Applied Wing Chun is almost karate

[wckf92]

to "strive to get better and better at less and less"

Nice! Love it.

 

[Argus]

I think I peed my shorts with excitement.
Wer'e gonna be ninja rocks stars!!!!

Going to shoot an email to Master Ken, and tell him his Ameridote is old news. He needs black pants and an ugprade in the name.

"Combat Ameri-do-te"


Note to self.. need to make a list of adjectived to slap on a name.

First we start with the translation of Taichi
supreme ultimate fist..
Already has black pants... check.

Tactical Combatives Supreme Ultimate Fist
Realistic training consists of dringing tea. And pushing hands. And Fast forms... not the slow rendition commonly seen.

Needs monkey. . . No.. Combat Monkey kung fu.


Tactical Combatives Supreme Ultimate Fist, Now, with Combat Monkey Boxing.

Includes special patch: "The Master Boss, Sho Nuff"
Free with order. Please select VHS, or DVD when placing your order. First 10 orders recieve limited edition "I'm Stronger than over 9000 Sayains in God Mode" TShirt. Have your credit card ready when placing your order for Tactical Combatives Supreme Ultimate Fist, Now, with Combat Monkey Boxing.

Will Tactical Combative Supreme Ultimate Fist seminars include bullet-proof chi-gong practice?
Plate carriers are cool and all, but I'd like a light-weight option for summer-month operations!

 

[ShotoNoob]

I like what I see at this school... even if it is not orthodox wc.

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This isn't wing chun at all. This is boxing / kickboxing training in the guise of wing chun....
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It's no wonder the debate about the efficacy of TMA, and especially the Roe Rogan whipping boy of kung fu goes on.
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Again, selling a commercial product to student's who have no idea was TMA principles are.
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EDIT: ditto to PiedmontChun....

 

[ShotoNoob]

Jake: I took out most of your post, which dealt with tactical principles. That's legit but on a layer on the overall principles of WC.

Are we talking techniques? If we are talking principles? Then let's use forward intent as an example. I just can't let this one go.

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Posters can put up all the physical demo's of WC they want. WC transcends the physical way more than does the traditional karates... So far not a one has come close to defining the TMA of WC.
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Wing Chun wannabees, good luck with that....

 

[TSDTexan]

Will Tactical Combative Supreme Ultimate Fist seminars include bullet-proof chi-gong practice?
Plate carriers are cool and all, but I'd like a light-weight option for summer-month operations!

Covered under iron shirt training.

 

[wckf92]

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This isn't wing chun at all. This is boxing / kickboxing training in the guise of wing chun....

Noted. But I disagree.

 

[ShotoNoob]

Looks like wing chun people working on using their skills with some pressure. Needs refining but they are working on it which is what we should be doing rather than criticizing.

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Yeah, well once one learns & trains real TMA, then one can criticize, competently.
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Pressure testing emphasis does not produce good TMA of any ilk. Pressure testing is more in line with sport training theory. What produces good TMA is practice to the standards of TMA principles. This is even more imperative with a highly sophisticated martial art like WC.

We do intercept kicks with legs same a same as arms. Forward intent doesn't mean the body is always going forward.

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I would agree with the second sentence. Still, the demo vid begs the question.

"...combat wc." ???

What is that vs wing chun? I say if you aren't doing some training as shown in the video you aren't seriously training your wing chun and your skills will always be lacking.

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This statement about WC is horse crap. This is a big selling, commercial marketing point to guys (& gals) who want to learn they can handle pressure. It doesn't speak to the vast majority of the TMA curriculum and what it does or how it does what it does.
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We added 'pressure' to the equation in my Back fist board break fail video. Fail, fail, fail, fail. Shake it out Danny T. Shake it out. Moreover, we don't see Laszlo fail in his board break video. He's hardly Mr. rough, tough pressure fighter.... Ha Ha. Ha.

 

[TSDTexan]

Jake: I took out most of your post, which dealt with tactical principles. That's legit but on a layer on the overall principles of WC.
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Posters can put up all the physical demo's of WC they want. WC transcends the physical way more than does the traditional karates... So far not a one has come close to defining the TMA of WC.
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Wing Chun wannabees, good luck with that....

