benefits/drawbacks of modern?

[Don Roley]

The Bujinkan has far more practitioners outside of Japan than inside. This is a fact.

It amazes the Japanese as well. I think you can say the same about Judo, Karate and Aikido as well. Japanese arts that have mainly non-Japanese practicioners when you look at the total worldwide.

 

[gmunoz]

What are we talking about here? Benefits/drawbacks of modern or Bujinkan schools? Someone please clarify.

 

[gmunoz]

It's not exactly plagiarism, but it is similar. It's like if I made a hamburger with one bun, folded it in half, and called it a taco. It'd be like, "well, it kinda looks like a taco, but that's not the way they make them in Mexico."

I see your point but on another hand, when someone comes from Mexico, they too must learn that a taco in the U.S. are different. No matter what they are in Mexico, they are different in America. They can gripe, bicker, pout, and pump their fists in the air. When you ask for a taco, they will get something similar, but definitely different. Your analogy is terribly inaccurate. Actually the tacos in America are better - more satisfying, bigger, more full. If you go to Mexico there will be different versions of what you ask for in a taco. If you simply ask for a taco, you may get a rolled up tortilla with whatever filling that it calls for depending on the area of Mexico you're from. You may also get a small, round, open tortilla with fish, meat, or vegetables. I've traveled to Panama, Costa Rica, and other areas as well. You ask for a taco and whatever place you're in determines the meaning for that word. In America, you ask for a taco, you will get a taco based on America's meaning.

IMO, the same applies to ninjutsu. Ninjutsu in America is similar to what it is in Japan, but definitely different. Can we say therefore, that it isn't ninjutsu? Absolutely not.

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

So called "American Ninjutsu" refers to training in armed and unarmed combat skills. That isn't ninjutsu.

 

[sojobow]

So called "American Ninjutsu" refers to training in armed and unarmed combat skills. That isn't ninjutsu.

Point 1: Neos do not use the the term Ninjutsu or Ninjitsu to describe their art. Neos may have used the term as a description day one - back in the day some 20 years ago, but, because of the evolution, they have long-since left this static, somewhat useless description. I understand how one can come to the conclusion that the moniker is an actual description of what neos do, but the confussion is really the result of not having any real-life experience in the neo (actually "Modern") schools. Modern's have no objection in training and working out with the "authentics" as well as anyone in any other style or system. Its all a learning process.

Neos are not concerned with "authenticity." They are mostly concerned with what is efficient in relation to winning today. What is more important today, winning or being stuck on "authentic? But if one wants to keep rolling down their spine, and crossing their legs, be my guest.

Would be nice if the moderators chill on the arguments and just realize that Enson is right, stop making excuses for each other and move on.

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

Point 1: Neos do not use the the term Ninjutsu or Ninjitsu to describe their art.

:sadsong:

Neos may have used the term as a description day one - back in the day some 20 years ago, but, because of the evolution, they have long-since left this static, somewhat useless description.

That sounds more like Budo Taijutsu practicioners.

I understand how one can come to the conclusion that the moniker is an actual description of what neos do, but the confussion is really the result of not having any real-life experience in the neo (actually "Modern") schools.

See comment on quote #1.

Neos are not concerned with "authenticity." They are mostly concerned with what is efficient in relation to winning today.

Please don't try to tell me you thinkthe strategy used in the Battle of Iga is efficient in relation to winning today?

 

[Kreth]

Neos do not use the the term Ninjutsu or Ninjitsu to describe their art.

This dodge was invented by Ashida Kim when he was called on his (incorrect) use of ninjitsu. He then amended his claims to state that he used the kanji for truth (as opposed to art) intentionally.
Several of the questionable groups continue to use this tactic: "Well, of course what we do isn't ninjutsu, but it's in the same spirit." But they will loudly talk (or post) about ninja this and ninjutsu/ninjitsu that until called on it. As Don said, misleading.

But if one wants to keep rolling down their spine, and crossing their legs, be my guest.

I have never been taught to roll along my spine in a Bujinkan dojo. And if you can't understand how yoko aruki can actually be useful in the right situation, well...... :idunno:

Would be nice if the moderators chill on the arguments and just realize that Enson is right, stop making excuses for each other and move on.

Would be nice if the budding fantasy author in our midst took a break from the forums to get some training in, or do some actual research (other than Google).

Jeff

 

[Enson]

Please don't try to tell me you thinkthe strategy used in the Battle of Iga is efficient in relation to winning today?

i think sojobow is more interested in strategy as a personal hobbie, and not refering to neo skills. then again sojobow is sojobow and i only understand about half of what he writes.

