I was a purple belt for 8 months, a brown belt for 2 years, and I hold my current rank of 2nd degree for about 4 years now. I have never been pushed to test, nor have my classmates. My instructor has been forcing me to wait to test for 3rd. While I agree that testing more often yields more money, I think money was only one of the benifits to making the change. After all, it is a buisness and our G.M. couldn't achieve his goal of helping others on a large scale if he didn't have the money to accomplish it. You get what you pay for.
Testings are not every month, but testing on a more regular basis and making more ranks on the road to black belt is very benifical, besides the fact that our late Grand Master wanted 9 color belts to match the 9 degrees of black belt. 3 and 9 are important numbers, so it seems fitting to have 9 color belts instead of 5.
1.) It spreads out all the techs. over all the belts. That way for 2+ months you are focusing heavily on one set of techniques, which the next rank will base it's techniques off of.
2.) It suits our culture more. We need to mark progress and our culture tends to have trobule waiting and doing things for the long term. By having more frequent testings a student can chart their progress, give them a short term goal, and force them to constantly train because the next possbility to advance is coming up and they need to get to a certain level in terms of skill in order to test.
3.) Because of the increased number of belts, each level can focus on a certain aspect of forms and training.
White- The preparation and execution of techinques.
Orange- Add timing to the preparation and execution of techniques
Yellow- Add combinations and flow to the techniques.
Camo & Green- Add spin and reverse kicks into the equation
Purple & Purple- Add flow and rythem into the equation
Brown & Red- Putting everything together.
Each rank focuses on something new, or a new way of doing the same thing. Our black belts means we have mastered the basics and our rank system, forms, one-steps, sparring rules (as well as unoffcial rules), and material at each rank reflect that.
There are a few ATA schools I am ashamed of, but I would apprciate that people would learn an organization's system, ideology, and method before judging. I have been with the ATA for 10 years, I run a small club, I HAVE used what the ATA has taught me to defend myself, I know others who have only ATA training who have defended themselves (some of them earning their black belt with in 2 1/2 years.), and I could go on, but my post is already too long.
I apologize, but just like we are tired of people harassing TKD without really knowing what TKD is about or capable of, my organization and myself take a lot of heat from people who complain that our art takes a lot of heat.
Shu2jack said:
Depends. Color belts tend to have a high attrition rate, so hitting them early and often doesn't train them any better. Just gives them more belts.
Yess... But pretty much any form of TKD will introduce new material each gup rank regardless of whether or not a new belt's involved.
Only problem is I made the comment that I did based on what ATA members I know have told me over the past few years. It's not reflective of everyone in the org, but it seems like the focus is on money and expansion first and other things, like teaching certifications in stickfighting etc after a weekend seminar hint that the fighting's a distant second.
MichiganTKD
Master Black Belt
I don't really have a problem with 9 degrees of color belt, and the system does make sense. I would have a problem with, say, 20 degrees of color belt. I'm sure some Instructors use it, and it is just a way to string students along and keep them paying monthly fees. Aside from the fact, too many color belt ranks makes black belt look unattainable. There is a problem with too many and too few. I think 6-9 is about right.
At the end of the day, yes, all it is is more belts. However I think students learn better with frequent testings. As a college student, and after talking to many other college students over the years, a good majority would prefer 10 littler tests compared to 4 big ones. This is because 4 big tests covers a lot of material you have to study and focus on. With 10 smaller, more frequent, tests you are breaking everything down further and focusing on smaller chunks to learn. It is easier to assimilate and understand. I think the same thing applies to the martial arts.
While I do not agree with everything the ATA is doing, or how they go about doing it, I do see what they are trying to do and why they are doing what they are doing. People, and members, are not seeing what they programs are or what they are trying to accomplish.
