reality

Discussion in 'General Self Defense' started by aedrasteia, Oct 10, 2014.

  1. aedrasteia

    aedrasteia Purple Belt

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    women have no expectation of privacy in a public place like this

    http://www.addictinginfo.org/2014/10/10/new-loophole-in-upskirt-law-lets-perverts-violate-a-womans-privacy-in-public-video/

    http://www.addictinginfo.org/2014/1...rts-violate-a-womans-privacy-in-public-video/

    brought to my attention by a former student. Yeah, cause it happened to her.
    and her 12 year old friend (she is 15 now). The guy who did this to her
    was a 20 year old cousin. And yes - he thought it was hilarious and posted on FB.
    Reactions by adults around them (and in family)?
    yeah. nothing.

    My experience? never mentioned in 95% of MA based classes
    (along with many other intrusive behaviors). we do it differently.

    what do you do?
     
    Last edited: Oct 10, 2014
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  2. Paul_D

    Paul_D Master Black Belt

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    From I can make out he has not surreptitiously positioned his camera up their skirt or between their legs by sneaking up behind them as they are walking for example, it would appear he is just taking photo's of them when they are sitting in such a position that people can already see up their skirt

    “There is no evidence Mr. Cleveland positioned his camera in any way or employed photographic techniques or illumination, so as to capture images that were not already on public display.”

    Therefore I am not sure how it can be viewed as a privacy issue, when you are sat in such a way that people can see freely what you are displaying. So I think the judge has it right.

    Minors of course is a different matter.
     
    Last edited: Oct 10, 2014
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  3. jezr74

    jezr74 Master of Arts

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    What about a window open to someone's house, does that mean since it's open anyone can climb through it.

    I know how I would react if I caught someone doing that to my wife or daughter.

    I think the judge lacked common sense, ridiculous.
     
  4. aedrasteia

    aedrasteia Purple Belt

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    Not asking about legal status.
    Women/girls want to know what to do?
    your response?

    re: status. Photos are possible only by sitting below the targeted woman and
    re-positionong the camera out and away with lens pointing up, not by holding it
    to the eye. Park officers noticed how he was repositioning the camera (away from his
    eye, at arms length and pointed upwards). Completely different.
    Tha'ts how/why officers noticed him.

    My question regarded defense. and you/others suggest?

    w/respect A?
     
  5. jezr74

    jezr74 Master of Arts

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    She could report the post in FB to have it removed.

    The reason would need to be based on age. But if the parents are not responsible, it limits options in some cases to going externally, a help line for children for example.
     
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  6. aedrasteia

    aedrasteia Purple Belt

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    Statute must be applied as written unless record exists on 'legislative intent'. The judge deplored the loophole in the law but it will have to be closed. Local folks there will be working on that.

    I empathize w/you.
    But what does your wife or daughter actually do when something like this happens?
    If you teach SD classes for women, do you talk about this?
    What do you say?
    w/respect A
     
  7. jks9199

    jks9199 Administrator Staff Member

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    The defense for this is to recognize when you're in public, and to recognize what may be visible. That's about all you can do -- and there may be no practical way to avoid it.
     
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  8. jezr74

    jezr74 Master of Arts

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    We talk about this kind of thing fairly often, as it happens more often than I'd like to admit.

    My wife, depending on the surroundings will call the person out, if it's isolated, she will get away as soon as safely possible. If I am with her, the chances of these encounters drops dramatically. If I see something, I will do something. If that's getting clear of the situation or helping out someone else I will. It has a lot to do with awareness of surroundings, that's what I keep talking to my kids and wife about.

    With my children it's a little different, I ask them to try and be aware of where they are and who is around. Keep mental track of who is considered trustworthy and can be approached if someone makes you feel uncomfortable. (eg. policeman, a known school teacher, a close friend of the family) We also teach them to distinguish the difference between uniforms and that not all are a sign of authority and trust. I never encourage them to approach, and to go to a trusted person if they see it happen to someone else as well.

    It's a hard one and we constantly have to have these conversations so they keep it in their minds (even for myself and my wife), but we also do not want to make them scared of the world either.
     
  9. aedrasteia

    aedrasteia Purple Belt

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    marginal response.

    In the example given by the young woman in my class - she was _not_ in general public.
    She was sitting in a chair on the porch of family house. He was sitting on the porch steps about 3 feet below her
    (deliberately) turned slightly to the side and, again, not holding the camera up to his eye while he
    crouched down. He held it at arms length, pointed upwards. Like the park police, that's how it
    was noticeable that he was doing this. She was not wearing anything revealing - only visible if someone
    purposefully got in a position to tilt the camera up her skirt to her crotch.