Would be nice if the moderators chill on the arguments and just realize that Enson is right, stop making excuses for each other and move on.

thanks, :asian:

That sounds more like Budo Taijutsu practicioners.

sounds like they do everything modern does... maybe we are not so different eh? "i'm turning japanese, i think i'm turning japanese... i really think so"

peace

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

i think sojobow is more interested in strategy as a personal hobbie, and not refering to neo skills.

Now, I think we both know that if that was the case, he wouldn't keep mentioning what works today, and the most efficient manner in which to "win".

sounds like they do everything modern does... maybe we are not so different eh?

Modern people do not study taijutsu as a way of understanding ninjutsu. By this I mean that there is no ninjutsu without taijutsu.

 

[MisterMike]

Then there's good ol' Ronald "Way of the Winds" Duncan. I didn't know there were any systems of "shinobi-no-jitsu" with predominantly aiki-based unarmed techniques...

I couldn't find anything like that on the website.

The Way of the Winds™ system not only entails training in ninjitsu, but also encompasses a comprehensive approach to all of the many facets of Ronald Duncan's history as a martial artist. Self defense and combative strategies are the main emphasis of training as students are also exposed to the traditional Budo arts. such as jujitsu, aiki-jujitsu, kobujitsu (weaponry), and Karate-do.

It seems to be his own system based on traditional Budo as well as ninjitsu.

He does have an impressive background.

Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Date: 1995/10/27


Here is the listing of Ronald Duncan's martial art experience that one of
his students was kind enough to forward to me. Hopefully other martial
historians will look into it and see whether it raises questions with
them or not...

Professor Ronald Duncan

1943 Boxing
1944-48 Chi-Chi-Su
1948-54 Kappo-Ryu
Takenouchi-Ryu
Yoshin-Ryu
Toda-Ryu
Sekiguchi-Ryu
1954-56 Kodokan Judo
Shaken-Jutsu
Shuriken-Jutsu
1956 Hassei-Ho Ryu
Ho-Jutsu
1957 Kodokan Judo
Aikido/Aiki-Jitsu
Tenshin-Shoden Katori-Shinto-Ryu
Kindai-Ryu
1957-59 Kodokan Judo
Kempo
Kendo
Kenjutsu
Yawara
Kuimiuchi
Karate
1960-62 Oda-Korosa (Koga)
Kyushin-Ryu Ninjustu
1962-64 Hakko-Ryu
Dai-nippon-Ryu
Sosuishitsu-Ryu
1964-66 Masaki-Ryu
Miura-Ryu
Tenshin-Shoden Katori-Shinto-Ryu
Toda Ryu
1966-69 Kyushin-Ryu
Masaki-Ryu
Gyokku-Ryu
Kiai-Jutsu
Haragei-Jutsu
1970-74 Kobujutsu
Madaku-Ryu
Oda-Korosu-Shinobi-No-Jutsu
Shaken-Jutsu
Yadome-Jutsu
1974-79 Zaha-Ryu
Fuhi-Ryu

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

I seriously doubt Duncan has been involved with Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto ryu so long so as to having learned any ninjutsu. Other than that and the Bujinkan, ninjutsu is not very easy to come by. Furthermore, he refers to ninjutsu (actually, "ninjitsu") as physical techniques of combat. It is nothing of the sort. Then there's his knife techniques. Those seem more Filipino in origin than Japanese. I gather that can be attributed to his association in the 70's with Leo Gaje of Pekiti Tirsia Kali.
I'm not even going to comment on his technique with a kodachi in which he drops the scabbard on the floor simply because he doesn't know what to do with it for the moment.

My Japanese is poor at best, but doesn't Oda Korosu mean something like "killing Oda"? Surely, he isn't referring to the technique used by the ninja who killed Oda Nobunaga?:uhyeah:

 

[Kizaru]

I couldn't find anything like that on the website.
He does have an impressive background.

"Yadome" is arrow stopping; I can only imagine how he accomplishes that...probably makes himself look like a pin cushion...

And he's got Tenshin Katori Shinto ryu listed twice in there, along with other arts within the same time period. As far as I know, after you take the "Keppan" (blood oath) in Tenshin Katori Shinto ryu, you agree not to train with any other ryu-ha...

 

[Kizaru]

Point 1: Neos do not use the the term Ninjutsu or Ninjitsu to describe their art.

Awesome. If you're not even using the name ninjutsu, then I guess you don't need to continue posting here! There's no relation or connection at all, so you can just move on! Awesome...

Neos are not concerned with "authenticity." .

Okay, following your logic you have two groups. One is "authentic" the other, which you call "Neo" is "not authentic". If something is "not authentic" then what is it? I think it's great that we're beginning to see things from the same perspective!