Lets take the stick fighting certification for example. How do you introduce new material into the regular curriculum of a 250,000+ member organization? Getting all the instructors together for a long peroid of time to learn the weapon is impossible. So you have clinics to teach the instructors the basics at first and over the years expand on what they know. School owners are not allowed to teach anything unless they are certified to do so, so the the clinics "certify" the instructors to teach the basics they learned to their students. Through joint testings, our closed-tournaments, and over the years as the new material becomes second-nature our members should gain proficiency in the weapon.
So these weekend "certifications" are not teaching anyone to be deadly with a weapon in a just a few days. It is our HQ's way of teaching our instructors standardized material and giving them permission to teach it to the students so that to flows through the organization. After a decade or so our instructors and students (who are becoming instructors) are profiecent with the weapon. That is the theory anyway. But you just can't all of sudden make all of our 10,000+ instructors profiecent in a weapon and add new curriculum on the spot.
How does learning say, groundfighting in a two day seminar qualify you to teach anything useful? I could gain just as much useful and effective knowledge by reading a book on the subject. Who here is willing to consider me a qualified submission wrestling instructor simply based on the fact that I've read a book or two on the subject? You're not? How about if I tell you I read it at least twice a year?
Seems like the instructor and the student loses out in that bargin. One's paying for a certification that really confers no ability beyond being able to present their students a mofidied syallabus, the other's trying to apply techniques that may or may not be effective with no expert to guide them along.
It also begs the question why is it necessary to introduce all these plug-ins? It's really not. It's just another way to make the product seem more attractive to the passerbys regardless of the actual value. It's not a question of creating a complete martial artist, it's a question of how many bullet points can be added to the brochures. Pure marketing. Just like the Black Belt Club, the Leadership club etc.
Seems like the instructor and the student loses out in that bargin. One's paying for a certification that really confers no ability beyond being able to present their students a mofidied syallabus, the other's trying to apply techniques that may or may not be effective with no expert to guide them along.
It also begs the question why is it necessary to introduce all these plug-ins? It's really not. It's just another way to make the product seem more attractive to the passerbys regardless of the actual value. It's not a question of creating a complete martial artist, it's a question of how many bullet points can be added to the brochures. Pure marketing. Just like the Black Belt Club, the Leadership club etc.
I am sorry you feel that way.
It seems you are missing the point of the clinics and what they actually are. It is a method of slowly introducing a new aspect of training into a already set curriculum in a large, international organization. It is not meant to make instructors qualified groundfighting instructors. This is what it is supposed to do;
Instructor A goes to a ground fighting clinic.
Instructor A learns the basic positions, escapes, and methods of tapping an opponent out. Instructor A gets permissions to show this material to his students.
Instructor A shows this material to his Jr. instructors and students. They take this new material and work on it by wrestling each other with little rules. (No eye gouging, groin pulling, biting, etc.)
Instructor A and students become familar and comfortable with ground fighting because they learn what is working and not working by using it against a fully resisting partner who is trying to tap you out.
Instructor A goes to other clinics or goes outside that ATA to learn more about groundfighting to add to his experience.
Instructor B (who was a color belt when instructor A started introducing this material) has now become an instructor. Being familar with ground fighting from coming up the ranks with it he is now able to instructor others in this field because of his personal experience with it.
Sorry for the long post and I am not being sarcasitc. This is how I learned what I know in ground fighting. It works, at least for me, because I have had the privilage of wrestling a 2 time state high school wrestling champ and a University of Michigan wrestler on a wrestling scholarship. No, they are not combat ground fighters, but they are good at what they do on the ground and I fared pretty decently. It tells me the ATA's program is working dispite the fact that I am a 1st generation product.
This is also how I learned the single stick. My instructor showed my TKD buddy and myself the stick basics. We then took our wooden sticks and had us swing at each other. One person had to block, counter, or evade the incoming strike and counter attack or disarm, which the other person and to counter and respond. This is how we became familar with the stick.
