Belt Rank Progress

[jks9199]

Most people go to University with the (occasionally misguided...) intent of graduating with a degree that will aid them in their quest to Put Food On The Table and occasionally Go On A Vacation.

Having the same expectations of earning a 1st degree black belt is hardly reasonable...

And the university spells out the requirements and process for getting that sheepskin. But you still have to make the graduation application.

I get Photonguys point; his teachers should have made the process clear and available. I'm a bit skeptical that it wasn't spelled out somewhere that an 18 to 20 year old might have missed...

OK -- but I'm still lost on why this one thing was such an all-shadowing event. Did it force him from a career path as a martial arts teacher? Did he lose an inheritance or the like because he didn't get the black belt by 20? His girl dump him? I'm sorry, and I know I'm being a little facetious with this -- but I don't get why it's still such an issue for him.

 

[ballen0351]

Well in that case, why go to school and care about getting an A? Just study and be happy, who needs grades anyway.

A belts not a grade. I've seen pretty crappy black belts and amazing brown belts. I think your holding the "black belt" as some magical life altering achievement. It's just another steping stone.

 

[ballen0351]

Its a hobby for some people, and than there's those who want to make a career out of it.

And a 20 yr old black belt shouldn't be worrying about making a living teaching martial arts. They are still learning.

 

[PhotonGuy]

A belts not a grade. I've seen pretty crappy black belts and amazing brown belts. I think your holding the "black belt" as some magical life altering achievement. It's just another steping stone.

You're right, it is another stepping stone, but its magical and life altering in the fact that once you make black belt, you take your training to a whole new level.

 

[Blindside]

You're right, it is another stepping stone, but its magical and life altering in the fact that once you make black belt, you take your training to a whole new level.

Really? What changed in your practice habits to get you to that "whole new level?"

 

[ballen0351]

Really? What changed in your practice habits to get you to that "whole new level?"

The color of your belt I guess. I dont even wear a belt half the time I practice. I guess Im doing it wrong.

 

[Blindside]

Maybe if I was still in an art that used a belt system I could make it to that new level.

 

[lklawson]

MA training is hardly college.

You are misunderstanding the point.

Its a hobby for a majority of people. Nothing more no matter how much you want to believe your a human weapon.

Of course it's a hobby. When I train in Military Saber & Singlestick, it's for fun and because I think it makes my knife-work better (which is, also, mostly a hobby), not because I expect to get in a duel with Cavalry Sabers.

BUT if you keep training and not worry about the rank well guess what the rank will come on its own in due time regardless

The point being missed is that writing, "if you just want a black belt, I can mail you three" is completely off the mark and, frankly, a bit condescending. The goal of a "black belt" is not about the piece of fabric, it's about what the awarding of said fabric recognizes about the holder. It's a tangible recognition of skill from a respected authority (the instructor). It would be the same if, instead of belts, the instructor awarded lapel pins, shoulder or breast patches, different colored boxing gloves, or nothing more than an actual certificate. It's the instructor, institution, or authorizing body standing up and saying to the world, "We certify that Joe Blow here has XYZ skills."

And, no, sometimes not worrying about rank and continuing to train WON'T make rank come on it's own. It didn't in the PhotonGuy's case. What did come (we assume) is more skill. Yes, if you're dedicated, moderately talented, and have good instructors then, generally, skill will naturally grow. But that's no guarantee of recognition of said skill.

Now, I know that some people will say, "who cares if anyone recognizes my skill?, as long as I've got it, that's what's important." That sounds nice and all, but it ignores actual human psychology. The human brain doesn't work that way. Humans, particularly males, crave recognition. It's often an important element of furthering the "ultimate goal" of attaining more skill. Human Resource departments and good Managers the world over have figured this out. They've found that giving out "Recognition of Achievement" awards, or even just a simple pat on the back and and 'attaboy', is a great way to help motivate employees.

