Ata?

[The Kai]

One of our instructors used to teach PPCT and baton techniques to the local police department. With a police baton, or stick, it is called "aggressive blocking". The attacker swings at you with a stick or knife and instead of meeting stick against stick (or weapon), you are striking the arm or hand coming at you that is holding the stick. If you hit your partner's arm or hand with you stick while they are swinging at you, then your timing and strike IS correct. 

Unfortunately, wooden weapons (especially our old ones) could easily crack arms, knees, or skulls if swing with any kind of speed. So as you could imagine, some hands were injured. On occassions our black belts would actually break the wooden sticks just doing the stick counts at full speed. This is why we switched to foam. Sticks were good for stick counts, but when practicing counter and striking, you needed foam to avoid serious injury when actually striking at your partner with the intent of really hitting him/her.

Just a thought most systems of Escrima the "blocking' motion is again correctly done to the hands of your opponent. Since, Escrima'ists spend a lot of time working the sticks they have substituted hitting to the stick with the understanding of the correct target. This allows you to practice with the sticks more, with greater control. Also allow you to deal with a strong attack, after all who is gonna swing that hard on you knowing thier knuckles will bebashed?
Not realistic, do you practice your one steps or self defense by driving your fists through your partners head?

BTW How much for the offical ATA black belt uniform??
Todd

 

[Mark70Z]

Shu:

Thanks for the response. Do me a favor and just "be aware" of these type things going on within the organization and try to change them if you can. Like I mentioned before, it sounds like you guys do things totally different within your school. If you were located in Jacksonville, I'd go to your school...

I believe the last ATA gi we purchased was $110.00. Just so you know, it was a nice gi, and I was totally satisfied with the type of uniform. It had the ATA logo's on the back w/my son's name on it, all embroyed (Is that spelled right?!?) We had to sow on the rest of the patches. I don't know if this is the price currently charged, but like I said the gi's are nice.

Also, just so you know the 2K was for the BB "Club". This is when you get to an orange belt there is a contract that you go until you become a BB. This was not the charge for testing.

 

[BrandiJo]

I need to ask Mr Giles about some of this, back when i was in ATA i dont remember it being this bad, cus there is no way my paretns could aford that i should see him when im back home for xmas break ...but i guess things do change and iv been outta ata for about 10 years ( took it when i was about 8ish)

 

[MichiganTKD]

When I was a color belt many years ago, my parents grumbled enough about the monthly tuition fee, which was not bad considering what other schools charged.
If I had presented them with a black belt contract my Instructor wanted me to sign for $2K, I would have been looking a new school. No way would they have paid that. Anyway, how can you charge students $2K or more for a black belt in 2-3 years when they don't know what they'll be doing in 2-3 years? This is one reason why I don't like contracts. How can you have a student commit to class for a lengthy period of time when he/she doesn't know what will happen in that time? How do you know they won't a. get a job transfer b. get sick or injured c. lose interest?

 

[Galvatron]

I don't know how the ATA schools around here stay in business. Here in Jacksonville, "Senior Chief Master Guru" (or whatever he's calling himself) Bill Clark runs no less than 15 schools. Some of his schools are within 5 miles of each other!
I recently had a friend of mine go into one of his local schools to get prices for me...she took her 5 year old daughter in with her. The prices she was qouted came out to just under $200.00 per month with the monthly (yes I said monthly) test fees. When she told the instructor that she needed to consult her husband first, he wanted her to call from the school so he could talk to him also, when she said no he then wanted her to give him a post-dated check to hold! That's the kind of stuff you expect at a used car lot, not a Martial Arts school.
I've met (and taught) more than a few former ATA students, and they all tell me basically the same story: Long contracts, high prices, little substance.
Perhaps it's different in other parts of the country, I couldn't say. All I know that Bill Clark gives Taekwondo a very bad name around these parts.

 

[Mark70Z]

We were personally told when my son was an orange belt that we either had to sign up for the BB Club or he could no longer train. At the time I didn't know anything about the MA schools, so me and my wife after some discussion with the karate teacher, decided to sign him up.