9 or so main branches.
All but 1 have a minimum of 6 common forms in their syllabus. It is conceptual, and phisical. Its more sophisticated then the type of karate as personified the export to Japan (what I call Class B), but the older root okinaiwan Te(s) could easily be just as sophisticated.

As they are rooted in the same roots the WC arose from.
The Chunfa/Kenpo arts that birthed WC are in pangainoon, and in the Chinese root of Gojo, and Uechi-ryu.

The sophistication is lost in translation.
The Why of the techniques was not as forthcoming by the Okinaiwan Masters in Japan as was the How.
OMAs still very much concern their students with the Why and the meaning of anything being taught.

It is not acceptable just to mimic perfectly the technique being shown in the OMA dojos.

And I am not alone in that assessment. JESSE rants about in in his Jma/Oma karate article.

Hench the proliferation of techniques, and changing of stances and technical applications.

The principles were absent in Japanese karate.
The main reason Funkoshi didnt want sparing is he would have to explain how it came out of the Katas... that he was re engineering.

The reason freesparing looks different from kata is the karateka has no understanding of how to employ the movement of the kata in a fight.
He must freestyle from techniques selection.

Choki hate the reforms... and taught one kata. And how to actually use it in a street fight or a freekumite.

 

[ShotoNoob]

Noted. But I disagree.

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Well, there's a TKD whole class Including black-belts & 2 Black-uniformed "TKD Master's' who disagree with me too. YOu know, in myBback fist board break fail YT video.
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Shake it out wckf92, shake it out....
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EDIT: Replace "pressure test" with "shake it out," & vice versa....

 

[ShotoNoob]

This is some interesting perspective.

9 or so main branches.
All but 1 have a minimum of 6 common forms in their syllabus. It is conceptual, and phisical. Its more sophisticated then karate as the export to Japan (what I call Class B), but the older root okinaiwan Te(s) could easily be just as sophisticated.

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Okinawan karate can be very sophisticated.... Approach bona fide wing chun;? IMO, never come close.

The Why of the techniques was not as forthcoming by the Okinaiwan Masters in Japan as was the How.

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Agreed. Lead to the 'watering down' of Japanese karateka training & capability. Still, many Japanese karateka have still trained true to TMA principles...

Hench the proliferation of techniques, and changing of stances and technical applications.

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Agreed. Yet the underlying principles are what counts.... No better lesson on this than Five-animal kung fu.

The principles were absent in Japanese karate.

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False. Gichin Funakoshi knows more than you do...

The main reason Funkoshi didnt want sparing is he would have to explain how it came out of the Katas... that he was re engineering.

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No, this training method advocated by Funakoshi reaches back through Okinawan karate history and even much further back to China. Funakoshi did engage in some re-engineering, as did other 20th Century Okinawan karate masters. This purpose has been posted here @ MT and a zillion other places, in books, etc.

The reason freesparing looks different from kata is the karateka has no understanding of how to employ the movement of the kata in a fight.
He must freestyle from techniques selection

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Horse crap by TMA standards. But true of Monkey see, monkey-do pseudo karateka...

Choki hate the reforms... and taught one kata. And how to actually use it in a street fight or a freekumite.

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Not really up on the guy... a legend according to history I've read.
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EDIT: I just visited a TSD dojang {sp?} in my area. The instructor demonstrated to intermediate class, applications of "bunkai" in Pyung Ahn Cho Dan {sp?}. Same idea, they have 10 kata {hyung?} in the black-belt curriculum (I think), versus one.

 

[wckf92]

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Well, there's a TKD whole class Including black-belts & 2 Black-uniformed "TKD Master's' who disagree with me too. YOu know, in myBback fist board break fail YT video.
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Shake it out wckf92, shake it out....
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EDIT: Replace "pressure test" with "shake it out," & vice versa....

I've no idea what you are trying to say shotonoob.(?). I think you obviously have issues with that applied wing chun video. Are you trying to say that Duncan Leung doesn't know or practice wing chun?

 

[ShotoNoob]

Here's YOur Typical WC Instructor Rogan would love to spar with... Another American Wing Chun Expert on YT who has figured out how all the Chinese Master's screwed up.... AGAIN!