Yes, it's true that some people "buy the belt" just so that they can boast or have people believe they have skill which they do not. But, to be honest, they're actually a minority. Most people in my experience actually want to learn the skills but they need to have it recognized too. It's just a basic human need.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[lklawson]

Most people go to University with the (occasionally misguided...) intent of graduating with a degree that will aid them in their quest to Put Food On The Table and occasionally Go On A Vacation.

Having the same expectations of earning a 1st degree black belt is hardly reasonable...

You're also misunderstanding my point. See what I wrote to ballen.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[lklawson]

And the university spells out the requirements and process for getting that sheepskin. But you still have to make the graduation application.

Yes, I agree.

I get Photonguys point; his teachers should have made the process clear and available. I'm a bit skeptical that it wasn't spelled out somewhere that an 18 to 20 year old might have missed...

Yes, I'm still a bit bemused by that as well. I'm not dismissing it out of hand, but, if so, it's certainly way outside of the norm. I can imagine a scenario where this sort of thing might happen. PhotonGuy has already stated that he believed there was a sort of unstated rule that you had to wait for Sensei's special blessing to test. Add to that the somewhat bizarre pseudo-mystical reverence that general Western society has given to the oriental concept of martial arts Sensei, and I can see why someone might believe that it would be rude or something to directly ask the instructor. Sort of an odd convergence of "Dude, if you're Catholic, you don't question the Pope" and "if you have to ask how much it costs, you can't afford it."

OK -- but I'm still lost on why this one thing was such an all-shadowing event. Did it force him from a career path as a martial arts teacher? Did he lose an inheritance or the like because he didn't get the black belt by 20? His girl dump him? I'm sorry, and I know I'm being a little facetious with this -- but I don't get why it's still such an issue for him.

Well, it's pretty well established by now that "ruined my life" was a bit of hyperbole and actually more closely represents "I'm incredibly frustrated by the whole situation, cheezed off by the 'don't ask' attitude of the Dojo, and aggravated at myself for just blindly accepting it." However, I've decided, instead, to believe that the true cause of the upset is that, in order to aid him in achieving his goal, his girlfriend decided to cut him off until he made black belt. Can you imagine a >2 year "dry spell"???

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[lklawson]

You're right, it is another stepping stone, but its magical and life altering in the fact that once you make black belt, you take your training to a whole new level.

I wish.

Unless by "magical" and "whole new level" you mean, "we now expect more from you and you have more responsibilities around the Dojo."

Nothing magical about it outside of the magical feeling that, "thank heavens, finally someone has officially recognized all the hard work I've done and the skill that I gained from said hard work." But, yeah, that can be a pretty special moment, really.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I started at the age of 12 and I was a high level brown belt, the rank right before black belt, shortly after I turned 18. So my goal was very realistic, I had almost 2 years to go that one extra rank.

And a 20 yr old black belt shouldn't be worrying about making a living teaching martial arts. They are still learning.

He'd been studying for eight years. I think that that is long enough to have formulated a down-the-road teaching goal. And as of yet, he has not shared the reason that having the grade by twenty was necessary to that goal, or if that was even the goal in question.

In any case, ildan/shodan is not an instructor's grade, so it is not as if he would be an instructor at the age of twenty with a black belt. This thread is so many pages that the art he practices has been lost in the shuffle, but generally senior students take on some level of teacher assistant duties in the high colored belts. Seniors are expected to work with their juniors, in essence acting as teacher's assistants. You don't usually see junior instructors until second or third dan (though there are exceptions), and you don't usually see instructors until fourth dan or later (again, there are exceptions).

And of course he's still learning. So hopefully are you and I. Leanring never stops. If it does, then that is an indicator that that something is wrong.

 

[ballen0351]

He'd been studying for eight years. I think that that is long enough to have formulated a down-the-road teaching goal. And as of yet, he has not shared the reason that having the grade by twenty was necessary to that goal, or if that was even the goal in question.

