Ata?

[Shu2jack]

1. Second Degree Black Belts - There are 2nd Degree Black Belts in the ATA organization at 7 years of age. To me this is crazy. It's my view that 7 is too young for a first degree. I too have seen many of the young people with really good technique, but not the ones this young. There are numerous BB in the ATA schools in Jax. that can't punch or kick correctly.

Personal expierence - My son received his BB at age 10. They tried to rush him through the testings. He did not know a single form all the way through until he was a Blue Belt (the only reason he learned this was he wanted to start to compete in tournaments). Also, they discouraged him from going to any tournament other than the closed ATA tourneys. In "several" testings he did not know what to do, didn't know all the forms or one steps and still passed with flying colors. It was sad, but at 10 and a BB he didn't even know how to punch correctly.

I believe the ATA's website has the contact information for our HQ. I recommend that you contact them and inform them of what is going on. Since I have not witnessed it I can not, and will not, accuse other instructors of wrong doing without witnessing it. You have witnessed it though.

My instructor's school has never had a 7 year old 2nd degree. Because of how we set up the program, 9 or 10 is the youngest possible and those two kids could beat the snot out of kids their age. These kids know how to kick and punch and they know all of the forms. They had to know all of the forms to pass their black belt test.

We have this tiny 8 year old little girl who has tested for her black belt 4 times. We have failed her 4 times. We have a set standard and we will not lower that standard. Both of her older brothers have already passed, but she keeps trying and I know one day she will make an excellent black belt and a sucessful person because of her perserverance and her unwillingness to accept defeat. I don't think of failing a student as a negitive thing. I think of it as a test of character after the belt test and that little girl is passing where I have seen a lot of people fail in life.

Sorry that I am not really answering your questioning. My instructor's area (his school and his instructor's schools) are growing with integrity and honor. I just can't speak for others, but I do know that there are many other schools out there like this.

 

[Mark70Z]

Shu:

Thanks for the response. It definitely sounds like your school is run totally different than the ATA schools here in Jax., or in the Florida area in general. Also, I'm sure your aware that there are 2nd Degree BB who are 7 years of age, not just in the Jax. area, but in ATA organization around the U.S. It sounds like your program within your school is set up different than the ATA program, since you will not allow a 2nd Degree BB until 9 or 10 (which in my opinion is too young also).

We were going to keep my son in the ATA, but it just didn't work out. I'll kinda give you a summary of what happened. We had a contract up to a 2nd Degree Recommended. About a year later his instructor asked us to sign another contract (Jr. Instructor, Asst. Instructor...something like that since he wanted my son to learn to teach) and stated it would take him to third degree recommended. He said he would give us a great deal and this is the last contract we would have to sign for a long time since he couldn't test for third degree until 15 or 16 (he was around 9 at that time). So we asked our son if this is what he wanted to do and he said yes. About three years later his instructor (who was a different instructor, his other instuctor moved back to Argentina) had a meeting with us and told us they were going through the contracts and ours is expired. We told him we signed a contract till third degree BB. He said he would get with his boss and get back with us. The next class he said our contract is expired. I stated that nowhere on the contract is there an expiration date. He stated that it was a three year contract, and was told it is expired, so it's expired. I wrote to Bill Clark explaining in detail the problem, with no response.

 

[The Kai]

In this area (midwest) the experiences with Ata is mostly bad. Young 2nd or 3rd degree Black Belts, no foundation what so ever. It has become so obvious even the general public now scoffs at the whole Black Belt Rank! Don't expect to much from Bill Clark

Todd

 

[Marginal]

What do you mean exactly by, "A little knowledge can be a dangerous thing"?

When one learns something and presumes competence in their technique, they think they can then apply it in stress situations with no problem. Should they ever hit a situation where they actually test that knowledge, it has a very good chance of coming up lacking. That's just dangerous.

How does what strip my gears?

The idea of someone teaching TKD after a weekend seminar.

One can not learn a few moves from a TKD instructor, then go off and teach TKD. Those basic moves are found in every other "hard" style that teaches fighting in a standing range. (Karate, etc.), so it wouldn't really be TKD they are teaching. TKD itself is a system values, stances, strikes, blocks, movements, philosophy, etc.

Evidently, it does strip your gears.