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FINALLY, THIS WC INSTRUCTOR, HAS COME UP WITH "REAL" WC TO BEAT BOXING.... WHAT A RELIEF.... GET THE GUY A PLANE TICKET TO CHINA SO HE CAN STRAIGHTEN THE WC FOREFATHERS OUT, AT LONG LAST...
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1. For the record, there is, in of itself, nothing wrong with sparring with some one from a different style, pressure testing, etc. But it's just that a test. It doesn't prove any thing about understanding WC. The boxer opponent claims that WC sparring against WC using static technique isn't realistic. In fact, that is how one precisely learns and hones the mental discipline to defeat the boxer with all that boxer "stuff" he can do.... The WC artist is learning principles, not parroting form like the boxer.... bob, stick, weave, jab... I take those guys apart.... with KIME (like Laszlo does the boards).

2. TIME. 2:07. WC stylist claims that "90%" of WC (he sees) can't close on the boxer (or alternatively handle the boxer from boxing distance). KEY WORDS: "he sees." Yeah, the whole truth is there is a lot of martial art practitioners who train TMA (like Joe Rogan) yet can't do TMA.
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3. TIME 2:28. To prove his point, WC stylist runs into the boxer with a "static" Wing Chun straight punch and gets clocked by a right cross counter by Mr. Boxer. Earlier, the boxer guy faults WC for being static. Funny how that worked out so well.... EDIT: Actually Shotokan kumite , which so many pan as "watered down," emphasizes just how to put off such a gambit. IN JKA kumite we see it successfully done all the time... it's principles, not mimicking a physical form...
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Since I just visited a TSD school, I'll post a TSD vid showing how this WC stylist approach is all TMA wet. For starters, stop "learning some techniques, some stuff;" then "playing" around with your "Great" knowledge...

 

[ShotoNoob]

I've no idea what you are trying to say shotonoob.(?). I think you obviously have issues with that applied wing chun video. Are you trying to say that Duncan Leung doesn't know or practice wing chun?

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aH, AH, putting words in my mouth.... As to issues, I've stated the issues as some others have... You'll have to use those as a jumping off point....

 

[ShotoNoob]

I've no idea what you are trying to say shotonoob.(?). I think you obviously have issues with that applied wing chun video. Are you trying to say that Duncan Leung doesn't know or practice wing chun?

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Here's TSD principles on how to handle the boxer, explained bya Female TSD instructor. One not standing around, lollygagging like in my TKD fail backfist break vid... ha ha...

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It's not that you have no idea of what I'm saying, it's that you don't have any idea of what this TSD Master instructor is saying.... Therein lies the total issue. IN the form of the "static" exercise the WC instructor & Danny T are complaining about....
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I don't see her demo as "static." I don't see her running into her opponent with no defense. I don't see her remaining stationary. I see a (i) Start, (ii) Couple of complementary, synchronized moves CONTAINED in a specific body movement, & a Finnish. Is that static? I see some definite intent in her actions... who here talked about intent.? I see definite KIME, & probably chi involvement (sorry guys, I don't think she's @ the chi-ball level.).... I don;t see her trading punches (like Mr. Boxer who's got "Ring Experience") which we see in the poor quality striking so prevalent in MMA or typical sport karate.
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Overall, most important, I see mental discipline. She knows what she wants to do and does precisely that in the face of an attack... World's apart from the behavior of so-called TMA striking experts in the Gracie demo vids... WC is leaps & bounds above the straightforward dynamics demo'd here... REAL WC, that is...
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Mr. WC Instructor in my YT vid above... good luck with that... IMHO you'll need it/

 

[TSDTexan]

This is some interesting perspective.

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Okinawan karate can be very sophisticated.... Approach bona fide wing chun;? IMO, never come close.


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Agreed. Lead to the 'watering down' of Japanese karateka training & capability. Still, many Japanese karateka have still trained true to TMA principles...


\
Agreed. Yet the underlying principles are what counts.... No better lesson on this than Five-animal kung fu.


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False. Gichin Funakoshi knows more than you do...