I only say this because this is how the clinic program works. Instructors are shown and given permission to teach their Jrs. the basics. Then instructors and jrs. alike practice together in ALIVE training to learn what works, what doesn't work, how to modify techinques so it works for the individual, etc. Most people think we are saying instructors are certified once they attend the clinics. No, we are giving the instructors the basics to start from to start to become familar with a given area of fighting with their students. Once these students "grow up" they will be our generation that are certified weapon/ground fighting/what ever instructors in 10 years.
If you buy it or not, that is your choice. I don't fully buy it myself, but I haven't come up with a better solution for the ATA myself and the training works for me.
It seems you are missing the point of the clinics and what they actually are. It is a method of slowly introducing a new aspect of training into a already set curriculum in a large, international organization. It is not meant to make instructors qualified groundfighting instructors. This is what it is supposed to do;
Instructor A goes to a ground fighting clinic.
Instructor A learns the basic positions, escapes, and methods of tapping an opponent out. Instructor A gets permissions to show this material to his students.
Instructor A shows this material to his Jr. instructors and students. They take this new material and work on it by wrestling each other with little rules. (No eye gouging, groin pulling, biting, etc.)
Instructor A and students become familar and comfortable with ground fighting because they learn what is working and not working by using it against a fully resisting partner who is trying to tap you out.
Instructor A goes to other clinics or goes outside that ATA to learn more about groundfighting to add to his experience.
Instructor B (who was a color belt when instructor A started introducing this material) has now become an instructor. Being familar with ground fighting from coming up the ranks with it he is now able to instructor others in this field because of his personal experience with it.
Sorry for the long post and I am not being sarcasitc. This is how I learned what I know in ground fighting. It works, at least for me, because I have had the privilage of wrestling a 2 time state high school wrestling champ and a University of Michigan wrestler on a wrestling scholarship. No, they are not combat ground fighters, but they are good at what they do on the ground and I fared pretty decently. It tells me the ATA's program is working dispite the fact that I am a 1st generation product.
This is also how I learned the single stick. My instructor showed my TKD buddy and myself the stick basics. We then took our wooden sticks and had us swing at each other. One person had to block, counter, or evade the incoming strike and counter attack or disarm, which the other person and to counter and respond. This is how we became familar with the stick.
I only say this because this is how the clinic program works. Instructors are shown and given permission to teach their Jrs. the basics. Then instructors and jrs. alike practice together in ALIVE training to learn what works, what doesn't work, how to modify techinques so it works for the individual, etc. Most people think we are saying instructors are certified once they attend the clinics. No, we are giving the instructors the basics to start from to start to become familar with a given area of fighting with their students. Once these students "grow up" they will be our generation that are certified weapon/ground fighting/what ever instructors in 10 years.
If you buy it or not, that is your choice. I don't fully buy it myself, but I haven't come up with a better solution for the ATA myself and the training works for me.
Hwoarang_tkd26
Orange Belt
Wow!, lol
I feel extremely strange now, I am WTF and my particular school also uses the Camo belt (we already have a green belt, so we cant just replace it with that)
I feel extremely strange now, I am WTF and my particular school also uses the Camo belt (we already have a green belt, so we cant just replace it with that)
OP
Mark70Z
Guest
- Thread Starter
- #29
Shu: Maybe you can help me. I think there are "numerous" reasons why individuals dog the ATA. It appears from your posts you are an exception to the rule within the ATA. Maybe you could inform the GM of the perception and the "real" problems with the organization.
First I'd like to say I admired late GM Lee. I met him a few time and he seemed like a really nice guy. Also, from "everything" I read about him he was a wonderful person and martial artist. Also, the current GM Lee seems to be along the same lines. With that being said...maybe you could resond or at least make a brief comment on the following:
1. Black Belts at the age of 7. Not first degree but 2nd degree!
2. In Florida the schools I have been to have kids with black belts who can't punch or kick correctly.
3. You are required to purchase their sparring gear. It's all made by Macho, but you can only wear it with the ATA logo. Also, they required the red gear first, then once you receive you BB you have to purchase the black.