TKD requires a knowledgeable and quality instructor who knows the system in order to teach it.

But stick fighting, grappling etc does not... Gotcha.

So do I have a problem with someone learning a few moves, then go on and show others calling it TKD (Or karate, or Kung fu, or what ever)? Yes, because they are not teaching TKD, they are teaching striking techinques.

Well, TKD is a striking system. As long as that instructor's practicing "alive", and perhaps recites a few creedos before each class, surely they're producing the same end result.

Would I have a problem with an instructor who is qualified and knowledgeable in his art (wrestling) coming to me and having me show him some basic strikes for fighting in a standing range so he can show some of his students?

Would you feel comfortable with them thinking that they'd be able to become proficient with TKD techniques after one weekend class?

Then he can go back and practice these against a heavy bag or in training with his students.

It's inadequate.

 

[Shu2jack]

When one learns something and presumes competence in their technique, they think they can then apply it in stress situations with no problem. Should they ever hit a situation where they actually test that knowledge, it has a very good chance of coming up lacking. That's just dangerous.

I agree. Presuming competence in their technique and thinking they can apply it at anytime easily is dangerous.

Evidently, it does strip your gears.

If you mean, "make me upset" when you say "strip my gears". Then, no. I was just saying that it simply isn't TKD, or Karate, or what ever they are teaching because the systems are more than just striking.

But stick fighting, grappling etc does not... Gotcha.

I said that wrong and that quote is taken a little out of context. While I think sticking fighting, grappling, TKD, knife fighting, etc. requires an instructor, I believe a set system like TKD requires an instructor more so than wrestling. Which is not really a positive.

TKD has one-steps, forms, board breaking, etc. That kind of stuff is not directly applicable to self-defense. Those things serve a different purpose and requires an instructor who knows how the pieces fit together and what they are for.

With grappling, or boxing, or stick fighting you can "get by" with just boxing or grappling with a partner full speed and become decent in that range of fighting. That is because everything you do and are shown can be directly applied against someone. Having a coach to watch you and see what you are doing wrong or can improve on helps greatly and is recommended.

That said, I know a lot of people who wrestle pretty good and I know a lot of people I wouldn't want to fight standing up even though they don't have formal training. They had friends that always beat up on each other, a "rougher" life, or just practice with others. They learned by simply doing it. Could they be better with formal training? Yes, but they know how to apply what they do know effectively, if not efficently.

Well, TKD is a striking system. As long as that instructor's practicing "alive", and perhaps recites a few creedos before each class, surely they're producing the same end result.

No, not really.

Would you feel comfortable with them thinking that they'd be able to become proficient with TKD techniques after one weekend class?

I would feel comfortable with them knowing they have a base to start from and expand upon.

It's inadequate.

It is? Most students train in class 2-3 times a week, which is about 2-3 hours a week with an instructor. Most students probably spend time outside of class training. Let's assume 1 hour a day. That is 7 hours a week training without the guidence of an expert. Now multiply that by 5 years. A 5 year student will spend a LOT more time practicing what he knows alone or with a partner WITHOUT his qualified instructor.

Personally for me, I learned the most when I studied the forms, or practiced techniques alone at my own pace, or sparred fellow students after class using our own rules, or weight lifted, or worked on a heavy bag, and other little things like that. My instructor helped show me my weakness and what I need to focus on to improve so I can go back home and work on that. He showed me knew techniques to practice and train with, but in the end a majority of my training was done against another person or alone in my basement. I suspect many other MA are like this.

So if this is the case, what is wrong with someone experienced in grappling showing someone the basics so that they can "go home" and practice their techniques. Instead of going back to that clinic and showing that instructor where they are at, you go to your partner and wrestle him full speed to find out what is working and what is not. Have a 3rd person watching you to see what you need to work on.

 

[Shu2jack]

I hope that all made sense. I get from vacation, and I have to work 12 hour shifts along with 5 college classes. So obviously cohearancy is a problem at times.

Anyway Marginal, we just keep going back and forth. I'll just say that the previous post was my final comments on the subject. We'll just have to agree to disagree or something like that.

 

[Shu2jack]

Mark@

Like I said, I have my own opinions about the schools in Flordia. I am sorry that I can't really help you with that situation.