1. They told us at the time it would take a minimum of four years to get his BB. Of course we found out later a person could get it in 1 1/2 - 2 years. The contract did not expire, so we thought this was not too bad of price for 4 years worth of training. They said even if it took longer, we would not have to pay anymore, it was up till he received his BB.

2. They have stipulations in the contract for moving. Just so you know, they have schools "all over" the U.S. so I'm sure they would say you can go to one of them.

3. Get sick or injured. I'm sure there are outs for these on the contracts w/ doctors verification. Shu I'm sure could give you more on this.

4. Lose interest. Your out of luck. You pay anyway...no way out. There were a few who tried at our school, and no luck getting out of paying. There are numerous kids that signed up for the BB Club who came a few times and never came back.

Just so you know, they did give you a choice on the contract to pay monthly, quarterly, etc.

 

[Mark70Z]

Galvatron:

I'm from Jax. FL also. Just so you know I believe Bill Clark has "at least" 20 schools within the Florida area. This does not include other states. I'm not saying that's a bad thing, just wanted you to know.

Also, after your friends daughter received her orange belt, then they would want you to sign up for the BB Club, or the Master Club, or the Instructor Club, or whatever else Club they have now (at least that's how it was early this year). Of couse the testing fees would still be there. Also, all the other "extras" you would "have to" get...

Your are right again, long contracts, high prices, and little substance.

Do you teach in Jax.? Would be interesting to know where if you do.

 

[Galvatron]

Geez How many "Clubs" do they have??? How much do these various clubs cost? I saw the BB Club already, but I wonder about the other ones...

I presently teach at the YMCA in the Mandarin area, I also teach two people privately.

 

[Mark70Z]

They have several different ones. I believe the Master Club allows you to go to some specialized classes and you get a gold stripe (or whatever color it is now) through the middle of your belt, and the Instructor Club, I guess you learn to teach Taekwondo. Who knows what else they have now. I know you had to be a BB to be in the Instructor Club when my son started, now I believe it can be almost any rank. I think the standards are getting less and less so they can get more money out of people quicker. Typically they charge you first for the BB Club, which goes to 1st Degree, then they try to talk you into the Master Club, which I think goes to 2nd Degree Recommended, then the Leadership/Instructor Club, which typically goes to 3rd Degree Recommended (at least that was our personal experience). If I recall correctly I think each one was around 2K.

The scenario you gave earlier about your friend going in to check on prices doesn't suprise me a bit. I've seen it throughout the time we were going to the ATA school. I live just south of Mandarin, so I know where the YMCA is on San Jose. We went to the school just behind the Outback Steak House on San Jose. We were involved with the ATA for 6 years, so if you have any questions, I think we have enough real, on hand, personal experience with the ATA. I appears that if these FL school were run like the ATA ones that Shu goes to we'd still be there.

What style do you teach at the YMCA?

 

[Galvatron]

Officially we teach Tang Soo Do at the Y, but in reality it's more of a blend of TSD and WTF-Taekwondo.
How far along did your son get?

 

[Mark70Z]

Is the Tang Soo Do affiliated with the Pak's in Mandarin? I hear they have a really nice new location. There was a boy in our Church that went to Pak's until he graduated from High School last year. I think he was a 2nd Dan. He's attending UF now. Great guy!

He went to first Degree BB. It took him four years to achieve. The only reason it took him this period of time is that we wouldn't let him test everytime they wanted him to. They wanted him to test about every two mouths, and he didn't really know the material. Typically what happened was they went over the material for the testing the week before the testing, instead of learning all the material throughout the previous months. Each test throughout his time there he passed, but "several" times he didn't know all the material and in my view should of never passed these tests. After his first degree he only tested once (I think they called it a mid term). They kept pushing him to test, but I told them that he would not be testing unless they taught him "all" the required material, and they didn't. The ATA did have some pretty good curriculum, if they would actually follow it. Maybe some of the schools do, but this one and the ones I've been to haven't.