In any case, ildan/shodan is not an instructor's grade, so it is not as if he would be an instructor at the age of twenty with a black belt. This thread is so many pages that the art he practices has been lost in the shuffle, but generally senior students take on some level of teacher assistant duties in the high colored belts. Seniors are expected to work with their juniors, in essence acting as teacher's assistants. You don't usually see junior instructors until second or third dan (though there are exceptions), and you don't usually see instructors until fourth dan or later (again, there are exceptions).

And of course he's still learning. So hopefully are you and I. Leanring never stops. If it does, then that is an indicator that that something is wrong.

Except he said he wanted black belt by 20 so he could start earning a living teaching.

 

[ballen0351]

You are misunderstanding the point.

I didn't misunderstand anything I just don't agree. I understand your point but think your wrong.

Of course it's a hobby. When I train in Military Saber & Singlestick, it's for fun and because I think it makes my knife-work better (which is, also, mostly a hobby), not because I expect to get in a duel with Cavalry Sabers.

Right and as a hobby he shouldnt be acting like is life has forever been altered because his hobby is not going as planned

The point being missed is that writing, "if you just want a black belt, I can mail you three" is completely off the mark and, frankly, a bit condescending. The goal of a "black belt" is not about the piece of fabric, it's about what the awarding of said fabric recognizes about the holder.

It says NOTHING about the holder. Ive seen really poor examples of Karate walking around with a black belt. I dont assume anything about you because of the belt you wear. I will learn all I need to form my opinion by watching you train or teach. So yes if your entire world revolves around a belt color then just go buy one.

It's a tangible recognition of skill from a respected authority (the instructor). It would be the same if, instead of belts, the instructor awarded lapel pins, shoulder or breast patches, different colored boxing gloves, or nothing more than an actual certificate. It's the instructor, institution, or authorizing body standing up and saying to the world, "We certify that Joe Blow here has XYZ skills."

Who is we? There is no world wide Governing body issuing black belts. Even with in the same style there are different Organizations to issue belts and a belt in one group sometimes means nothing to another group.

And, no, sometimes not worrying about rank and continuing to train WON'T make rank come on it's own. It didn't in the PhotonGuy's case.

we only have one side of the story as to why he wasn't promoted. BUT yes generally you keep your head down and keep training and learning and the rank will come.

What did come (we assume) is more skill. Yes, if you're dedicated, moderately talented, and have good instructors then, generally, skill will naturally grow. But that's no guarantee of recognition of said skill.

OK where could you train, be dedicated, talented, and have good instructors and not get recognition?

Now, I know that some people will say, "who cares if anyone recognizes my skill?, as long as I've got it, that's what's important." That sounds nice and all, but it ignores actual human psychology. The human brain doesn't work that way. Humans, particularly males, crave recognition. It's often an important element of furthering the "ultimate goal" of attaining more skill. Human Resource departments and good Managers the world over have figured this out. They've found that giving out "Recognition of Achievement" awards, or even just a simple pat on the back and and 'attaboy', is a great way to help motivate employees.

Attaboy is totally different then saying that because you didnt met some goal within a hobby your life has been permanently altered in a Neg. way? Thats an unhealthy obsession. To make claims that as soon as I get a belt my training will go to a while new level shows someone is putting too much emphasis on an object. Thats to say I was less of a human when my belt as brown but no that its black BOOM Im great.

Yes, it's true that some people "buy the belt" just so that they can boast or have people believe they have skill which they do not. But, to be honest, they're actually a minority. Most people in my experience actually want to learn the skills but they need to have it recognized too. It's just a basic human need.

Guess Im not normal I've never been a belt chaser or look for recognition from others. My life does not revolve around others feelings towards me unless your part of my family. I didnt even go to my last awards dinner because I dont care about that. I dont wear any of my ribbons and medals on my uniform because they mean nothing they are colorful strips of cloth. I train because I like to train not because Im looking for recognition.

 

[lklawson]

Who is we?

Whatever is the governing body for his art. There are like 5 major Judo governing bodies in the U.S., there's, what?, 7 TKD bodies, every Aikido style has it's on head or hombu, etc. That's who "we" would be.

There is no world wide Governing body issuing black belts.

There doesn't need to be one in order to have some "authority" in that style recognizing belts.