4. BB earning their belts in 1 1/2 - 2 years.
5. Have to purchase all these weapons (stick, bo, kamas, nunchaus) and use them for "very" brief periods of time. You "never" learn to really use the weapon.
6. No explaination of the meaning to the forms, i.e. bunkai
7. Contract for everything, BBC, Master Club, Leadership Team, etc.
8. Group testing where "everyone" passes.
9. Sooo many belts with sooo many stripes..all costing money. The price continues to rise.
10. To me...all about the money not the individual.
These are just a few of the problems. Just like it was said...just a tip of the iceberg.
First I'd like to say I admired late GM Lee. I met him a few time and he seemed like a really nice guy. Also, from "everything" I read about him he was a wonderful person and martial artist. Also, the current GM Lee seems to be along the same lines. With that being said...maybe you could resond or at least make a brief comment on the following:
1. Black Belts at the age of 7. Not first degree but 2nd degree!
2. In Florida the schools I have been to have kids with black belts who can't punch or kick correctly.
3. You are required to purchase their sparring gear. It's all made by Macho, but you can only wear it with the ATA logo. Also, they required the red gear first, then once you receive you BB you have to purchase the black.
4. BB earning their belts in 1 1/2 - 2 years.
5. Have to purchase all these weapons (stick, bo, kamas, nunchaus) and use them for "very" brief periods of time. You "never" learn to really use the weapon.
6. No explaination of the meaning to the forms, i.e. bunkai
7. Contract for everything, BBC, Master Club, Leadership Team, etc.
8. Group testing where "everyone" passes.
9. Sooo many belts with sooo many stripes..all costing money. The price continues to rise.
10. To me...all about the money not the individual.
These are just a few of the problems. Just like it was said...just a tip of the iceberg.
I'll answer the questions the best I can.
1. I agree to an extent. One has to ask himself what a black belt is. I have always viewed it as someone who has mastered the basics of the system. I have met many younger 2nd degrees who have better technique than me. Can I kick their butt? Of course, size counts. Can they beat the snot out of kids their own age if they had to? No doubt in my mind they are capable, at least for the Jr. Black belts in my instructor's school.
Many people agree that a black belt means having more than just physical qualities. One has to have discipline, respect, etc. Can a child have these things? Yes. Having a room fill of 20 children holding perfectly still and not talking, giggling, or anything until you give a command is impressive, especially for our culture. Can children fully understand what honor, respect, etc. is? I doubt it until they gain more world experience. Personally I would put the cap at 2nd degree for children since black belt is still young in terms of belts.
2. Flordia would be Senior Master Clark's territory. I am only a second degree and I will keep my opinions to myself. If you have questions I would suggest talking to him about it.
3. I was a black belt for 5 years and continued to wear the red gear until recently. As for being required to have ATA gear....1) Money thing 2) Uniformity. You wouldn't let your students wear a mix-mash of different uniforms in class would you? Then why would you let them do the same for sparring gear? Being para-military uniformity is a big thing.
4. How long do you think it should take to master the basics? I am attending the police academy and it only lasts 15 weeks. My ATA buddy went into the military and got through basic training a lot sooner than it took him to earn is black belt and he wasn't impressed with the army training. I think if the training is realistic and practical 1 1/2 years is enough time to gain a solid base.
5. I was never forced to buy all the weapons. They are required to test once a black belt, but I don't HAVE to test. I learned to use the stick. My friend and I grabbed our wooden ones and started swinging. Lots of bruises, some blood, and a good learning experence. Students have to practice outside of class to if they hope to master anything. That being said, it is the instructor's job to provide them with the basics and help them along with their training.
6. Can't comment on that one. I was taught the meaning of the forms. I have also gained much insight into the forms from teaching them. The meanings are on our form sheets that are, or were in some schools, passed out for free at each rank.