 

[Galvatron]

Your complaints are much the same as I've heard from nearly everyone I've encountered who was a former ATA student, or parent of one. Good outline, but little adherence. Saying that the almighty dollar is the primary focus there, is like saying automobiles like gasoline.

As for our affiliation, yes we are branched off of the Mandarin Pak's school. We operate completely autonomous of the Mandarin school, but our students go there to test (We have a testing Nov. 20).

Is your son currently taking from anywhere? Feel free to come watch our class (I can give you the schedule if you're interested). The only catch is that the Y stipulates that in order to join the program you also have to join the YMCA (stinks, but we haven't had any success changing that rule).

 

[Shu2jack]

Just a thought most systems of Escrima the "blocking' motion is again correctly done to the hands of your opponent. Since, Escrima'ists spend a lot of time working the sticks they have substituted hitting to the stick with the understanding of the correct target. This allows you to practice with the sticks more, with greater control. Also allow you to deal with a strong attack, after all who is gonna swing that hard on you knowing thier knuckles will bebashed?
Not realistic, do you practice your one steps or self defense by driving your fists through your partners head?

I agree that a lot of people who practice with the sticks hit the stick with the understanding of the correct target. We do that a lot as well, but swinging at someone's hands and swinging at someone's stick with the understanding that you are hitting someone's hands are two different things. You have to slightly adjust your body position, angle, timing, etc. I believe one should train with both methods, they each have their benifits.

When using wooden sticks we didn't strike purposely strike at the hand. However, if you start learning to use weapons a student will eventually get hurt. Natural part of training. Getting hit by a solid wooden weapon directly on the knuckles can cause serious injury to the hand though, so we started using foam.

Like I said, I personally still train with wood. I do striking drills, forms, etc. with the wooden weapons. I also like using the foam weapons. They actually allow me to hit my partner's hand's, head, body, legs, etc. with a decent amount of force while my partner is trying to hit me. It stings and can leave some marks, but I believe it is a great learning tool. Just training the way of just striking the stick is not realistic to me.

Also, just so you know the 2K was for the BB "Club". This is when you get to an orange belt there is a contract that you go until you become a BB. This was not the charge for testing.

2K!? My mom spent under $800 for my training for a year. Testings, uniform, training, tournaments, and weapons combined. That is about what I pay a year right now currently. I do realize some of the things going on in the organization and I do know we have senior masters in the organization fighting it the best they can.

 

[Mark70Z]

Shu:

Just remember....when we signed up our son for the BB Club they stated that it would take approximately four years to get his BB; which he was an orange belt at the time (this was 1997). Like I said prior, we found out kids were getting them in a 1 1/2 to 2 years after we already signed up. So, this 2k, in our view at the time, was not bad for four years worth of training. If you break down the cost it was only $500 per year. Of course we didn't know about all the other different expenses, plus all the other "clubs" they had.

To me, as long as you and others in the ATA are aware of some of these things going on, hopefully it will continue to improve if enough individuals in the organization stand up for what is right. I know there are some really good people within the organization, so hopefully in years to come it will continue to improve.

 

[Mark70Z]

Galvatron:

My son is currently training in Orange Park at an individuals home/garage. They probably have around ten or so students, so it's really small. He seems to enjoy the class. He is leaning an Okinawan style Shorin Ryu. Our son is 13 years old.

I would like to get your schedule to at least check it out. I guess it's understandable if you are training at the Y they would also want you to join the Y. I guess that may deter some people from coming, but I don't think it's too much of a negative thing (it may be positive?!?)

Isn't Tang Soo Do simular to Taekwondo? Are outside people allowed to attend the testings, or is it closed?

 

[Miles]

Galvatron:


Isn't Tang Soo Do simular to Taekwondo? Are outside people allowed to attend the testings, or is it closed?

