? :idunno:

 

[Don Roley]

My simple question to you was what experience do you have with American Ninjutsu schools?

Well, I seem to have upset you, based on your comments. I was not attacking you, just pointing out the logic you used. You seem to have taken offense with me pointing out that you seem to find it ok to call Hayes your teacher without meeting him, but do not seem to think that I can even express an opinion unless I have personal experience. Calm yourself and merely look at the stance you have taken and how strange I find it.

I will say this, if you can say that something is similar in Japan without ever being here, then I can say that I do not see the same based on my sources. And I have had experience by various means with such groups as Dux ryu, Nindo ryu, Tew ryu, Duncan's group and various other groups. I stand by my statement that none of them so far knows or practices anything close to the Tonsogata you find in the Togakure ryu. And, I think we can both agree that in terms of the Togakure ryu and the way things are done in Japan, that I am by far the more experienced.

 

[KyleShort]

From what I have seen, as I posted previously, taijutsu appears similar

I apologize as I am not totally sure as to the purpose of this statement, but I can say that similarities in appearence or even techniques does not mean that they share similar roots. For example, take ori in Bujinkan may be VERY similar to a Shaolin wrist chin na taught by Yang style Tai Chi. An irime nage in Aikido may appear very similar to a clothesline that a linebacker trains in. However, you could not suggest that these arts share common herritage or are based on the same thing. The only link is to say that there are only so many ways to move the human body and you will see similar techniques between all arts.

again can someone say "ditto"? these same tactics are used by you too don. being fellow mods and all i will tell you that you love to put people under the fire but can't stand a little candle flame yourself. try to understand others will defend their position... however wrong it might seem to you... just as you do yours.

I think the problem here is that if you feel that Don is not arguing well, then you are failing in the same way. I think he feels that you can't claim knowledge of similarities because you have no Japanese ninjutsu experience. But the coin has two sides...and you would feel that he can't claim knowledge of similarities with out experience in American ninjutsu.

So the real question is whether or not any of you are qualified to comment on each other's arts with out experiencing them?

One last thought about the whole candle flame thing. It seems to me that Don has held his composure well against some very pedantic posts such as "Enson 2 Others 0" and "My intent was not to throw you into another one of your tantrums"...I know you did not say these things Enson.

 

[sojobow]

You're kidding, right? You want me to show you how yoko aruki works on a chat forum? I've already explained the basic mechanics, try it out for yourself. Or, even better, go to one of Dale's classes, I'm sure he can show you some good applications for it.

Jeff

Nope, don't want to show me the crossing legs technique. This what I'm referring to. would be interesting to see the Ashida Kim dodge post where he then amended the claim. Also, show us these "several questionable group's" tactics. Since it doesn't belong in this thread, just start another one with the information. Pardon the confusion you had.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sojobow
Neos do not use the the term Ninjutsu or Ninjitsu to describe their art.


This dodge was invented by Ashida Kim when he was called on his (incorrect) use of ninjitsu. He then amended his claims to state that he used the kanji for truth (as opposed to art) intentionally.
Several of the questionable groups continue to use this tactic: "Well, of course what we do isn't ninjutsu, but it's in the same spirit." But they will loudly talk (or post) about ninja this and ninjutsu/ninjitsu that until called on it. As Don said, misleading.

 

[heretic888]

Am I the only one who has absolutely no idea as to what he just said?? :idunno:

 

[Kreth]

Am I the only one who has absolutely no idea as to what he just said?? :idunno:

Apparently, he wants me to show him exactly when Ashida Kim changed his story, as well as every time one of the fraud groups has used the "well it's not REALLY ninjutsu, we just call it that" dodge...

Jeff

 

[heretic888]

Apparently, he wants to show me exactly when Ashida Kim changed his story, as well as every time one of the fraud groups has used the "well it's not REALLY ninjutsu, we just call it that" dodge...

Ummmm..... ok?? :idunno:

So... what exactly was his point?? Just to repeat something you already knew??

 

[Kreth]

So... what exactly was his point?? Just to repeat something you already knew??

Sorry, typo in my post... he wants me to show him... Not like I'm going out of my way to prove something to a guy who can't even provide a source for his quotes....

Jeff

 

[heretic888]

Sorry, typo in my post... he wants me to show him... Not like I'm going out of my way to prove something to a guy who can't even provide a source for his quotes....

*shrugs* Personally, I wouldn't even waste my time. Not like its that important anyway.

I do find the claim that the neo groups as a whole no longer use the term "ninjutsu" or "ninjitsu" to refer to their arts rather, well, interesting. Unless you are referring to Takamatsu-den offshoots like Toshindo or the RBWI, I just don't see it. Dux, Kim, Duncan, and Saito all still refer to their respective schools as "ninjitsu". Nothing, as far as I can see, has really changed in that regard.

Laterz. :asian:

 

[sojobow]

*shrugs* Personally, I wouldn't even waste my time. Not like its that important anyway.