:asian:

 

[Don Roley]

IMO, the same applies to ninjutsu. Ninjutsu in America is similar to what it is in Japan, but definitely different. Can we say therefore, that it isn't ninjutsu? Absolutely not.

IIRC, you do not have much experience with many American Ninjutsu schools, nor can tell the Tonsogata from Gyokko ryu. I have trained in the Tonsogata under Hatsumi and other Japanese, and I have the misfortune of seeing a lot of "neo" groups over the years. Trust me, they are different. Most people probably can't tell, since most people can't tell you the difference between Wing Chun and BJJ. But if you have some experience and know what to look for, then it is obvious that the Neo groups are nothing like Togakure ryu ninjutsu in Japan.

 

[Enson]

IIRC, you do not have much experience with many American Ninjutsu schools,

can someone say ditto?

peace

 

[sojobow]

:sadsong:
Please don't try to tell me you thinkthe strategy used in the Battle of Iga is efficient in relation to winning today?

Ok, I won't tell you. I don't know what the strategy was but I'd like to.

IIRC, you do not have much experience with many American Ninjutsu schools, nor can tell the Tonsogata from Gyokko ryu. I have trained in the Tonsogata under Hatsumi and other Japanese, and I have the misfortune of seeing a lot of "neo" groups over the years. Trust me, they are different. Most people probably can't tell, since most people can't tell you the difference between Wing Chun and BJJ. But if you have some experience and know what to look for, then it is obvious that the Neo groups are nothing like Togakure ryu ninjutsu in Japan.

Were these neo groups you observed located in Japan or elsewhere. I notice you constantly mention Kim, Duncan and others. Have you observed their teachings and students personally? Would have been an excellent post had you not used the word "misfortune." I'd guess there are those that think and say the same thing about you and your school.

All these comments on others is getting old especially when you don't have any first-hand knowledge of them or even can show us the quotes from those not present to defend themselves. would be nice if Kreth showed us what he's talking about versus giving us his opinion. Let us decide for outselves (the Neo way) versus swallow other's opinions (the Other way). Just show us what was said (" ") versus "I said that he said that they said was in ......"

Enson was right again. Enson 2 Others 0.

 

[gmunoz]

IIRC, you do not have much experience with many American Ninjutsu schools, nor can tell the Tonsogata from Gyokko ryu.

Don,

Please don't take this as an attack against you as I normally see you do with others. My question is what experience, to speak of, do you have with American Ninjutsu schools other than seeing others (neo schools as you put it)? I was under the impression you train in Japan? Please clarify.

 

[Don Roley]

My question is what experience, to speak of, do you have with American Ninjutsu schools other than seeing others (neo schools as you put it)? I was under the impression you train in Japan? Please clarify.

Before I do so, maybe you would like to explain the experience that the judgement by you I was responding to is based on. Namely,

Ninjutsu in America is similar to what it is in Japan, but definitely different. Can we say therefore, that it isn't ninjutsu? Absolutely not.

Based on what you have written on the internet, it seems that your experience with martial arts is confined to a video home study course from Stephen Hayes for a short period of time so far. You claim Hayes as your teacher, but you live several time zones away and don't even seem to have ever been in the same room with him. You have made no mention of personal instruction in a regular Bujinkan dojo, a trip to Japan or instruction under Hatsumi.

Despite this lack of personal experience, you feel qualified to say that the ninjutsu in Japan and American (neo) ninjutsu is similar. On the other hand, you, Enson and Sojobow are all lining up to say that I am not qualified to say that they are not similar unless I have had a good deal of personal instruction in American ninjutsu.

So, when you want to say that an art is similar, personal experience is not needed in Japan, but no one else can say that they are different unless they meet your standard of personal instruction.

Personally, I think it is far easier to look at something and say that it is different from what you do than to actually learn that art. So, after years of learning the Togakure ryu in Japan, I feel no hesitation in looking at something and saying that it shows charecteristics different from what I am learning. I would not say that I know the other art well enough to do it or receive rank in it based solely on watching a video, but saying that it is not the same as something I have spent years of personal instruction in is another matter.

 

[Kizaru]

Personally, I think it is far easier to look at something and say that it is different from what you do than to actually learn that art. So, after years of learning the Togakure ryu in Japan, I feel no hesitation in looking at something and saying that it shows charecteristics different from what I am learning. I would not say that I know the other art well enough to do it or receive rank in it based solely on watching a video, but saying that it is not the same as something I have spent years of personal instruction in is another matter.

:iws:

 

[Kreth]

would be nice if Kreth showed us what he's talking about versus giving us his opinion.

You're kidding, right? You want me to show you how yoko aruki works on a chat forum? I've already explained the basic mechanics, try it out for yourself. Or, even better, go to one of Dale's classes, I'm sure he can show you some good applications for it.

Jeff