benefits/drawbacks of modern?

[sojobow]

Ninjutsu had many "roots", some of which were Japanese in origin and some of which were not. Same thing can be said for any number of Japanese cultural traditions, or non-Japanese ones for that matter.

Well said.

I sincerely doubt any of these neo-guys have "tested" their arts on the "modern battlefields".

don't understand this answer. Since you did use word "sincerely", I'll believe you. Why is so inconceivable. You don't think martial artist are members of todays military? You don't think what is taught in Modern schools has not been tested in actual battle? If what one is taught has not been tested in actual Kaos, we need to move to another school.

The truth is that no one really knows anything in life with 100 percent certainty. To twist this simple truth into the delusion that somehow everything is just anybody's guess is tantamount to an intellectual crime (if you know what I mean). Its the kinda crap the goofier postmodern writers get made fun of for nowadays...

I think this is what I just said. Glad you agree with me.

It would be akin to collapsing read and red into a single concept because, well, they sound "kinda alike".

I did follow the discussion. All I did was add another possibility. Not a big deal

Funny thing to me is that us postmodern writers mentions jet planes, AK-47's and we get the bick flicked and a few red negative points (some even call us "clowns"). Then when we find out that Hatsumi Sensei says to learn to fly and writes a book about modern weaponry, it gets real quiet and no one seems to remember castagating this goofier postmodern writer. Don't you think Hatsumi Sensei is moving towards becoming a "Modern" advocate? No need to apologize.

 

[Bester]

Real interesting Enson. I tried to add 4 individuals to the Ignore feature. 2 didn't work for some reason, 2 others didn't work because the message said they were moderators and couldn't be Ignored. I'll try again on the first 2.

Well, what would the point of having moderators if folks could just ignore them?

Then again, you're doing a great job without it.


I have 1 simple question: Ever had to use your training in a real life or death situation?
Has your teacher?

I mean, a real one, not one thats been consistantly debunked, or something out of a movie or book that the blind have fallen for?

Before you ask, yes I have, and yes, mine has.

The real art of Ninjutsu is not just Hatsumi, however all of the current valid paths cross with his. Some suggest "Oral" tradition, but that is not proof. Some point at proven extincts, but they are dead. Ninjutsu is not just "a word". It IS! a tradition. By ignoring that, or worse, twisting it into just another marketing scheme, you spit on the tradition, the memory and the honor of those who have gone before.

Honor is of course one of the things most lacking in almost all "Modern" arts and their "creators". Sadly, this raping of the arts is not just a "Neo" thing, but a plague that crosses all borders.

Any gym teacher can mix and match techniques and forms.
Without the history, the tradition, it is just another set of drills and egos.
How many lowbelts quit, buy a belt, print a paper, or buy a "Sokeship" (which is an entirely different pissing match), open a school and start ripping off those who fall for flash n tricks.

Why do the roots of the "Neo" movement seem to end in proven frauds, liars, and con artists whose "proof" are a batch of really bad movies, and whose certifications are all signed and "validated" by a bunch of "SokeDokes"?

 

[heretic888]

You don't think martial artist are members of todays military?

For the most part, no. There may be a few exceptions.

You don't think what is taught in Modern schools has not been tested in actual battle?

For the most part, no. There may be a few exceptions.

I think this is what I just said. Glad you agree with me.

Actually, that's not what you said at all.

I did follow the discussion. All I did was add another possibility. Not a big deal

What you added, in fact, was not "another possibility". It was a misconception owed to a lack of understanding the subject matter.

Funny thing to me is that us postmodern writers mentions jet planes, AK-47's and we get the bick flicked and a few red negative points (some even call us "clowns"). Then when we find out that Hatsumi Sensei says to learn to fly and writes a book about modern weaponry, it gets real quiet and no one seems to remember castagating this goofier postmodern writer.

Your ability to take what other people say out of context and warp them around to fit your agenda is incredible.