I do find the claim that the neo groups as a whole no longer use the term "ninjutsu" or "ninjitsu" to refer to their arts rather, well, interesting. Unless you are referring to Takamatsu-den offshoots like Toshindo or the RBWI, I just don't see it. Dux, Kim, Duncan, and Saito all still refer to their respective schools as "ninjitsu". Nothing, as far as I can see, has really changed in that regard. Laterz. :asian:

Two misrepresentations:

1)*****"I do find the claim that the neo groups as a whole no longer use the term "ninjutsu" or "ninjitsu" to refer to their arts rather, well, interesting."

2)*****"Dux, Kim, Duncan, and Saito all still refer to their respective schools as "ninjitsu". Nothing, as far as I can see, has really changed in that regard. "

No one here made the claim that neo groups as a whole no longer use the term and at least one of the 4 schools you've listed has long ago stopped referring to themselves, as a whole, as "ninjitsu." To address themselves as a "ninjitsu" school, one must first obtain special permission from the founder.

 

[heretic888]

No one here made the claim that neo groups as a whole no longer use the term

Really?? Well, then, how do you explain your first post on the 6th page of this thread:

Point 1: Neos do not use the the term Ninjutsu or Ninjitsu to describe their art. Neos may have used the term as a description day one - back in the day some 20 years ago, but, because of the evolution, they have long-since left this static, somewhat useless description. I understand how one can come to the conclusion that the moniker is an actual description of what neos do, but the confussion is really the result of not having any real-life experience in the neo (actually "Modern") schools.

I think the appropriate response now would be "gotchah".

and at least one of the 4 schools you've listed has long ago stopped referring to themselves, as a whole, as "ninjitsu."

Uhhhh.... nope. Ronald Duncan, Ashida Kim, Frank Dux, and Saito all still refer to their respective schools as "ninjitsu" schools.

To address themselves as a "ninjitsu" school, one must first obtain special permission from the founder.

*chuckle* Wish someone would'a told them that 20 years ago.

Heh. Laterz.

 

[Enson]

find it ok to call Hayes your teacher without meeting him, but do not seem to think that I can even express an opinion unless I have personal experience.
And I have had experience by various means with such groups as Dux ryu, Nindo ryu, Tew ryu, Duncan's group and various other groups. I stand by my statement that none of them so far knows or practices anything close to the Tonsogata you find in the Togakure ryu. And, I think we can both agree that in terms of the Togakure ryu and the way things are done in Japan, that I am by far the more experienced.

i have to disagree with most of your post. if gmunoz is learning from hayes through whatever medium then hayes would be his teacher. how do you learn of gossip? on the phone talking to someone. the phone itself is not the teacher but the person on the other line. you need less fire and more earth!:flame:

re: your experience with said schools. i don't know how since you are in japan and you said there are no such schools over there. "things that make you go humm?"
your post sounds like something sojobow would say and you therefor have no proof. you are so big on documentation. show me your membership card from rtms so i can see you have experience with this school. and i know you will say you were never a memeber and blah blah blah... but then how can you honestly say that you have experience in a certain ryu without actually studying it?
remember that you our on the modern side of ninjutsu and the way things are done here are not how they are done in japan. please keep the insults of other schools on the trad. side.

I think the problem here is that if you feel that Don is not arguing well, then you are failing in the same way. I think he feels that you can't claim knowledge of similarities because you have no Japanese ninjutsu experience. But the coin has two sides...and you would feel that he can't claim knowledge of similarities with out experience in American ninjutsu.

So the real question is whether or not any of you are qualified to comment on each other's arts with out experiencing them?

i agree with you. i am not trying to argue with don, i'm just trying to show him that he is using the same tactics that he despises so much.
peace

 

[sojobow]

Really?? Well, then, how do you explain your first post on the 6th page of this thread:

Point 1: Neos do not use the the term Ninjutsu or Ninjitsu to describe their art. Neos may have used the term as a description day one - back in the day some 20 years ago, but, because of the evolution, they have long-since left this static, somewhat useless description. I understand how one can come to the conclusion that the moniker is an actual description of what neos do, but the confussion is really the result of not having any real-life experience in the neo (actually "Modern") schools.

I think the appropriate response now would be "gotchah".

Yep, you got me on that one. Should have realized that most of us here only believe that there are only 4 "Neo-Ninjitsu" schools in existance. However, since I'm stuck on 4 out of probably 500 "Neo-Ninjitsu" schools that don't use the term "ninjitsu", I will defer to your generalization, or is it my generalization. Ya got me.

Uhhhh.... nope. Ronald Duncan, Ashida Kim, Frank Dux, and Saito all still refer to their respective schools as "ninjitsu" schools.

Here are the very first two lines from a certain website that I really don't want to discuss further. But, for clarification and as an example, I'll submit it:

"In 1980, long before the ninja craze, Hanshi Frank W. Dux founded the first American system of Ninjitsu--Dux Ninjitsu--later popularly shortened and referred to as Dux Ryu. "

*chuckle* Wish someone would'a told them that 20 years ago.
Heh. Laterz.

