Are revolvers dying out?

[PhotonGuy]

Well how about what this guy has to say about revolvers vs semi-autos?

 

[Chrisoro]

Watched it, and still think the Mas Ayoob-article I posted earlier is far more balanced and relevant in regard to this issue. And I think he hit the nail on the head with this statement:

The reason the debate persists is that there are some very solid arguments on either side of the debate. Anyone who thinks the matter is cut and dried for everyone has probably oversimplified the matter and missed a few points.

You may of course listen to whoever you want, but I'm willing to bet that Mas Ayoob has several degrees of more relevant experience and knowledge on the use of handguns in real life situations than random youtubeguy linked to above. I also saw far better argued points in regard to the pros and cons of both revolvers and autoloaders, than what I saw in the video above.

 

[K50Marine]

I love revolvers! I'm a Cop and I carry a Glock 21 as my primary duty weapon. I own three different Smith and Wesson revolvers. I carry a S&W Model "Airweight" .38 with a crimson trace laser sight mounted on it as both an off duty weapon and a back up weapon inside my vest when I am on patrol. I love the simplicity and reliability of revolvers and my Airweight is very easy to conceal when I am out and about wearing a t-shirt and shorts. In the cooler months when I'm wearing heavier clothing, I like to carry a Glock Model 19 9mm as my off duty weapon. Of course the bad part is only having 5 rounds. Revolvers have pretty much been phased out of service by most if not all police departments in the US and Canada. Many state correctional agencies still equip their officers with .38 or .357 magnum revolvers. Correctional Officers (CO) generally only carry firearms when they are assigned to armed posts away from the general population (i.e. watch towers, perimeter vehicles, control rooms, or on outside transportation details to courts and hospitals). CO's generally receive less firearms training than most police officers,therefore training and equipping officers to use a revolver that is issued from a prison armory is generally more cost effective. I believe the California Department of Corrections and Rehabilitation still equips their officers with revolvers. I think their specialists such as correctional investigators, K-9 officers, and SERT Team officers are issued semi-autos. They are one of the largest law enforcement agencies in the nation with over 30,000 peace officers.

 

[Chrisoro]

A few more articles that may or may not contribute to answer the questions OP asked:

CCW Revolver or Autoloader Gun Digest

Unappreciated Advantages of a Self Defense Revolver

The Revolver In the age of the autoloader some say revolvers are obsolete. The Daily Caller

 

[PhotonGuy]

You may of course listen to whoever you want, but I'm willing to bet that Mas Ayoob has several degrees of more relevant experience and knowledge on the use of handguns in real life situations than random youtubeguy linked to above. I also saw far better argued points in regard to the pros and cons of both revolvers and autoloaders, than what I saw in the video above.

I will take anything that Mas Ayoob says over what most other people say in regards to firearms. The guy in the video I posted has good experience as a police officer and soldier but I've read some of Ayoob's books and articles and I must say he knows his stuff better than most people in the shooting world.

 

[Tgace]

Watched it, and still think the Mas Ayoob-article I posted earlier is far more balanced and relevant in regard to this issue. And I think he hit the nail on the head with this statement:


You may of course listen to whoever you want, but I'm willing to bet that Mas Ayoob has several degrees of more relevant experience and knowledge on the use of handguns in real life situations than random youtubeguy linked to above. I also saw far better argued points in regard to the pros and cons of both revolvers and autoloaders, than what I saw in the video above.

What exactly is Ayoobs "experience"? To my knowledge he was a reserve cop who managed to garner himself some noteriety. He writes well...is published and recognized...and makes valid points. But I'm unsure he can make the "been there, done that" argument.

Sent from my Kindle Fire using Tapatalk 2

 

[Chrisoro]

What exactly is Ayoobs "experience"? To my knowledge he was a reserve cop who managed to garner himself some noteriety. He writes well...is published and recognized...and makes valid points. But I'm unsure he can make the "been there, done that" argument.