And, to note, I seriously doubt you have even studied postmodern philosophy, let alone understand enough of its core principles to describe yourself as an advocate. Also, learning to "fly planes" or "use modern weaponry" has nothing to do with postmodernism. Or what people are criticizing you of, either.

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

I'm a postmodernist. I believe sojobow is nothing but a mere social construction.

:lol:

 

[heretic888]

Personally, I think he's a self-reflexive patriarchal signifier denoting the disillusioned grass-roots subjectivity of the "ninjutsu" community vis a vis traditional epistemes of power and control.

Hee. :uhyeah:

 

[Don Roley]

Why do the roots of the "Neo" movement seem to end in proven frauds, liars, and con artists whose "proof" are a batch of really bad movies, and whose certifications are all signed and "validated" by a bunch of "SokeDokes"?

That is rather harsh, as well as being a rather sweeping generalization.

What about Dave Gibb? He is a member here and founded his own Neo style. And if he has ever lied about his past I have never caught him in it. Mind you, we disagree on a lot. Like I do not think that someone of his skill level should be starting a new art, nor using the name ninjutsu as if it was the same as in Japan. But he is not a con man, fraud, etc by any stretch of the imagination.

Yes, the bulk of guys who claim to be neo are out and out frauds. But we should not treat all of them in the same light.

And that is part of the problem, is it not? The styles that we refer to as neo ninjutsu groups are very different from what is called ninjutsu in Japan. To the begginer they may look the same. To a begginer all martial arts look like "kuroty" and it is only after several years that people start to be able to tell the difference between Japanese and Chinese styles. A bit more experience and they may be able to tell the difference between Northern and Southern Chinese styles. But just because the rank amatuer cannot tell the differences, does not mean they are not there.

And this is why Martialtalk split up the ninjutsu forum into those groups that can be found in Japan and those that use the name, but move nothing like them or have the same background. But even among the neo groups there is a huge variety of movements. Trying to come to terms with all the differnet backgrounds can be kind of a problem when discussing techniques. You have Dave Gibb who actually has training in the Bujinkan (no certificate in Togakure ryu) and folks who have studied TKD and read a book by Ashida Kim who want to start their own "interpetation" of ninjutsu. How the heck you can all try to communicate and express yourselves is beyond me.

 

[Kizaru]

Some suggest "Oral" tradition, but that is not proof. Some point at proven extincts, but they are dead. Ninjutsu is not just "a word". It IS! a tradition. By ignoring that, or worse, twisting it into just another marketing scheme, you spit on the tradition, the memory and the honor of those who have gone before.

:iws:

 

[Bujingodai]

Don, I appreciate your words thank you.
Now in honesty I didn't form my own ryu. I do have a teacher. I did however form or compilate the system that is used. The school not the style, I am a businessman so that part was what I did. I don't regret it.
I do hold dan rank in the Kan. My leaving the Kan and the start of the Bujingodai is really nothing intentional, we've discussed that.
No doubt there are a lot of goofballs out there. That is why I founded what I did with the UNS/UNV or whatever form it was in so that for the more serious person one could cross train and see for themselves, at the very least create a platform where they could be heard. It seems to be working well.

I do enjoy the cross training. As I do enjoy the Bujinkan training as well. Believe it or not there is a good deal of indies that have some real skill out there, some of them don't. I don't agree with them all on everything, but I meet them 1st to get my opinion. I have trained with many of the groups that are spoken of. I am open with my opinions of them all.

Regardless, I don't bother lying about my past. It serves no purpose at all. I don't lie about it to the people I train either.

Anyway. Good discussion, a little hard to follow at points.