7. When I opened up my club my instructor told me to sign my students up in a contract. The reason is if the parents decide not to pay, I have no legal document to back up my claim that he owes me. Also, it lets me know that this person will pay me X amount of dollars each month (which helps me since the school's income changes month to month and I need to know the bare min. I will have to pay bills and the like.) and that persons knows that I will be there. Now, if a person can't pay I am not going to turn him into a credit agency. One of my parents had their 5 kids enrolled. The mother home-schooled the kids and the father lost his job. They have no money to pay me even if I did turn them in and even then, why would I? They have 5 kids, they have more important things to worry about than TKD. The contract didn't help me, but it is something that is there to help protect me and the customer.
8. Bad school then. Two testings ago we had 7 people testing for a black belt rank. 5 failed. Last testing 4 people tested. 2 failed. My instructor failed his own son twice when he tested for his 1st degree. I can't vouch for the other schools, but there are good ones out there. Unfortunately large cities are perfect places for instructors looking to get in it just for the money and it is the large schools with the money have have a bigger voice.
9. Only 9 color belts and 9 ranks of black. Doesn't seem unreasonable to me. If you are referring to the stripes I am thinking of, they don't cost money. As for increasing prices, what hasn't increased in price in the U.S. market?
10. To me: Saved my life and I have seen it do the same for others. I see instructors to do it for the love of teaching itself and for the kids. The system we have is a good one not only for student development, but for an organization as a whole, and creating a system so that an instructor is able to dedicate his entire life to TKD. The system can be, and is, abused like any other system.
As for informing our GM, he knows and the other seniors know. My instructor told me to buy a blank heavy weight uniform when I asked permission to attend an open tournament because he didn't want me to take any uncalled for heat from others. He wanted me to be judged as a martial artist and not what people think of martial artists from an organization. The problem is people will have their opinions and perceptions and rarely will they change. You just have to do what is best for you. It is easier to judge and critize and judge with out taking time to truly understand someone or something. I could pick on other organizations, heck I could pick on your guy's individual schools, but I don't because I don't know you, what you do, or why you do it.
1. I agree to an extent. One has to ask himself what a black belt is. I have always viewed it as someone who has mastered the basics of the system. I have met many younger 2nd degrees who have better technique than me. Can I kick their butt? Of course, size counts. Can they beat the snot out of kids their own age if they had to? No doubt in my mind they are capable, at least for the Jr. Black belts in my instructor's school.
Many people agree that a black belt means having more than just physical qualities. One has to have discipline, respect, etc. Can a child have these things? Yes. Having a room fill of 20 children holding perfectly still and not talking, giggling, or anything until you give a command is impressive, especially for our culture. Can children fully understand what honor, respect, etc. is? I doubt it until they gain more world experience. Personally I would put the cap at 2nd degree for children since black belt is still young in terms of belts.
2. Flordia would be Senior Master Clark's territory. I am only a second degree and I will keep my opinions to myself. If you have questions I would suggest talking to him about it.
3. I was a black belt for 5 years and continued to wear the red gear until recently. As for being required to have ATA gear....1) Money thing 2) Uniformity. You wouldn't let your students wear a mix-mash of different uniforms in class would you? Then why would you let them do the same for sparring gear? Being para-military uniformity is a big thing.
4. How long do you think it should take to master the basics? I am attending the police academy and it only lasts 15 weeks. My ATA buddy went into the military and got through basic training a lot sooner than it took him to earn is black belt and he wasn't impressed with the army training. I think if the training is realistic and practical 1 1/2 years is enough time to gain a solid base.
5. I was never forced to buy all the weapons. They are required to test once a black belt, but I don't HAVE to test. I learned to use the stick. My friend and I grabbed our wooden ones and started swinging. Lots of bruises, some blood, and a good learning experence. Students have to practice outside of class to if they hope to master anything. That being said, it is the instructor's job to provide them with the basics and help them along with their training.
6. Can't comment on that one. I was taught the meaning of the forms. I have also gained much insight into the forms from teaching them. The meanings are on our form sheets that are, or were in some schools, passed out for free at each rank.