Unless you have any objections, I believe you have other questions, though if there is anything else on this subject you would like to discuss I would be more than happy to.

 

[Mark70Z]

Shu:

Maybe most of these issues are problems within the Florida schools. I read in other posts some of these problems seem to exist in other states, but hopefully it's just minimal elsewhere.

Let me ask you a question on the gear. It was required in his school to purchase "all" the gear, including weapons, from the ATA. Is this typical? After some time I stated to purchase items from the internet and paying a lot less for the items. I could tell they didn't like this, but never said anything directly to me. I just didn't feel like paying almost twice as much for these items.

 

[The Kai]

It is a money making organization period, you maight find isolated bright spots of non greed here and there but the org is set up to make a ton o money from new students

Todd

 

[Mark70Z]

Kai:

Seems that way, but I was hoping it was just isolated in Florida, and a few isolated instances elsewhere around the U.S. Sounds like Shu's Dojahng may be an exception to the rule....

 

[bcorner]

I’m a BB Recommended in the ATA. I am testing for 1st degree in December. I have been doing Taekwando 5 days a week for the most part. I also participate in Krav Maga (www.kravmaga.com) which is supported by Senior Master Clark in Jacksonville FL. I do Krav Maga 2-3 days a week. I have been doing martial arts not stop for over two years. And I love it. When I was a kid I also did judo.

Someone complained about most black belts passing the mid terms and exams. I don’t know how other clubs do it but our Instructor will not let us take the tests unless he knows we will pass.

In fact we just had a 'practice' test this past Saturday. Our official mid term is in a couple of weeks. We will be tested by our Instructor (4th degree Mr. Infantino) plus two guest 5th degree's. We get tested on our Kata (form), basic knowledge, board breaking, and test sparring (no contact).

Since joining the ATA I have gone from 280-290 to 185 lbs. I am also LBK (left below knee) amputee.

I also practice along with my wife and two children. I have made sure that we all are going to graduate to first degree at the same time.

I have never let my injury slow me down. In fact most people never even know I have a fake leg. Doing Taekwando has really proven to me that I can do anything any able bodied person can. It takes a bit more effort on the left spin kicks and many of the jumps. But to date I have been able to overcome all obstacles. I have even been able to compete against others at national competitions and place in weapons two years straight! According to others I have been an inspiration to others. Even able bodied. I mean... If I can do reverse jump spin crescent kicks with a fake leg and be 41 years of age... then anybody can do this discipline.

I know that I have digressed in this thread. I hope that I have not offended anyone. (Thread etiquette and all.)

 

[The Kai]

I guess the first question I have is why if you are a active martial artist do you need to take self defenses classes? First and foremost martial arts are sold as self confidence courses, via physical confidence (being able to defend yourself). So you study a martial art that has nothing to do with fighting?

The second thing is how can you all be "graduating" (I assume you mean testing for black) at the same time? Any Martial Art is a individual journey, with different rates of learning. To set up your graduation date is a little 'contrived'
Just a few questions
Please don't get me wrong I am happy you found a sport to make you happy
Todd

 

[Mark70Z]

I basically have the save questions as Kai. How does one ensure that you will graduate at the same time? Each individual works at their own pace; if you are truly testing it would be at different times, and in the unlikely instance it happens to fall at the same time one may pass and the other fail. Unless it goes with what I was saying, is that "all" pass. I don't see how an instuctor can, as you put it "he knows we will pass." I can see an instuctor going over the material and making sure your efficient at it, but not knowing you will pass. To me it's not a test if you already basically pass before you even take a test.

I do want to congratulate you on the weight loss and also not letting your injury slow you down. Do you compete in the ATA tournaments? If so, is it in the Special Ability or the group competition? Also, do you compete in open tournaments?

 

[Shu2jack]

Let me ask you a question on the gear. It was required in his school to purchase "all" the gear, including weapons, from the ATA. Is this typical? After some time I stated to purchase items from the internet and paying a lot less for the items. I could tell they didn't like this, but never said anything directly to me. I just didn't feel like paying almost twice as much for these items.

I don't know if it is typical throughout the ATA. Originally the Black Belt/Master club program was to focus mainly on weapons when our Protech and regular curriculum was seperate. At that time wooden weapons were the training tool, so you could pick them up anywhere. Due to spectator safety and that students where messing up their knuckles pretty badly when training with each other, we switched to foam in class and while competeing.