 

[Enson]

Anyway. Good discussion, a little hard to follow at points.

i'll agree with that.
originally this thread was started by me to get the modern folk talking. it was when the thread had barely split and i didn't think there was going to be much crossing over to sides. now that being said... i feel impo that things have gotten off topic a bit and should really get back on. agendas and schedules are obvious when all you do is talk about the same thing that was said in the shuriken, skh, ninjukai, every other thread. i think if the conversation takes the same twist on every thread then someone has an agenda... lets get things back on track and use the search button to find where this topic is going to lead at the rate its going.
peace

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

As for the meaning of the kanji...has anyone here seen Jet Li's Fist of Legend? The next time you watch it, pay attention to the kanji on the board Chen Zhen smashes while mourning his murdered teacher. According to the film, in Chinese it supposedly means "tolerance"...

 

[heretic888]

i feel impo that things have gotten off topic a bit and should really get back on. agendas and schedules are obvious when all you do is talk about the same thing that was said in the shuriken, skh, ninjukai, every other thread. i think if the conversation takes the same twist on every thread then someone has an agenda... lets get things back on track and use the search button to find where this topic is going to lead at the rate its going.

Off-topic?? I don't think so, personally.

Drawbacks were asked concerning neo-practice. The drawback I provided was the ahistorical, contradictory, confusing name many neo-groups give to their arts.

That has basically been a major crux of the discussion since then, peppered with false analogies from postmodern philosophy and Mexican food.

Hee. :asian:

 

[Enson]

Off-topic?? I don't think so, personally.

postmodern philosophy and Mexican food.

Hee. :asian:

mexican food is great... and spicey!!!!artyon:

 

[sojobow]

mexican food is great... and spicey!!!!

I'd say that having an opponent more concerned about a confusing name is worthwhile as they'd never see that Kali stick being stuck in their eye socket. Some real important stuff like mexican food. Absolute Ninjitsu misdirection-concerned with a word being more important than the abilities and effectiveness of the students.

 

[Don Roley]

I'd say that having an opponent more concerned about a confusing name is worthwhile as they'd never see that Kali stick being stuck in their eye socket. Some real important stuff like mexican food. Absolute Ninjitsu misdirection-concerned with a word being more important than the abilities and effectiveness of the students.

Well your last statement has a false premis- namely that what you do is effective. There are many Ashida Kim fans that ooh and aah over what he does, but I merely have to take a look at the way he places his hand on a sword and scabbard to see that he is not drawing it as effectively as he could.

But your first part kind of shows the crux of the problem. Using a Kali stick and still calling it Ninjutsu.

I have respect for kali. I have the Dog Brothers tapes, Dan Insanto stuff and even pushed for a certain person to be assigned as an English teacher in my city becasue he used to teach Kali in England and I wanted the chance to exchange lessons. But if I want kali on martialtalk I can go to our section on it and just read, ask questions, etc. When I came to the ninjutsu section (pre split) it was strange to see people using kali stuff and ninjutsu stuff as if there was no fundemental differences in the approach of the arts.

And I think that is because many of the neo folks like Fank Dux just do not know enough to realize that there are differences between arts like that. The mainly strike me as fitting this description of Martial Arts Pirates. A little of this, a little of that, with no deep understanding of any of it.

Let's stay with the kali example. From what I have seen of the Kali/ Escrima, it is a deep, rich art that a person could easily spend five or more years going to a class with an instructor every week and still not completely suck the marrow from the bones. So, how the heck can someone who heads his own art honestly do that? To go from the guy who has hundreds of people bow to him to the most junior member of the class is a form of ego rejection that none of them seem to be willing to do. They can go to seminars from time to time and posture with their group. (Seen it.) But to go alone and tie on the white belt every week is not something I have seen any of the guys that add kali sticks to their "ninjutsu" do. They do not have the time, nor the ability to take that lowering of status.

I am fortunate in that I have always been a student. I do not have to worry about what others think of me if I am the Freaking New Guy of the class. Since I have no students and no status I do not have to fear about losing either. Next week I start Chen style taiji training. Hopefully I can take lessons in it once a week or so for the next five years before I move out of Japan. This is on the side of my regular training. I do not see that type of training in terms of frequency, one- on- oneness or length of time from anyone who has made themselves an American grandmaster of ninjutsu.