Even with in the same style there are different Organizations to issue belts and a belt in one group sometimes means nothing to another group.

So?

we only have one side of the story as to why he wasn't promoted.

Yes, I know.

OK where could you train, be dedicated, talented, and have good instructors and not get recognition?

Beats me, it's not my thesis that belts automatically follow.

Attaboy is totally different then saying that because you didnt met some goal within a hobby your life has been permanently altered in a Neg. way? Thats an unhealthy obsession. To make claims that as soon as I get a belt my training will go to a while new level shows someone is putting too much emphasis on an object. Thats to say I was less of a human when my belt as brown but no that its black BOOM Im great.

I think everyone in this thread has already agreed with this.

Guess Im not normal I've never been a belt chaser or look for recognition from others.

Unless you have diagnosable sociopathic tendencies, then you definitely need "recognition" on some level in some way. Maybe it's not "chasing belts." I understand that because I'm not a belt chaser either. I've had "ambush tests" where I was, quite literally, told "you've been putting it off too long, you're testing today." So I get that. But you find your recognition some other way. Maybe you achieve at work. Maybe you're an amateur sports competitor. Maybe you get a kick out of having standing and a good reputation on internet forums. Whatever, it doesn't really matter. But the fact is that every person has some drive for recognition and respect. "Respect" (which is another form or "recognition") is so important that Maslow put it in his famous "Hierarchy of Needs." Psychology Today had a neat article on it some time back. Might be able to google it.

My life does not revolve around others feelings towards me unless your part of my family.

Again, I think you're misunderstanding some key psychological concepts here.

 

[ballen0351]

.

Unless you have diagnosable sociopathic tendencies, then you definitely need "recognition" on some level in some way. Maybe it's not "chasing belts." I understand that because I'm not a belt chaser either. I've had "ambush tests" where I was, quite literally, told "you've been putting it off too long, you're testing today." So I get that. But you find your recognition some other way. Maybe you achieve at work. Maybe you're an amateur sports competitor. Maybe you get a kick out of having standing and a good reputation on internet forums. Whatever, it doesn't really matter. But the fact is that every person has some drive for recognition and respect. "Respect" (which is another form or "recognition") is so important that Maslow put it in his famous "Hierarchy of Needs." Psychology Today had a neat article on it some time back. Might be able to google it.

Again, I think you're misunderstanding some key psychological concepts here.

Again Im not misunderstanding anything. Just because I don't agree with you doesn't mean I dont understand you I just dont need someone telling me how great I am to make me feel better. Maybe Im secure in myself and dont need the approval of others.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Except he said he wanted black belt by 20 so he could start earning a living teaching.

He said that it was a hobby to some and that others wish to make a career out of it. I did not get the impression that he thought he'd be out teaching as soon as he had it.

Not to mention that he still hasn't explained the importance of having the belt by twenty to the life goal in question.

 

[lklawson]

Again Im not misunderstanding anything. Just because I don't agree with you doesn't mean I dont understand you I just dont need someone telling me how great I am to make me feel better. Maybe Im secure in myself and dont need the approval of others.

<shrug> Go argue the point with Maslow and the head shrinks at Psychology Today.

And, again, the fact that you wrote, "I just dont need someone telling me how great I am to make me feel better" shows that either you didn't read what I wrote or that you misunderstood it because I specifically and deliberately didn't write that.

 

[ballen0351]

<shrug> Go argue the point with Maslow and the head shrinks at Psychology Today.

And, again, the fact that you wrote, "I just dont need someone telling me how great I am to make me feel better" shows that either you didn't read what I wrote or that you misunderstood it because I specifically and deliberately didn't write that.

<Shurg> I don't need to argue with anyone I don't care what they think remember

 

[ballen0351]

He said that it was a hobby to some and that others wish to make a career out of it. I did not get the impression that he thought he'd be out teaching as soon as he had it.

Not to mention that he still hasn't explained the importance of having the belt by twenty to the life goal in question.

That's not how I read it but ok