According to several sources, he has been at least a part time police officer since about 1972, and holds the rank of captain. I don't have much information on what exactly this entails, or what experiences he has had trough this job, but I don't believe police departments give out honorary ranks, so he must have had some relevant experience i believe. Also, considering that he has had extensive and well documented coursing in the field of firearm tactics and training over the years, must be expected to have performed quite a lot of research considering how high his numerous books are regarded, that he has been used as an expert witness on firearms in numerous trails, and that he is also considered an expert instructor by a lot of police departments, considering they has been willing to employ him, I personally at least, wouldn't just disregard anything he says on tactical use of handguns on the basis that he is "just a reserve cop who managed to gain himself some notority."

Note: the following table is presented here as it provides an easy overview over most of Mas Ayoob's claims to credibility, and is not meant, from me atleast, as bashing of Jeff Cooper. The source I have taken this table from is listed below, and includes documentation of all claims within the table. Take it for what it's worth.

To sum up: If so many people who trust their lives on firearms in their job as well as a lot of people within the legal system decides to put their trust in what Ayoob says and teaches, I see no reason as to why I should not, as long as I consider his points valid and well argued.

Sources:

Shooting Instructors So to Speak Jeff Cooper vs. Massad Ayoob - The Truth About Guns

Massad Ayoob - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

About Massad

 

[Tgace]

I think Ayoob is a valid source.

I'm just experienced enough with expert witnesses and what and who PDs bring in for trainers so that I'm less impressed with those points than others may be.

 

[Tgace]

Personally...I'm more interested in what modern gunfighters like Mike Pannone, Larry Vickers and Kyle Lamb have to say.

 

[jks9199]

Well how about what this guy has to say about revolvers vs semi-autos?

Don't want to spend another 3+ minutes on this guy. Maybe you can tell us what he says and if you agree?

 

[jks9199]

According to several sources, he has been at least a part time police officer since about 1972, and holds the rank of captain. I don't have much information on what exactly this entails, or what experiences he has had trough this job, but I don't believe police departments give out honorary ranks, so he must have had some relevant experience i believe. Also, considering that he has had extensive and well documented coursing in the field of firearm tactics and training over the years, must be expected to have performed quite a lot of research considering how high his numerous books are regarded, that he has been used as an expert witness on firearms in numerous trails, and that he is also considered an expert instructor by a lot of police departments, considering they has been willing to employ him, I personally at least, wouldn't just disregard anything he says on tactical use of handguns on the basis that he is "just a reserve cop who managed to gain himself some notority."

OK -- back to "experts." A military dogfighting Ace generally is about 5 kills. Most police officers don't face an actual shooting situation (not counting putting injured critters down, range time, etc) more than once or twice in a career. Even those, like SWAT units, that do pull their guns a lot, and actually point them at folks, seldom actually shoot. And even fewer of of those instances are actually gunfights, like out of a movie, with exchanges and reloads, etc. Most police shootings are inside of 10 yards, and are quick responses to a sudden threat. So, most of the so-called LE experts on shooting are really more experts on NOT shooting (discerning the don't shoot in a shoot/don't shoot), shooting on the range (even tactical scenarios are range time...), or the tactics around them.

I don't know the specifics of Ayoob's experience. He's recognized by many as an expert, but let's be real: there aren't that many cops out there, of any stripe, who really are "experts" in gunfighting because very few cops have more than a couple of actual incidents of shooting someone in their career, and those are seldom really "gunfights" rather than responding to a lethal thread. Not as clear as I want to be with that statement... Let me expand on that in a minute.

But the honorary ranks... Yeah, that happens. More so in sheriff's agencies, but it can happen in a PD. Reserves, part-time rank because of favors of one stripe or another done... It happens. Shaquille O'Neal served as a reserve with the Port of Los Angeles rather than LAPD because LAPD simply wanted to use him for community relations/photo ops... and he wanted to, as much as possible, do "real" work. (Source on that is personal communication from a now retired chief in that area... who was peripherally involved.)