Now Protech is a part of the regular curriculum and competition, so I guess a lot of instructors include weapons as part of the package deal for joining the Black Belt/Master Club since weapons is what the main training is anyway, no sense in joining if you don't have a weapon to train with.

As for having to buy weapons through the ATA, all weapons and gear must be ATA gear at tournaments and testings. Our instructors get in trobule when our students do not have the proper gear, so we don't like it generally when students buy their gear online. I tell my students that I don't care what type of gear and weapons they use in class to train. I still use wooden weapons personally. I just won't let them compete or test without the "proper" gear just like I won't let my students wear the "proper" uniform for training in my club.

It is a money making organization period, you maight find isolated bright spots of non greed here and there but the org is set up to make a ton o money from new students

Yes, the organization is set up so instructors can earn a decent living teaching TKD. Some instructors take it too far. Outside of that, what is wrong with earning a living from teaching TKD?

bcorner@ Thank you for sharing your story. I know of a lot of people the ATA has helped and whose lives the ATA has changed for the better. It has changed my life. M

 

[terryl965]

Well I have listen and read and I know is an inside/ outside perspective: Back in the 90's I join a ATA school to start back up formal training within side of a week the instructor brought out a booklet listing all the pro's of the ATA which was fine but, in every prositive there has to be some negatives he said no not here in the ATA and then the contracts,equipment and all the little things added up the a whole lot of money.The point is when I started to look for a place to train again I explained to the instructor that I had no attention in joining a Black Belt club already had my Belt then I told him no contract, he was fine with all of that then within a couple of weeks started to hit me with everything. The fact in the matter is I knew more then him and at that time I believed I was looking for maturity not pocket gauging! Now I know some pretty nice guys that run ATA schools and they are - well great instructors and make alot of money doing the same thing I do teach TKD I personally think ATA will cater more to the upper middle class of student where they can make there money, but a few instructors can put out some high quality gifted athletes, not just the Mc Dojo types. BOTTOM LINE GOOD AND BAD IN EVERY ASPECT OF MARTIAL ART WEATHER TKD OR KARATE. Have a great day and GOD BLESS AMERICA

 

[The Kai]

weapons were the training tool, so you could pick them up anywhere. Due to spectator safety and that students where messing up their knuckles pretty badly when training with each other, we switched to foam in class and while competeing.

Why are you abshing your hands? Cannot you not correct your technique instead of substitting a toy in its place?

Now Protech is a part of the regular curriculum and competition, so I guess a lot of instructors include weapons as part of the package deal for joining the Black Belt/Master Club since weapons is what the main training is anyway, no sense in joining if you don't have a weapon to train with.

How amny programs are running at the school and how much do they cost?

.

I just won't let them compete or test without the "proper" gear just like I won't let my students wear the "proper" uniform for training in my club.

What is a proper uniform? Durability? Color? There is plent of quality Gi's out there why pay more for it?

Yes, the organization is set up so instructors can earn a decent living teaching TKD. Some instructors take it too far. Outside of that, what is wrong with earning a living from teaching TKD?

I don't have a problem with making money off the martial arts it is just how it is done that bothers me

bcorner@ Thank you for sharing your story. I know of a lot of people the ATA has helped and whose lives the ATA has changed for the better. It has changed my life. M[/QUOTE]

 

[Mark70Z]

Shu:

As far as the gear goes I understand trying to be uniform within the organization. I don't really like purchasing red gear and then "making" you purchase black gear just because he became a BB. Also, I don't think it's right to pay almost twice as much for gear/weapons, just because someone stamps ATA on it. I was told that I needed to purchase the foam kamas, he never used them in class, and then they wanted me to buy the metal/wood ones for demo's (I bought them online for over 1/2 the price). I purchased the nunchaku, then had to purchase another set because they changed the type (I guess the older ones had a problem with the plastic coming off the ends). Just a few examples we had when we were going as far as the karate gear.