Since the terms "Ninjutsu and Ninjitsu" have at least 32 difference definitions, it could be possible that the 4 schools (actually 5) you so constantly try to debase may have different ways of defining what they do. From what I've seen so far, few, if any of us have actual knowledge of any one of the 5 schools in particular.

Lets keep the discussions on what we actually know that exist today. Since we are discussing benefits and drawback of Modern Schools, it seems that you are agruing that a drawback of Modern Schools is their name - specifically the term Ninjitsu. Since I argue that the there is no confusion among the actual practitionors of these schools, I don't really see a good argument against the term expecially when the overwhelming majority of these schools do not or no longer even use the term in the Fictitious Business Name.

Since Ninjutsu is supposedly regarding the the study of the ninja and their ways of accomplishment (which brings our definitions to 33), it seems quite logical that Ninjitsu is something altogether different in Modern Schools which incorporate far more than the study of the ninja and the ninja's ways of accomplishment in the Modern's curriculum. I'd think I'd rather have more than less.

But again, you got me if it makes you feel like jumping up shouting "I got sojobow ! ! ! ! !", be my guest.

 

[sojobow]

Strange how the name "sojobow" comes up in so many posts that have nothing to do with sojobow. This guy must be GREAT! Keep it up. (smiley face here)

 

[Kreth]

Thought I should appropriately label the quoted material:
:bs:
Now, to address some specific points...

Yep, you got me on that one. Should have realized that most of us here only believe that there are only 4 "Neo-Ninjitsu" schools in existance. However, since I'm stuck on 4 out of probably 500 "Neo-Ninjitsu" schools that don't use the term "ninjitsu", I will defer to your generalization, or is it my generalization. Ya got me.

If they don't use the term "ninjitsu" (which is a nonsense word anyway), then how are they neo-ninja?

"In 1980, long before the ninja craze, Hanshi Frank W. Dux founded the first American system of Ninjitsu--Dux Ninjitsu--later popularly shortened and referred to as Dux Ryu. "

I believe this claim fell apart in Dux' court case vs. Van Damme. But perhaps it's only his knockout and other records that were disproved. In any event, I find it curious that no one knew Dux (and Duncan, for that matter) were taching ninjitsu [sic] until after Hayes' books became popular and the ninja boom took off.

Since the terms "Ninjutsu and Ninjitsu" have at least 32 difference definitions

Could you provide documentation of this, from a reputable Japanese source? After all, they are Japanese words, well, ninjutsu is, anyway.

Lets keep the discussions on what we actually know that exist today. Since we are discussing benefits and drawback of Modern Schools, it seems that you are agruing that a drawback of Modern Schools is their name - specifically the term Ninjitsu. Since I argue that the there is no confusion among the actual practitionors of these schools,

Perhaps because most of said students don't know the proper terminology?

Since Ninjutsu is supposedly regarding the the study of the ninja and their ways of accomplishment (which brings our definitions to 33), it seems quite logical that Ninjitsu is something altogether different in Modern Schools which incorporate far more than the study of the ninja and the ninja's ways of accomplishment in the Modern's curriculum. I'd think I'd rather have more than less.

If it's different, why not give it a different name? And again, I'd love to hear these "definitions" from a reputable source.

But again, you got me if it makes you feel like jumping up shouting "I got sojobow ! ! ! ! !", be my guest.

BTDT...

Jeff

 

[heretic888]

remember that you our on the modern side of ninjutsu and the way things are done here are not how they are done in japan. please keep the insults of other schools on the trad. side.

*sigh* Enson, the point Don was making that what is being done is not ninjutsu. This might be an amazing shock, but not everything done in the Takamatsu-den is ninjutsu. The only ninjutsu that has been publicly taught is from Togakure ryu. If Bussey never learned much in Togakure ryu, he never learned ninjutsu. Plain and simple.

Gyokko ryu is not ninjutsu. Koto ryu is not ninjutsu. Takagi Yoshin ryu is not ninjutsu. Shinden Fudo ryu is not ninjutsu. None of these ninjutsu. They teach their own respective arts, none of which have that much to do with how a feudal spy would go about not getting captured.

Bussey split from the Bujinkan at a time when everything was blanketed as "ninjutsu" for whatever reasons. There is a reason its called budo taijutsu now.

Unless, of course, you think Tew learned his "ninjutsu" from Dux....

 

[heretic888]

Yep, you got me on that one. Should have realized that most of us here only believe that there are only 4 "Neo-Ninjitsu" schools in existance. However, since I'm stuck on 4 out of probably 500 "Neo-Ninjitsu" schools that don't use the term "ninjitsu", I will defer to your generalization, or is it my generalization. Ya got me.

If they do not use the term "ninjutsu" or "ninjitsu", then they are not "neo-ninjitsu" groups and should not be discussed on this forum.

"In 1980, long before the ninja craze, Hanshi Frank W. Dux founded the first American system of Ninjitsu--Dux Ninjitsu--later popularly shortened and referred to as Dux Ryu. "

I challenge you to prove this statement with independent verification. Gee, where's Mr. Busman when yah need him??