    He denied he was 'doing anything'. Until pics showed up on FB. When she called him out - he thought it
    was hilarious, family members blew it all off.

    She brought it up in a teen girls class when I ask girls to describe a situation they had a 'bad gut feeling' about.

    The man involved was her 20 yr old cousin.

    what do you have to offer for this?
     
  10. aedrasteia

    aedrasteia Purple Belt

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    ******

    thanks jezr74

    Do you talk about this in terms of only strangers?

    More thoughtful response, however. Would she speak directly to a harasser like the park guy? This
    man was confronted and arrested by park police. Its paraticable impossible for a woman in that circumstance to notice (he's seated several steps below her and he is _not_ facing her - he's pointing the camera at arms length. Only the police, observing from some distance, could see what's happening.

    In the situation of the young lady in my class, the harasser was, in fact, a family member, part of that 'circle of trust'
    nothing to do with a uniformed or authority figure. This guy was a generally trusted guy.
    She certainly trusted her uncle (his father) and her grandfather. Both indicated she was 'too sensitive' descriptive terms like ''touchy', stuck-up and paranoid were applied. Called it a prank, a joke.

    Tough situation but it opened a teriffic working conversation in class - lots of experiences
    from all the girls about 'bad gut feeling' situations or actual assaults/contact.
    95% involved people the girls knew or were in the family -
    We worked on those.
    your thoughts?

    w/respect A
     
  11. jezr74

    jezr74 Master of Arts

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    These are the hard questions. You could put up flyers in your school for the local kids helpline. If there is no one in the family they can trust they should get some good advice. Even if they call anonymously for advice, then tell their parents that they made the call and this is what they said they should do. That should get their attention, I tell my kids they have a right to speak up if they feel they are being taken advantage of. (This is all assuming they are not in an abusive parent situation as well)

    In the park situation, go and get help safely, I'd never suggest for a minor to confront a potential harasser.
     
  12. aedrasteia

    aedrasteia Purple Belt

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    I'm not optimistic about Facebook:
    "In December 2012, an Icelandic woman named Thorlaug Agustsdottir discovered a Facebook group called “Men are better than women.” One image she found there, Thorlaug wrote to us this summer in an email, “was of a young woman naked chained to pipes or an oven in what looked like a concrete basement, all bruised and bloody. She looked with a horrible broken look at whoever was taking the pic of her curled up naked.” Thorlaug wrote an outraged post about it on her own Facebook page.
    Before long, a user at “Men are better than women” posted an image of Thorlaug’s face, altered to appear bloody and bruised. Under the image, someone commented, “Women are like grass, they need to be beaten/cut regularly.” Another wrote: “You just need to be raped.” Thorlaug reported the image and comments to Facebook and requested that the site remove them.
    “We reviewed the photo you reported,” came Facebook’s auto reply, “but found it does not violate Facebook’s Community Standards on hate speech, which includes posts or photos that attack a person based on their race, ethnicity, national origin, religion, sex, gender, sexual orientation, disability, or medical condition.”
    Instead, the Facebook screeners labeled the content “Controversial Humor.” Thorlaug saw nothing funny about it. She worried the threats were real.
    The Unsafety Net: How Social Media Turned Against Women - The Atlantic

    I was contacted by a mother whose daughter's FB page had been hijacked and used to send 'come rape me' messages.
    Dealing w/FB was not helpful. Maybe you've had better results? I hope so.

    w/respect, A
     
  13. jezr74

    jezr74 Master of Arts

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    Unfortunately it sounds like the parents need a wake up call.

    If a friend or family member of my daughter (or anyone in my family) posted something derogatory about them, I'd definitely be compelled as a parent to take necessary steps to prevent it from happening again.
     
  14. jezr74

    jezr74 Master of Arts

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    Absolutely, not just strangers but friends of the family as well. If we call a male friend of the family uncle, it means to the kids that we trust that friend. and we encourage them to tell us anything that makes them uncomfortable, regardless of who it is. And they have told us things they didn't understand or felt weird about before so we can help talk through it and assess the situation.
     
  15. Steve

    Steve Mostly Harmless

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    What would you do? Is a dilemma. I'm interested in your opinion.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  16. Tez3

    Tez3 Sr. Grandmaster

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    This is something we probably wouldn't deal with at martial arts but we'd certainly deal with in Girlguiding. We regularly discuss with the girls and young women in age appropriate groups subjects such as this. Girlguiding here and in most countries is a very proactive feminist ( in all the good ways, we are girl lead) organisation. We talk about ways of dealing with all the situations girls feel they need to deal with, we have professional advisors as well as peer group advisors. We also all train in 'Safe Space' which means girls can feel they can they are able to be themselves and discuss what they want. We don't just discuss what to do though we support the girls so they can take the action they feel is necessary. It may be going to the police, social services etc.
     