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No, this training method advocated by Funakoshi reaches back through Okinawan karate history and even much further back to China. Funakoshi did engage in some re-engineering, as did other 20th Century Okinawan karate masters. This purpose has been posted here @ MT and a zillion other places, in books, etc.


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Horse crap by TMA standards. But true of Monkey see, monkey-do pseudo karateka...


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Not really up on the guy... a legend according to history I've read.
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EDIT: I just visited a TSD dojang {sp?} in my area. The instructor demonstrated to intermediate class, applications of "bunkai" in Pyung Ahn Cho Dan {sp?}. Same idea, they have 10 kata {hyung?} in the black-belt curriculum (I think), versus one.

Hyeung = Kata = Form or Model.
The idea went from old masters who knew less then 3to5 kata in their whole life, at an astonishing level of detail and depth, to arts of karate that have 2 or 3 kata per belt.

It would very much surpise you to know just how sophisticated the old ways were.


I dont even like to call the old stuff karate.. because it is nothing like what people think when they see a JKA sanctioned tournament.

When the why is not taught, one has to show (rank) by how much one knows (by) volume instead of quality.

Should read the old masters criticism of the reforms... with the "plowing the field remarks about kata"

 

[TSDTexan]

Here's YOur Typical WC Instructor Rogan would love to spar with... Another American Wing Chun Expert on YT who has figured out how all the Chinese Master's screwed up.... AGAIN!

\
FINALLY, THIS WC INSTRUCTOR, HAS COME UP WITH "REAL" WC TO BEAT BOXING.... WHAT A RELIEF.... GET THE GUY A PLANE TICKET TO CHINA SO HE CAN STRAIGHTEN THE WC FOREFATHERS OUT, AT LONG LAST...
\
1. For the record, there is, in of itself, nothing wrong with sparring with some one from a different style, pressure testing, etc. But it's just that a test. It doesn't prove any thing about understanding WC. The boxer opponent claims that WC sparring against WC using static technique isn't realistic. In fact, that is how one precisely learns and hones the mental discipline to defeat the boxer with all that boxer "stuff" he can do.... The WC artist is learning principles, not parroting form like the boxer.... bob, stick, weave, jab... I take those guys apart.... with KIME (like Laszlo does the boards).

2. TIME. 2:07. WC stylist claims that "90%" of WC (he sees) can't close on the boxer (or alternatively handle the boxer from boxing distance). KEY WORDS: "he sees." Yeah, the whole truth is there is a lot of martial art practitioners who train TMA (like Joe Rogan) yet can't do TMA.
\
3. TIME 2:28. To prove his point, WC stylist runs into the boxer with a "static" Wing Chun straight punch and gets clocked by a right cross counter by Mr. Boxer. Earlier, the boxer guy faults WC for being static. Funny how that worked out so well.... EDIT: Actually Shotokan kumite , which so many pan as "watered down," emphasizes just how to put off such a gambit. IN JKA kumite we see it successfully done all the time... it's principles, not mimicking a physical form...
\
Since I just visited a TSD school, I'll post a TSD vid showing how this WC stylist approach is all TMA wet. For starters, stop "learning some techniques, some stuff;" then "playing" around with your "Great" knowledge...

Izzo is a dousche-canoe. All talk, in hong kong he wouldn't have any students, due to the loss of face from master refusing all challenge matches.

"What, master won't fight again? I have to find a better teacher"
Of course Americans are pretty tame...

 

[ShotoNoob]

Hyeung = Kata = Form or Model.

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Tnx.

The idea went from old masters who knew less then 3to5 jata at an astonishing level of detail and depth, to arts of karate that have 2 or 3 kata per belt.

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Yeah, I have read same about old Okinawan masters. However, there's differing view on this. I think the quantity of Modern kata is counter productive beyond say,1st degree black-belt, as a generalization.... so we share common ground there....

When the why is not taught, one has to show (rank) by how much one knows (by) volume instead of quality.

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I'm a big "WHY" guy myself.