TSD and TKD are similar in that they are both Korean arts, but TSD is much more like karate than is TKD. In TKD schools, the sparring is continuous and full-contact whereas in TSD the sparring is generally point-style.

As far as spectators at testings, that is generally up to the instructor. Some instructors use the "test" as more of a demonstration of what the student has accomplished. Others ignore the day to day training and base their evaluation on a single event.

Now, to get back on topic, I have limited knowledge of the ATA, but the instructor that I know of in Traverse City, MI-Mr. Pline, is a fine gentleman and a true martial artist.

Miles

 

[Galvatron]

TSD and TKD are similar in that they are both Korean arts, but TSD is much more like karate than is TKD. In TKD schools, the sparring is continuous and full-contact whereas in TSD the sparring is generally point-style.

We spar full contact, using WTF-TKD style safety equipment.

Mark70Z: That sounds like a good situation for your son. If he's happy there and is learning something useful, then you definitely want to stick with that.
Our testings are open to the public, and in fact we encourage people to come watch (puts more pressure on the students).
We are actually having Black Belt testing this saturday (Nov 6th) at our main school located on Blanding Blvd, just outside of the Riverside area of town.
Colored Belt testing will be on the 20th.
The address is 1840 Blanding Blvd, if you are interested in watching.

 

[Mark70Z]

Galvatron: We have plans already for this weekend, so we will not be able to attend the BB testing. Are there times when they have BB testing at the Mandarin facility? If so, I'd like to attend one of those. I believe from experience that you can tell a lot about the organization by viewing their BB's, or Brown belts that are testing.

Thanks for the advice on his current location which he is training. Yes, he seems to be learning and he seems to be interested/content. I guess we only have a few minor issues with the dojo. One is the location...it's in Orange Park and we live in Switzerland, just below Mandarin. It does take some time and organization to get there. The other is since it's so small, and they have a few beginners; when the beginners come to class the focus becomes the beginners. Therefore, you can't really work on the more advanced kata, sparring, etc. In the larger schools they are able to separate a bit more. I know there are "several" advantages with small schools also, which we appreciate. All in all we are very happy with it. We understand that no school is going to be perfect...

Miles: The ATA has "a lot" of really good instructors. In north Florida they recruit a lot from different countries. The ones they go for are some of the best MAists in their country. I guess the problem, in my view, is that the focus is way too much on the money and not on the individual. I "know" this is not in every case, but it is that way in the ATA schools which I have been associated. Also, in some of the other posts on this site and sites elsewhere which I have been reading, it seems the same way (all about the money) in some of those schools also.

 

[Miles]

We spar full contact, using WTF-TKD style safety equipment.
....

Galvatron, that is very interesting, and much different than the TSD schools with which I am familiar.

Does your school use WTF rules?

Miles

 

[Galvatron]

Galvatron, that is very interesting, and much different than the TSD schools with which I am familiar.

Does your school use WTF rules?

Miles

I get the impression we're different also...
It's always been that way though in our system, as long as I've been here (17 years), and as long as my dad has been here (22 years).
Yeah, we basically follow WTF rules for sparring, except that in normal classes we don't tend to do head contact. In senior belt and black belt classes we usually allow it though.

Mark70Z: At the Y we have seperate classes for beginners, intermediates and advanced.
My colored belt classes are Tues and Thurs from 5:15-6:15, and Saturday Morning from 9:45-10:45 and we have an advanced class from 9:00-9:45 on Saturday mornings.
We also have classes later in the evening, which are taught by a different instructor (a 6th dan, who's been doing this since I was barely out of diapers), which run from 8:00-8:50 on tues and thurs. These classes tend to be smaller (3-4 people usually) and are great, in that there is a lot more one-on-one attention given.
Feel free to stop by any time.
As for testing, all of our BB tests are at our main school. You have to make the trek to the main school and test in front of the grandmaster for black belts.
Mandarin (and the Y) will be having Colored Belt testing (White up to Red) on the 20th. I think that they are having it in the gym at some church on loretto road. I'll find out which one specifically, if you want to come watch.