  17. aedrasteia

    aedrasteia Purple Belt

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    Thanks Tez - that's similar to what I do in a class. I'll say more later - in a rush right now.
    Are Girlguides similar to Girl Scouts here? I've done a bunch of classes and other stuff w/GirlScouts
    here. They have a badge for 'self-defense' which really focuses on these situations -
    not so much on specific physical techniques. At one time I ended up doing work with the
    adult troop leaders.Doing work with the girls revealed how uncomfortable the women
    troop leaders were with this - lots of harassment and nasty intrusive behavior was happening
    to them in personal life and work too and they were really looking for some help.
    That was a surprise for me, though it shouldn't have been. For about 2 years we had
    great support from a regional director. When she moved away the new person de-emphasized
    personal safety.
    thanks
    A
     
  18. Tez3

    Tez3 Sr. Grandmaster

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    We are part of the same movement, a sisterhood! We work together with girls and women not just to have fun together but to make a change. There's a very good advocacy toolkit on this site as well as explaining the campaigns we are part of.
    World Association of Girl Guides and Girl Scouts - What we do
     
  19. aedrasteia

    aedrasteia Purple Belt

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    Thanks Steve, its good to hear from you.
    More later - in a rush right now.
    Bringing this up is the first step. I can't comprehend
    not getting this. It's the core of SD work w/women and girls.
    I have multiple steps but building a connection w/the class comes first
    so this isn't the first activity we do. I build in a process that allows them to
    write down a description of a 'bad gut feeling' situation, because most are extremely reluctant
    to talk out loud about this at first. A few are not but they are exceptions - because the
    situations involve people who are already 'inside the circle' - not strangers.
    We do discuss 'stranger' but even there most women/girls in the class have been taught
    _not_ to trust their own 'gut' feelings, so they are constantly torn in 2 directions and are
    very unsure what to actually do. So this gets intensified when the aggressor is someone,
    usually an older male, they know who sends very mixed behavior.

    Just getting this stuff out and open for discussion is a huge step.
    Like Tez said, creating a 'safe space' to talk is a major breakthrough and requires some
    skills from the teacher. I hardly ever see those in MA based classes.
    more later,
    w/respect A
     
  20. jks9199

    jks9199 Administrator Staff Member

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    That's a somewhat different situation than the one in the article. In the article, the women were all in a public place, "exposed" to the view of anyone there. The photographer simply took advantage of that. In the articles I've read, there's no suggestion he was in an extremely odd position or behavior. Enough to call attention, yes, but not a hidden camera attached to his shoe. I'd certainly like to see more about exactly what he was doing, but I haven't found it in several accounts. It's akin to someone who takes hundreds of pictures of cheerleaders at a football game, and sorts through them to find the moments where their skirts are up. Certainly creepy, certainly "odd" -- but he's done nothing illegal according to this judge. (Nota bene: different judges may find a completely different ruling...)

    The situation you describe is a little bit different. The creepy cousin went out of his way to set up a position and surreptitiously take the pictures. There's certainly a boundary issue at the barest minimum -- and I bet it runs pretty deep in that family based on the described reaction. But the best defense, as it is so often, is to know the danger (in this case, an absolutely untrustworthy creepazoid cousin) and consciously prevent the opportunity.

    Another situationA guy is walking down the street on a public sidewalk. He looks into a window, and stops, staying on the sidewalk, as a lovely young lady has decided to disrobe in front of the window. She's got no shades or blinds, isn't lingering or putting on a show, simply changing clothes -- but he's getting an eyeful. When she's done, she glances out the window and freaks out. Cops are called, and make contact with the guy. Has he broken the law?

    Nope. He was in a public place, and he saw something that was essentially in public view. In Virginia, the laws against peeping include elements of trespass and furtiveness. Mr. Hypothetical here is in a public place, where he has every right to be, and did nothing furtive or to enhance his view. Had he entered her property, or climbed a tree to improve his view -- things might be different.

    One side note: "public" place does not, in a legal sense, mean what some think it does. Even though it's private property, your front lawn is a public space; there's nothing to prevent people from seeing and observing activities there. Back yards are often similarly considered "public" if people beyond the residents are there. like when you're holding a cookout. As described, the porch in your student's case was likely a "public" space.123
     

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