7. When I opened up my club my instructor told me to sign my students up in a contract. The reason is if the parents decide not to pay, I have no legal document to back up my claim that he owes me. Also, it lets me know that this person will pay me X amount of dollars each month (which helps me since the school's income changes month to month and I need to know the bare min. I will have to pay bills and the like.) and that persons knows that I will be there. Now, if a person can't pay I am not going to turn him into a credit agency. One of my parents had their 5 kids enrolled. The mother home-schooled the kids and the father lost his job. They have no money to pay me even if I did turn them in and even then, why would I? They have 5 kids, they have more important things to worry about than TKD. The contract didn't help me, but it is something that is there to help protect me and the customer.
8. Bad school then. Two testings ago we had 7 people testing for a black belt rank. 5 failed. Last testing 4 people tested. 2 failed. My instructor failed his own son twice when he tested for his 1st degree. I can't vouch for the other schools, but there are good ones out there. Unfortunately large cities are perfect places for instructors looking to get in it just for the money and it is the large schools with the money have have a bigger voice.
9. Only 9 color belts and 9 ranks of black. Doesn't seem unreasonable to me. If you are referring to the stripes I am thinking of, they don't cost money. As for increasing prices, what hasn't increased in price in the U.S. market?
10. To me: Saved my life and I have seen it do the same for others. I see instructors to do it for the love of teaching itself and for the kids. The system we have is a good one not only for student development, but for an organization as a whole, and creating a system so that an instructor is able to dedicate his entire life to TKD. The system can be, and is, abused like any other system.
As for informing our GM, he knows and the other seniors know. My instructor told me to buy a blank heavy weight uniform when I asked permission to attend an open tournament because he didn't want me to take any uncalled for heat from others. He wanted me to be judged as a martial artist and not what people think of martial artists from an organization. The problem is people will have their opinions and perceptions and rarely will they change. You just have to do what is best for you. It is easier to judge and critize and judge with out taking time to truly understand someone or something. I could pick on other organizations, heck I could pick on your guy's individual schools, but I don't because I don't know you, what you do, or why you do it.
let me just say that i think you are representing the ATA very well and have helped changed my perspective a bit...i was never negative towards the ATA, but i have seen some bad schools, from more than just the ATA...and it's good to see these kind's of posts...taekwondo in general has gotten a bit of a bad rap...Shu2jack said:
i just wanted to commend you on keeping your cool...a good portion of this thread has been critical of the ATA...and i'm not so sure I could be as respectful as you have been if someone were criticizing my school...
Shu2jack said:
The only problem there is that an instructor who does the bare minimum won't be presenting anything useful to their classes. The instructors that go above and beyond, who go outside the org to train are introducing a nonstandard array of techniques for their students to study (which doesn't introduce the techniques to the ATA as a whole regardless), and the instructors are PAYING the ATA for the privlidge of going outside the org to learn this new stuff properly. You have the equivalent of a white belt going back to teach ATA folks how to ground fight.
Still smacks of including a product for marketing purposes over selling the actual product.
Does this instructor then also have to pay the ATA before he can include grappling on his syllabus? If so, that's just milking the cow.
OP
Mark70Z
Guest
- Thread Starter
- #34
Shu:
Sounds good. Let me know when you return and we can discuss further. Thanks so much for responding, but of course I have questions concerning your response. I'll get with you on them when you return (have a great vacation!).
Sounds good. Let me know when you return and we can discuss further. Thanks so much for responding, but of course I have questions concerning your response. I'll get with you on them when you return (have a great vacation!).
It was a short week, but I am back and feeling a bit refreshed. Any who, I am ready for another round of questions Mark.
bignick@ Thank you for your kind words. I am glad I could changes your perspective a little. I just wish I was more articulate so I could better respond to this thread.
