any lord of the rings fans?

exile

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Yes. I also dont think it would have been a big deal for them as neither of them was going to die before they could meet again. If you think about it thats part of our human grasping most of us call love. I want to enjoy as much of my time with my loved ones before any (or ultimately all) of us die. The elves wouldnt have that drive.

Yes, this aspect of it is of course one that we as mortal being can't possibly see the same way as immortal beings would. It had bothered me for a long time---decades, in fact, though that probably sounds absurd---because Tolkien himself offers nothing in the way of an explanation for their separation, acts as though it were just perfectly normal; yet in other parts of the narrative, when there is a separation or sundering between companions, as when Frodo leaves the Shire to take ship at the Grey Havens, there's a very careful explanation of why it is that he can no longer stay. It seemed as though either I was missing something or, much worse, that it was simply going to be Just One Of Those Things, and I would never get an answer. So I'm very glad to have one that really does make sense of it all...




Essentially, the Valar jumped the gun and started meddling where they weren't supposed to. They brought the Elves across the sea, but the elves should have stayed in middle earth. The elves then returned to Middle Earth to chase Morgoth and reclaim the Silmarils and all that stuff. But they never should have left Middle Earth in the first place, at least not until Men came into their own and were prepared to be the dominant race in the world. The only reason the Elves are in exile, so to speak, is because the saw Valinor and know its beauty, but have rejected it. They never should have seen Valinor in the first place. The Valar were trying to be nice and overly protective by bringing them to Valinor, but it shouldn't have been done.

But Elvenholm and Valinor aren't the same place, are they? I had believed that Valinor lay well to the west of the Undying Islands where the Elves lived who had never gone to Middle Earth... it's been too long since I read the Sillmarilion (never really got into it the way I did LoTR---found it too much of an endless series of chronicles, with few if any emotional hooks to the storyline). I had thought that Elvenholm had been created specifically as a home for an immortal race (the Elves) who were however not on the same level in Tolkien's hierarchy of beings as the other immortal races (the Valar and Maiar), that Valinor was reserved for the latter, so that there had to be a place where the bottommost order of immortal beings got to live, just as there was a place for the topmost order of mortal beings (Numenor, for the Numenorians) separate from Middle Earth, which was where we miserable lot came in... I guess I'd better reread the first part of the Sillmarilion...


As to your last question, I have no idea.

Well, I'm really happy with Blotan's story and figure that it's probably the best shot at the answer.
 

Blotan Hunka

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But Elvenholm and Valinor aren't the same place, are they? I had believed that Valinor lay well to the west of the Undying Islands where the Elves lived who had never gone to Middle Earth... it's been too long since I read the Sillmarilion (never really got into it the way I did LoTR---found it too much of an endless series of chronicles, with few if any emotional hooks to the storyline). I had thought that Elvenholm had been created specifically as a home for an immortal race (the Elves) who were however not on the same level in Tolkien's hierarchy of beings as the other immortal races (the Valar and Maiar), that Valinor was reserved for the latter, so that there had to be a place where the bottommost order of immortal beings got to live, just as there was a place for the topmost order of mortal beings (Numenor, for the Numenorians) separate from Middle Earth, which was where we miserable lot came in... I guess I'd better reread the first part of the Sillmarilion...

Yes. Valinor IS elvenhome. AS to the elves leaving middle earth..if Im remembering my lore correctly...the elves awoke in middle earth and Orome discovered them. The Valar, aware of the risk Melkor posed to the Elves, beleaguered him in Utumno. After a long siege, Melkor and his forces were defeated, and Melkor was taken prisoner to Valinor.