 

[Chrisoro]

As I said above, I don't have the specifics on Ayoob's real life experience with handguns in live situations, or the nature of his PD rank, and unless you do, all of this is speculation and not really relevant. What I do know, is that a lot of knowledgable and well respected people seems to think that his credidentals are legit and that what he says has merit, and I also know that he has ademonstrated way above normal ability to handle firearms in competitions that attempts to mimic real life situations, such as practical shooting and similar forms of competition. His formal competence and education on firearms is also without question and well documented, and his books and articles generally seems well researched, employs good methodology and give very well elaborated conclusions, so while I don't know the degree of actual "firefights" he has experienced (if any), I personally have no problems seeing him as an expert and someone to listen to when he speeks about firearms in practical situations.

 

[Brian King]

I like revolvers because my wife likes revolvers. She has a difficult time racking auto's due to medical issues. I like revolvers as they can (the models we have) be fired right from the pocket and more than once should that be needed. They do not look as threatening should things end up in court. I do not think that they will be dying out anytime soon. Any handgun is a compromise in my opinion.

 

[Dirty Dog]

I like revolvers because my wife likes revolvers.

At least we know who's in charge.

She has a difficult time racking auto's due to medical issues.

That can certainly be a problem. There are work arounds, but like anything else there's no one size fits all answer, and if you can operate the slide, then you can't operate the slide.

I like revolvers as they can (the models we have) be fired right from the pocket and more than once should that be needed.

Um... OK... tell me something. Why would you do this?

They do not look as threatening should things end up in court.

What makes you think they're less threatening?

I do not think that they will be dying out anytime soon. Any handgun is a compromise in my opinion.

They're already being relegated to a niche role, although I don't think they'll ever go completely away.
The simple reality is that the vast majority of people who choose a gun for personal defense or their profession choose a semi-auto. Other than the fairly rare case of a person who simply cannot operate a slide, there are no real good reasons to choose a revolver.
Unless you want that S&W 500 Magnum for your next bear hunt...

 

[jks9199]

They're already being relegated to a niche role, although I don't think they'll ever go completely away.
The simple reality is that the vast majority of people who choose a gun for personal defense or their profession choose a semi-auto. Other than the fairly rare case of a person who simply cannot operate a slide, there are no real good reasons to choose a revolver.
Unless you want that S&W 500 Magnum for your next bear hunt...

They often don't print as badly in concealed carry. There's one reason...

 

[Dirty Dog]

They often don't print as badly in concealed carry. There's one reason...

There are wwaaayyy too many variables to make that claim. I can carry a Glock 26 and have more firepower in a smaller package than most revolvers. And if I'm willing to limit myself to 8 rounds, my Bersa Thunder 380 will print less than pretty much any revolver.
Hell, I can stick that in a wallet holster or one of the "cell phone pouch" holsters on my belt.



Sent from an old fashioned 300 baud acoustic modem by whistling into the handset. Not TapaTalk. Really.

 

[Brian King]

[

At least we know who's in charge.

LOL, yup. AND I am thrilled that my wife found a handgun that she likes, can efficiently operate and can shoot well, and is willing to carry. Out of curiosity what is your wife's carry?

That can certainly be a problem. There are work arounds, but like anything else there's no one size fits all answer, and if you can operate the slide, then you can't operate the slide.

yup

Um... OK... tell me something. Why would you do this?

There are some situations where brandishing is not the wise thing to do, yet, having immediate access to (by having hand on it) to your weapon is the wise and prudent thing. There are other combative situations where you need to immediately access and deploy your weapon, a hand in the jacket pocket beats a hand on your holstered Bersa every time. There are some situations when in very close contact (ground) that yanking out your blaster is not feasible but you still need to get your shot off. In some situations contact shots might be the choice of action. Revolvers rock at these, semi-s, not so much as they can easily go out of battery. A couple of years ago my wife was attacked by two off leash Rotts while walking our Pyr. My wife, all of 5'2, weighed less than any of the combating animals. You are what 250lbs DD? Imagine being attacked by two 250 pound animals while trying to control a third 250 pound animal. My wife was unarmed other than our dog and she suffered a neck injury taking a bad fall. Our dog kept the other two from mauling either. She was all in all very lucky. It will never happen again.