Should read the old masters criticism of the reforms... with the "plowing the field remarks about kata"

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Well, the late Okinawan Masters' & Funakoshi had legitimate goals in mind. The underlying principles of Okinawan karate are still in the Japanese versions. Form & tactic was 'simplified,' technical details expanded as you say in many regards... Funakoshi was sort of a bookworm....TMU. But addresses the issue of over-use of "reverse punch kumite...." which none other than Machida is very guilty of....
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In any event, the WC instructor in my YT vid above doesn't even know the principles, let alone tactics behind the TMA guard, in his case the WC extended arm guard. IMHO, guy is clueless on the WHY FOR the traditional guard.... likens it to function of a boxer's static hands up guard....
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Do you see the Female TSD instructors hands "stationary" during the 3 STAGES of her 1-step demo? And WOW, TSD is patterned off of that "watered down" Japanese karate, Shotokan.//// IN THE WC v. Boxer YT vid........Another case of, "I'll be cool and take up nifty, cool'o WC instead of that 'watered down,' Japanese karate -- with my BRAIN TURNED OFF." Then I'll bring in "Boxer Bro" to show how smart I am... really showing the original Chinese masters who how to do it (WC) ....I'd be

 

[ShotoNoob]

It is not acceptable just to mimic perfectly the technique being shown in the OMA dojos.

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Not be a purist, I agree with OP that Okinawan karate styles as a group can take on the base & tactical skills akin to WC; but if you pressed me, I'd take out "WC" and substitute "Kempo."

 

[TSDTexan]

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Tnx.

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Yeah, I have read same about old Okinawan masters. However, there's differing view on this. I think the quantity of Modern kata is counter productive beyond say,1st degree black-belt, as a generalization.... so we share common ground there....


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I'm a big "WHY" guy myself.


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Well, the late Okinawan Masters' & Funakoshi had legitimate goals in mind. The underlying principles of Okinawan karate are still in the Japanese versions. Form & tactic was 'simplified,' technical details expanded as you say in many regards... Funakoshi was sort of a bookworm....TMU. But addresses the issue of over-use of "reverse punch kumite...." which none other than Machida is very guilty of....
'----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
\
In any event, the WC instructor in my YT vid above doesn't even know the principles, let alone tactics behind the TMA guard, in his case the WC extended arm guard. IMHO, guy is clueless on the WHY FOR the traditional guard.... likens it to function of a boxer's static hands up guard....
\
Do you see the Female TSD instructors hands "stationary" during the 3 STAGES of her 1-step demo? And WOW, TSD is patterned off of that "watered down" Japanese karate, Shotokan.//// IN THE WC v. Boxer YT vid........Another case of, "I'll be cool and take up nifty, cool'o WC instead of that 'watered down,' Japanese karate -- with my BRAIN TURNED OFF." Then I'll bring in "Boxer Bro" to show how smart I am... really showing the original Chinese masters who how to do it (WC) ....I'd be

There is a great deal of debate where Hwang Kee actually got his Karate from. He claims from books. But he also trained and learned "chinese forms" from a Korean who trained under Toyama Sensei (and this Korean was trading CMA art for OMA with Toyama, and both were under the Imperial boot-heel)

But I have my reasons to think G. Yamaguichi taught Hwang Kee a bit in Manchuria while they were there at the same time.

Hwang Kee says Yamaguichi is a close personal friend of his. Then the whole Hard/Soft aspects pushed in early TSD are very gojo flavored. This gets spun with the Korean Karate book... that was actually written by a Chinese General in Korea... and TSD becomes Soobahk(do).

I see very little combat oriented TSD these days, but lots of soccer mom taking timmy to stripmall TSD mcDojang stuff these days.

 

[ShotoNoob]

Izzo is a dousche-canoe. All talk, in hong kong he wouldn't have any students, due to the loss of face from master refusing all challenge matches.

"What, master won't fight again? I have to find a better teacher"
Of course Americans are pretty tame...

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The sound lesson in his Video is that TMA is a mental discipline, and NOT the way he proposes - a physical do this, don't do that in some TMA stylistic form. I see the same problem with advocating physical pressure-testing versus the legitimate TMA mental training proposed by the TSD 1-step approach by the Female TSD Master instructor.
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Wing chun really comes into its own as an internal powered style... so chi proponents & critics have a much larger hurdle to leap over to get to REAL WC... compared to karate. That's my understanding....
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Good luck all with that....