Out of love for the Elves and to protect them from Melkor, Oromë was then sent to the Elves again, to invite any who so wished to come with him to Aman and live there. Most went. but a few remained behind. After the slaying of the trees and the theft of the Silmarills, a band of Elves left for middle earth on a vengeance mission (where they killed some of their own kind to take their ships) and were banned. After many years of fighting Melkor and many tales of heroism, Earendil sailed to the undeying lands to plea the Valar for help. The Valar ultimately agreed and came to middle earth to ultimately vanquish Melkor and forgive the elves and allow them to return to Elvenhome. At one point Valinor was actually an Island until Men (twisted by Sauron) tried to attack it which lead to the fall of Numenor and the Valar removing Valinor "from the circles of the world". So now only elves that can find the "straight path" across the sea can find it.
 

exile

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Yes. Valinor IS elvenhome. AS to the elves leaving middle earth..if Im remembering my lore correctly...the elves awoke in middle earth and Orome discovered them. The Valar, aware of the risk Melkor posed to the Elves, beleaguered him in Utumno. After a long siege, Melkor and his forces were defeated, and Melkor was taken prisoner to Valinor.

Out of love for the Elves and to protect them from Melkor, Oromë was then sent to the Elves again, to invite any who so wished to come with him to Aman and live there. Most went. but a few remained behind. After the slaying of the trees and the theft of the Silmarills, a band of Elves left for middle earth on a vengeance mission (where they killed some of their own kind to take their ships) and were banned. After many years of fighting Melkor and many tales of heroism, Earendil sailed to the undeying lands to plea the Valar for help. The Valar ultimately agreed and came to middle earth to ultimately vanquish Melkor and forgive the elves and allow them to return to Elvenhome. At one point Valinor was actually an Island until Men (twisted by Sauron) tried to attack it which lead to the fall of Numenor and the Valar removing Valinor "from the circles of the world". So now only elves that can find the "straight path" across the sea can find it.

Yes, as I read this a lot of the old stuff from the Silmarillion comes back to me. I had forgotten most of it but I guess it was in there somewhere...

...but now, can you aid me a little further in getting my confusions cleared up with this part of the story? Because I now realize that one of the main reasons I had thought of Valinor as a separate place from Elvenholm was that passage where JRRT writes of Faramir,

`So we always do,' he said, as they sat down, `we look towards Numenor that was, and beyond to Elvenhome that is, and to that which is beyond Elvenhome and will ever be....'

I had thought for a long time that the last reference was to Valinor... but given what you're saying, it must instead be a reference to Iluvatar Himself?
 

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Yes. Elvenhome is "heaven on earth" so to speak for the elves (and a holding pen for the Dwarves until all meet "God" at the END). "Beyond Elvenhome" is heaven itself where Men get to see God. Our "gift" that was perverted into fear by Melkor.

Literally, Farimir was talking about looking West where Numenor used to be...beyond that geographically was Valinor and past Valinor was "the wall of night" or eternity.
 

exile

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Yes. Elvenhome is "heaven on earth" so to speak for the elves (and a holding pen for the Dwarves until all meet "God" at the END). "Beyond Elvenhome" is heaven itself where Men get to see God. Our "gift" that was perverted into fear by Melkor.

Literally, Farimir was talking about looking West where Numenor used to be...beyond that geographically was Valinor and past Valinor was "the wall of night" or eternity.

OK, it finally all makes sense! Much appreciated, sir. :asian:
 

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As far as elves being able to defeat Sauron, and even give Morgoth a good fight, this is an element of the Silmarillian that never quite reconcilled properly in the Lord of the Rings. I think Tolkien sort of switched gears and changed his mind about how powerful certain individuals were, and there were clear inconsistencies between the early works and TLOR


I just got the impression and I think it was stated that toward the end of t he Third Age, the evles were simply not as powerful as they had been in ages before

(forgive me for not having read the similarillion in about 20 years and probably LOTR itself since right before Fellowship came out so I may be missing some details)

At one point Elrond could go one on one with Sauron but it seems clear that by the events in LOTR he was no longer in his class (either because Elrond's power had geatly diminished or Sauron's had increased. But Sauron was not in the same class of power as Melkor and Elrond, while one of the three greatest elves left in Middle Earth, he probably wasn't in the same class as his ancestors either.