Marginal@
I often have to tell beginners new to ground fighting that if they are mounted on someone they are SUPPOSED to drop their body weight on the opponent so he doesn't escape, or that for the Guard you need to wrap your legs ABOVE their waist or else you lose control, or if you want to roll someone over you need to trap the leg and arm on one side or else they can prevent you from flipping them. This is what the clinics teach. The basic basics. I sometimes forget that not everyone knows how to make a proper fist in order to punch because I have been in the MA for so long it is natural. Same thing with ground fighting. Yes, instructors can go outside the organization, and it is a good thing, but the ATA is trying to set up it's own program so eventually we don't have to. It is impossible for 5 Senior Masters and Masters who have been ground fighting a long time to teach everyone in this organization.
Now, if I ever become big enough in my region to host a tournament, then either one of my students or myself needs to be certified in a weapon in order to hold a competition for that weapon in my tournament. The host needs to be certified in the material under the ATA in order to have the material in a closed ATA-sanctioned tournament.
bignick@ Thank you for your kind words. I am glad I could changes your perspective a little. I just wish I was more articulate so I could better respond to this thread.
Marginal@
You are assuming everyone knows something about ground fighting, even without formal training. Myself, and MANY students, did not or do not know what the "In the Guard" position is, how to tap someone out, or many other things a lot of people (or wrestlers) take for granted.
I often have to tell beginners new to ground fighting that if they are mounted on someone they are SUPPOSED to drop their body weight on the opponent so he doesn't escape, or that for the Guard you need to wrap your legs ABOVE their waist or else you lose control, or if you want to roll someone over you need to trap the leg and arm on one side or else they can prevent you from flipping them. This is what the clinics teach. The basic basics. I sometimes forget that not everyone knows how to make a proper fist in order to punch because I have been in the MA for so long it is natural. Same thing with ground fighting. Yes, instructors can go outside the organization, and it is a good thing, but the ATA is trying to set up it's own program so eventually we don't have to. It is impossible for 5 Senior Masters and Masters who have been ground fighting a long time to teach everyone in this organization.
No, I teach my students at my club weapons, ground fighting, etc. and I am not certified in anything. My instructor is, he taught me, and I have been practicing the material for years.
Now, if I ever become big enough in my region to host a tournament, then either one of my students or myself needs to be certified in a weapon in order to hold a competition for that weapon in my tournament. The host needs to be certified in the material under the ATA in order to have the material in a closed ATA-sanctioned tournament.
Shu2jack said:
I was more thinking, "a little knowledge can be a dangerous thing". Think of it this way. Take a group of people who know nothing about TKD, show them how to properly do the various kicks, blocks, and punches etc over one weekend. Now send them out to teach TKD to wrestlers.
Doesn't that strip your gears?
OP
Mark70Z
Guest
- Thread Starter
- #37
Shu:
Hope you had a great vacation! As I said earlier you schools seems like the exception to the rule in ATA. Maybe we can go point by point... Just so you know I'd like to see the ATA grow, but I'd like to see it as an organization with integrity and honor.
1. Second Degree Black Belts - There are 2nd Degree Black Belts in the ATA organization at 7 years of age. To me this is crazy. It's my view that 7 is too young for a first degree. I too have seen many of the young people with really good technique, but not the ones this young. There are numerous BB in the ATA schools in Jax. that can't punch or kick correctly.
Personal expierence - My son received his BB at age 10. They tried to rush him through the testings. He did not know a single form all the way through until he was a Blue Belt (the only reason he learned this was he wanted to start to compete in tournaments). Also, they discouraged him from going to any tournament other than the closed ATA tourneys. In "several" testings he did not know what to do, didn't know all the forms or one steps and still passed with flying colors. It was sad, but at 10 and a BB he didn't even know how to punch correctly.
Maybe I equate karate wrong. I kind think of it "like" a church organization. If the organization your church belongs to believes different doctrines than the local church you attend, why is that church still in the organization.