I really don't have a problem with a karate instructor making money. To me the problem is withholding, or not giving you needed information up front. You pay 2k for the BB Club, and then you have the testing fees, purchase all the "required" weapons (kamas, stick, nunchaku, bo...almost twice as much money for ATA items, and really never learning how to use them properly), gear (sparring gear - twice because you'll need the red then the black, chest protector..also more money with the ATA stamped on the Macho gear), paying for all the special classes they push you to attend (ground fighting, sword, etc.), push you to sign up for a Master Program, then Instructor Program, in house tournaments (which were $35, and gave a $1.00 metal for best BB spirit, etc.), different uniform for demos, they even wanted us to purchase different shirt, pants, and shoes to test in!!! Just of the few things they "never" discuss when they are signing you up.

Look I really don't have a problem with them saying we are a sport karate school, but they don't. We went in thinking our son was going to learn to defend himself, and he didn't learn to defend himself. I think he got some positive things, like excersize, and making friends. I really don't regret putting him in the ATA, but knowing all the things I know now if I had to do it all over again we would take a different path...

 

[The Kai]

2,000 for a Black belt test? Wow! Do you want to buy a bridge too?


Imho everyone one who enters your school should be part of your black belt club, not just those who canm pay and pay and pay.
Weapons, ground fighting, all part of the program. It is called the Martial Arts
for a reason. Sooner or later the Ata and similiar organizations will get in trouble for the wholesale fleecing of the public (Why would you ever need a seperate uniform and gear for a test?) and give the entire industry a bad name. Well at least we can fight our way out (well some of us)
Todd

 

[Shu2jack]

Why are you abshing your hands? Cannot you not correct your technique instead of substitting a toy in its place?

One of our instructors used to teach PPCT and baton techniques to the local police department. With a police baton, or stick, it is called "aggressive blocking". The attacker swings at you with a stick or knife and instead of meeting stick against stick (or weapon), you are striking the arm or hand coming at you that is holding the stick. If you hit your partner's arm or hand with you stick while they are swinging at you, then your timing and strike IS correct.

Unfortunately, wooden weapons (especially our old ones) could easily crack arms, knees, or skulls if swing with any kind of speed. So as you could imagine, some hands were injured. On occassions our black belts would actually break the wooden sticks just doing the stick counts at full speed. This is why we switched to foam. Sticks were good for stick counts, but when practicing counter and striking, you needed foam to avoid serious injury when actually striking at your partner with the intent of really hitting him/her.

How amny programs are running at the school and how much do they cost?

Just the black belt/master club. My instructor charges $50/mo. for regular classes and I charge $40/mo. I don't run the black belt or master club at my dojo as of yet and I am not sure how much it costs at my instructor's school. I was younger when I started, so my parents paid for it and when I got older and became an instructor I wasn't charged for the program anymore.

What is a proper uniform? Durability? Color? There is plent of quality Gi's out there why pay more for it?

A proper uniform is a all white uniform that is either completely blank or has the ATA logo on the back. The top isn't the olympic TKD top, but the "double tie" top. I agree, why pay more. How ever, being a semi-military organization there will be a certain amount of uniformity and the above criteria are the only restrictions I place on uniforms. So my students can buy their uniforms from some where else. However, if you are a black belt I expect the student to have the ATA uniform.

 

[Shu2jack]

Mark, I hate to say it, but you went to a bad school then. Like I said, I was a black belt for 5 years and used red gear. I know how expensive the weapons are. I have 2 wooden sticks, 2 foam sticks, 2 chain nunchucks, and 2 foam nunchucks. I have the wooden sticks and chain nunchucks for personal training and demos, but I was never forced to partake in demos. I bought the foam weapons after the ATA made the switch to foam weapons.

I really don't know what else to say, except to apologize on behalf of the organization. I have never forced a student or parent to sign up for anything and neither has my instructor. If the student wants to do it, that is fine. If not, there is no since in forcing the issue because we would be wasting everyone's time. I mentioned in my previous post that I do not run the black belt/master club. My students want to start learning weapons, but I am renting a building through the local school system and can not get the extra time to start a BB/MC. I have made my students a deal. If they all want to learn a weapon, then they need to get together with each other and all buy weapons. Then I will start instructing on the weapon in class, but I will not force everyone to buy a $25 weapon and start teaching material that not everyone is interested in that is not part of the main curriculum. If a student wants to learn a weapon on their own, then they need to buy it, come to me, and we will spend 20 minutes before or after each class to work on it-free of charge.