Also, it goes beyond individual power but Sauron had been amassing an army and the Elves were leaving so the Elves could no longer mount as great a response to Sauron

I never saw it as a contradiction between LOTR and the Silmarillion, simple that not all Powerzs are created equal and by the time of the end of the Third Age, the players had diminshed greatly

And you gotta afmit, LOTR is really just a small story told in great detail compared to the scope of the evets and sie of the characters in the mythology
 

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I didn't mean to imply that Bombadil preceded the Valar/Maiar.

Those angelic beings preceded creation.

I meant that he was simply the first living creature created when the Song became a physical, real place.

Also, re: the elves being able to stand toe-to-toe with Melkor and Sauron: the ancient elves where somewhat stronger than latter generations, is the impression I get.

Fingolfin (Finwë Ñolofinwë) was able to give Melkor wounds that never quite healed up, from what I recall. (Very sad, the passing of Fingolfin, one of my favorite characters from the Silmarillion).

Especially the Noldor who lived in the light of the Two Trees side-by-side with the Valar/Maiar before they were extinguished (by Ungoliath and Melkor).

As for Galadriel:

Briefly (and roughly - been awhile since I've read it) the Valar invited the elves to come live with them in Valinor (which at that time was still physically part of Middle Earth) because Melkor was terrorizing them, capturing and distorting them into orcs and whatnot.

Three elven houses (Vanyar, Noldor, Teleri) decided to accept the invitation while the "dark elves" (not bad, just didn't benefit from hanging out with the Valar) loved the starlight and were a bit scared, thinking it another Melkor trick.

When Melkor stole the Silmarils from Fëanor, he got all pissy and made horrible oaths.

So basically, the Noldor were told "if you leave, don't come back."

Oh, and they stole the Teleri elves beloved ships and slaughtered many of them.

Fëanor even betrayed some of the elves who didn't get to ride on the ships and had to make a long, hard march across the icy north.

So Galadriel was among those who were in exile. She was high elf (Noldor) while her husband Celeborn was not.

With the ring, she could make a little corner of Middle Earth bearable (by keeping back the ravages of time). Without it, it was too sad to stay, and I guess she got forgiven for her part in the war against Sauron.

When the High Men of Numenor got tricked by Sauron, who at that time was still able to be physically charming into attempting to sail to Valinor and seize immortality, the Valar temporarily handed things back over to Illuvatar who, as I understand it, re-made the world as a globe, destroyed Numenor and wiped out the Numenoreans — all except a small group of "the faithful" led by Elendil and his sons who sailed to Middle Earth and survived, and founded the kingdoms of Arnor in the north and Gondor in the South.


Really, it is not easy reading, but there are some great stories in the Silmarillion. Epic. Tragic. And overall, very, very sad. But worth reading.

Heck, this thread has me wanting to go back and read it all once again :)
 

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The whole idea of "even things we see as evil all work to the greater glory of God" is an interesting topic and probably part of Tolkiens own personal rationalization of evil. If God is all knowing and all seeing why do bad things happen? Well, this is just a temporary state and our living or dying isnt really that important to God as that just means we get to return "home". We are all given free will to do go or evil but in the end evil defeats itself and blends into the "great music".
 

exile

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As for Galadriel:

Briefly (and roughly - been awhile since I've read it) the Valar invited the elves to come live with them in Valinor (which at that time was still physically part of Middle Earth) because Melkor was terrorizing them, capturing and distorting them into orcs and whatnot....

Really, it is not easy reading, but there are some great stories in the Silmarillion. Epic. Tragic. And overall, very, very sad. But worth reading.

Heck, this thread has me wanting to go back and read it all once again :)

Yes, your account and Blotan's are in agreement and are consistent with what I remember from the Silmarillion (yes, it has been a long time, and yes, I also think probably wouldn't hur to revisit it and brush up on some of the really ancient history from the first part of the Silmarillion).