 

[sojobow]

But your first part kind of shows the crux of the problem. Using a Kali stick and still calling it Ninjutsu.

Kind of reminds me of a movie I saw a long time ago where Struther "Don Roley" Martin pulls up his overalls, sticks out his chest and says something like: "I know ever thing bout ever thing." Incidently, a Kali stick is a Kali stick. Doesn't matter if you're in TKD or any Jitsu. In modern ninjitsu, as well as any other modern art dedicated to warfare and winning, you'd better know something about ALL weapons in existance. If you're dedicated to studying how the ancient Ninja accomplished whatever they set out to do, then, guess all you need to know is their ancient artform.

Congratulations on your new training in the Chen style. Hope it goes well. Isn't the Chen style a Chinese style? Interesting. (You mentioned that name again!!)

 

[Don Roley]

If you're dedicated to studying how the ancient Ninja accomplished whatever they set out to do, then, guess all you need to know is their ancient artform.

And if you want to know what modern ninja would do, it makes sense to understand what they really were and what they really did rather than base your version on a Sho Kusugi movie.

Otherwise, you might have one of those cases of martial arts pirates that I provided a link to that play with a lot of things like kali sticks, but don't have a real understand of anything they teach.

My Japanese teacher and I are both taking the principles of movement, etc that can be found in the Bujinkan and applying it to the application of the A.S.P. baton. I personally think it is a much better approach than the guys who try to add on things from other arts and end up with something that looks stiched together like Frankenstein's monster.

And yes, I am going to study a Chinese art. Your point? It is not the first one I have studied. I find it very different from Japanese arts, but that just expands my experience. Unlike some who can't even tell the difference between a Japanese and a Chinese style.

 

[Kizaru]

Kind of reminds me of a movie I saw a long time ago where Struther "Don Roley" Martin pulls up his overalls, sticks out his chest and says something like: "I know ever thing bout ever thing." ...

Incidentally, from what I've heard, Don Roley's gigglets have proven themselves twice, is there anyone else in the modern section that can claim that? I think not. Based on this, we may want to pay a little more credence to what he's got to say before dismissing him completely.

:asian:

 

[Enson]

My Japanese teacher and I are both taking the principles of movement, etc that can be found in the Bujinkan and applying it to the application of the A.S.P. baton..

in most modern arts i see that is the whole idea of using different weapons. "applying principles".
that can be used for many things. like using a thick dog chain as a kasuri fondo (sp?) etc. just something different but learning how to apply the technique is so rewarding.

 

[sojobow]

And if you want to know what modern ninja would do, it makes sense to understand what they really were and what they really did rather than base your version on a Sho Kusugi movie. ........ like Frankenstein's monster.

And yes, I am going to study a Chinese art. Your point? It is not the first one I have studied. I find it very different from Japanese arts, but that just expands my experience. Unlike some who can't even tell the difference between a Japanese and a Chinese style.

once we have understand these accomplishments, we can either 1.) Keep on just practicing this hobby of traditionalism, or, 2.) move on to understanding what has developed SINCE and ADDING to the body of knowledge. Objective, developing what will win today which was the objective of the Shinobi of hundreds of years ago (winning today). This is one thing I appreciate about Modern Martial Sciences, as the Shinobi gathered as much knowledge as possible and in existance during his lifetime, seems the Moderns are doing the same thing.

I think we all have studied some type of Chinese martial art. Nothing wrong with that, it's just a reality and to give credit where credit is due is one of my own motivations. As I said, congratulations. don't take it something against you personally. It is meant to bow to your thirst for knowledge.

Hey, what's up with the remarks about Sho Kusugi's movies. I like Sho. Frank Junior is a Mary Shelly classic. Frank reminds me of me - moves real slow

 

[Kizaru]

and to give credit where credit is due is one of my own motivations.

"give credit where credit is due" is one of your "motivations"? You're kidding, right?!?!