Hope you had a great vacation! As I said earlier you schools seems like the exception to the rule in ATA. Maybe we can go point by point... Just so you know I'd like to see the ATA grow, but I'd like to see it as an organization with integrity and honor.
1. Second Degree Black Belts - There are 2nd Degree Black Belts in the ATA organization at 7 years of age. To me this is crazy. It's my view that 7 is too young for a first degree. I too have seen many of the young people with really good technique, but not the ones this young. There are numerous BB in the ATA schools in Jax. that can't punch or kick correctly.
Personal expierence - My son received his BB at age 10. They tried to rush him through the testings. He did not know a single form all the way through until he was a Blue Belt (the only reason he learned this was he wanted to start to compete in tournaments). Also, they discouraged him from going to any tournament other than the closed ATA tourneys. In "several" testings he did not know what to do, didn't know all the forms or one steps and still passed with flying colors. It was sad, but at 10 and a BB he didn't even know how to punch correctly.
Maybe I equate karate wrong. I kind think of it "like" a church organization. If the organization your church belongs to believes different doctrines than the local church you attend, why is that church still in the organization.
OP
Mark70Z
Guest
- Thread Starter
- #39
Kai:
Just so you know, I did speak up and told the instructors what I felt (many times). Just remember, the ATA organization has "contracts" that you can't get out of (several people at his school tried, to no avail). When I signed up for the BB Club, or Masters Club (can't remember which) he was an orange belt, I didn't know they would just "give" them belts and test them all the time and pass them each time. The contract period went until he attained a BB. I paid the money, so he was going until the contract ended. Most of the people who signed up once they realized it was about the money they quit coming, but still had to pay the contract price.
Just so you know, I did speak up and told the instructors what I felt (many times). Just remember, the ATA organization has "contracts" that you can't get out of (several people at his school tried, to no avail). When I signed up for the BB Club, or Masters Club (can't remember which) he was an orange belt, I didn't know they would just "give" them belts and test them all the time and pass them each time. The contract period went until he attained a BB. I paid the money, so he was going until the contract ended. Most of the people who signed up once they realized it was about the money they quit coming, but still had to pay the contract price.
What do you mean exactly by, "A little knowledge can be a dangerous thing"?
How does what strip my gears?
One can not learn a few moves from a TKD instructor, then go off and teach TKD. Those basic moves are found in every other "hard" style that teaches fighting in a standing range. (Karate, etc.), so it wouldn't really be TKD they are teaching. TKD itself is a system values, stances, strikes, blocks, movements, philosophy, etc. that takes years to fully learn and even longer to understand and figure out how it all fits together. This is because not everything taught can be directly applied to self-defense because it serves a different purpose. Because of this, TKD requires a knowledgeable and quality instructor who knows the system in order to teach it.
So do I have a problem with someone learning a few moves, then go on and show others calling it TKD (Or karate, or Kung fu, or what ever)? Yes, because they are not teaching TKD, they are teaching striking techinques.
Would I have a problem with an instructor who is qualified and knowledgeable in his art (wrestling) coming to me and having me show him some basic strikes for fighting in a standing range so he can show some of his students?
No. If this instructor is willing to spend 25 hours learning how to safely throw a punch, a hook, a elbow strike, a knee strike, a palm heel, a front kick, and a side kick then I have no problem with it. Because this instructor is already qualified and skilled in his range of fighting and he is looking for techniques in a different range so he is able to defend himself if caught out of his element. Then he can go back and practice these against a heavy bag or in training with his students.
The same applies to what the ATA is doing. Even if it is a 2 day course, I want an instructor to teach me the terminology, how to properly set myself in various positions, and how to perform a few techniques. This way I can go back and wrestle other guys, have a clue about what I am doing, figure what works or how to make something work, and have a base to start from. Do I have a seasoned ground fighter to teach me? No, but I can train "alive" with others, practice what we have been shown, try different things, and get comfortable with ground fighting so that if we ever have to wrestle someone in self-defense are are not flapping around on the ground with no clue.