The immortality of the Elves has always been one of the interesting things about the Silmarillion. The Elves are immortal but they can be killed. But instead of dying in way that mortals do when they're killed, they go to `the Halls of Mandos' and hang around there for a while while he decides how long to keep 'em. And then they get to live again as they had before they'd been killed---isn't this what happened to Glorfindel? And he wound up saving Frodo when the Nazgul seemed to have cornered him at the border of Rivendell. Presumably, the Elves who were murdered in the Kinslaying also went to Mandos to be judged and to wait their turn to return to bodily form, yes?
 

stickarts

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chris_มวยไทย;651498 said:
a random thought - have any of you heard of alatar and polando (sp?) the blue , they were sent to the men of rhun and khand in the south , but were never seen again i read this on a few website , they all said the same thing , not much info on them on google :(

Ithryn Luin. The blue wizards. They got the old "doesn't come into this tale".
 

Don Roley

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Ithryn Luin. The blue wizards. They got the old "doesn't come into this tale".

I read about them in Unfinished Tales. But it does not list names. Anyone know what book since then let slip their names? Or is their a chance that they were named by fans on some web site?
 

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chris_มวยไทย;651498 said:
a random thought - have any of you heard of alatar and polando (sp?) the blue , they were sent to the men of rhun and khand in the south , but were never seen again i read this on a few website , they all said the same thing , not much info on them on google :(


I knew there were two wizards in blue who don't come into the story, but I have never seen them named.
 

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IOr is their a chance that they were named by fans on some web site?

I suspect this may be true. I've read thru a number of the volumes that Christopher has been publishing (not all, but I've gotten a good way into them) and I have not seen this anywhere yet.
 

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quote=zDom
Also, re: the elves being able to stand toe-to-toe with Melkor and Sauron: the ancient elves where somewhat stronger than latter generations, is the impression I get.

I think you are correct, it seems the elves in the later ages have lost some of their power, I suppose due to the waning of their kind in middle earth. Their time is over and it is time now for them to step aside and let Men come into power.

However, this issue was discussed in the later volumes published by Christopher. I wish I could remember where the reference was, but it was recognized that at least in part, this different presentation was due to inconsistencies in how Mr. Tolkien wrote and presented his characters. How they were portrayed in the early stories just wouldn't work so well in the LOR, but it was sort of too late to go back and change it all in the early stories as well, to make it all consistent. So it just sort of ended up with some inconsistencies and we have to live with it. Personally, I don't have much problem with it. In a way, it gives some interesting things to think about.

Fingolfin (Finwë Ñolofinwë) was able to give Melkor wounds that never quite healed up, from what I recall. (Very sad, the passing of Fingolfin, one of my favorite characters from the Silmarillion).

Yeah, I loved that part too, Fingolfin was one of my favorites from the old stories. I think he was Galadriel's brother? He was less of a hothead than Feanor, and a great guy. Very heroic, but ultimately I think Morgoth literally pounded him into the dirt with his mace.

Especially the Noldor who lived in the light of the Two Trees side-by-side with the Valar/Maiar before they were extinguished (by Ungoliath and Melkor).

Good point, it could be argued that having lived so close to the Valar that they were strengthened by it.
 

stickarts

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Good reference!
I also remember one note stating that Olorin (Gandalf) was the only Wizard to complete the mission successfully.
Maybe that was in "unfinished tales"?
 

exile

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So now I have another question... does anyone have a clue about why Jackson changed Faramir's character so fundamentally in the movie? In the novel, the episode in Ithilien is a kind of respite, a reflective time of great beauty in the context of Tolkien's narrative. In the movie it becomes a time of horrific danger for the Quest, a point where it seems almost certain to fail. Is this just Jackson's piling-up-of-peril's approach to the direction of the epic, or there something else involved that I'm missing? Any thoughts? (Like Michael, I'm very fond of Tolkien's Faramir... Faramir in the movie seems to act in a manner I don't find fully consistent, at least in the Ithilien episode).
 

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