What makes you think they're less threatening?

Common sense. Please name which Rambo episode where he single handedly wiped out the gang of bad guys with his 2" 38? Which modern cop show has the hero cop with a 38 in each shoulder holster wiping out the mafia and drug lords? Which thug, was it 75 cents or lil' wha his name that was holding the other drug lord at bay with his thug gripped 38? Was a Kadafy or Bin Ladin or Mohammad Mohammad who made sure that their might revolver was in each threatening video? Modern culture sees semi's in the hands of renegade vigilantly cops in the movies and on tv, they see them in the hands of the bad guys, and on the side of evil military caricature. On the nightly news if there is a shooting that isn't an assault rifle they put up a graphic of a semi. On the radio, the music that the young folks listen to, what firearm and calibre do the rap about? Seems to me that Semi's are seen as threatening while revolvers are seen as antiquated tools that grandpa had in his dresser drawer. You have served on Juries before right DD? I was on one where one of the charges was a serious assault as the thug knocked the victim about the head with a rock. One of the jurors said" but, it is just a rock" as she voted no. We had the rock brought in and were passing it around the table to view before taking another vote, and I accidentally dropped the rock on the table. Scared the heck out of few of the jurors (including the 'it is just a rock' lady). The next vote was unanimous and the young man was found guilty on that charge as well as several others, including firearms charges. The good thing about juries in that the jurors are our neighbors and folks we work with, the scary thing about juries is that the jurors are our neighbors and coworkers.





They're already being relegated to a niche role, although I don't think they'll ever go completely away.
The simple reality is that the vast majority of people who choose a gun for personal defense or their profession choose a semi-auto. Other than the fairly rare case of a person who simply cannot operate a slide, there are no real good reasons to choose a revolver.

When I feel the need to carry and am limited to a handgun it is usually my Glock. Sometimes, the Sig or Colt Commander, and every now and then the little desert eagle .40, sometimes if I am with my wife it is one of the 38's. The wife choses to carry the 38 and I like the idea of both guns being the same calibre and same operating systems. That you have you mind made up about your semi's is great. Your condensing attitude sucks, but that is often the case in my gun is bigger and badder than your gun discussions. We made our decisions based on factors in our lives. All handguns are a compromise, that is a fact. In our house our handguns will get us to other tools. We have chosen to sacrifice capacity and calibre for what we feel are sound, educated and practical reasons.

Unless you want that S&W 500 Magnum for your next bear hunt...

Ah, yes. Besides capacity and calibre there is also the umm errr... need to compensate with a large inanimate phallic tool to make up for umm...inadequate tool insecurity issues. Semi's fit that role perfectly. Good choice LOL

Regards
Brian King

 

[Tgace]

Personally, the only think revolvers do for me is give me an appreciation for the "art" in a well made machine.

 

[ballen0351]

hammerless snub as a pocket gun, he makes a persuasive argument.

This ......When I worked undercover I wanted to carry a hammerless revolver as a last resort gun. I would be able to fire inside my coat or pocket and not worry about clothing getting caught in the slide. Sadly I wasnt allowed its against our policy we had to carry a semiauto. I dont know if a semiauto slide would get caught in clothing in a pocket when fired because I never tried it and I have however shot a revolver in a pocket and it did fire with no problems. Ill have to try a semiauto one of these days.

 

[Brian King]

I find retention is easier with short snubbies then with weapons with long flat slides.

If a person travels, knowing the operating system on revolvers is handy, very popular still in some places.

Regards
Brian King