Anti-Grappling Techniques...

Kababayan

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Hello everyone,
This is my first post here and I am hoping that some of you can help me out with some research. I haven't been on one of these types of forums for years, as back then most of the posts were people just bad-mouthing other martial artists. I am hoping to have a better experience here. So that I don't drag out explanation before getting to the question, I'll ask it first and then give explanation. I am trying to put together a list of grappling counters to be used after a takedown has happened. What techniques, if any, have any of you come across that are effective to counter a grappler after a takedown has happened? Most of what I have seen is about sprawling and not be taken down, but I am looking for the best way to beat a grappler without turning it into a "who's better at BJJ" contest.

I have a list of what I've seen so far and would like to add to it. I have been training in various martial arts for 35 years, mostly in more traditional arts. About ten years ago I began training in various "reality based self defense" to fill in the self defense gaps that my traditional arts have. I found Krav Maga about four years ago. I recently got my Black Belt in Krav, and as much as I love it, most of the grappling defense techniques are effective against basic grapplers. I am looking for something that will work even with very experienced grapplers. I know that the easiest response would be to learn to grapple better but, as a stand up fighter, I don't want to rely on having to out grapple an experienced grappler. Plus at my age training full time in BJJ isn't an option anymore. I do have some grappling experience (about a year at Gracies and 10th Planet combined) so I do know the terminology and moves. I am more focusing on hitting them with something they don't expect. Any help is greatly appreciated. Here is what I have collected so far. Three of the four I saw occur during "friendly" Jiu Jitsu matches (not street fights.) The Vunak bite (kina mutay) was taught to me when I trained with Paul and some of his students.

- When a triangle choke was attempted: Before the choke was cinched in the person in the choke bit the inner thigh and then hammered the groin of the grappler and then stood up.

- Off of a double leg (Paul Vunak's Kina Mutay): The person being taken down wraps the grappler in a guard, holds the grappler's head tight, and bites into the grappler's cheek. When the grappler pushes back, you release and stand up.

- Off a side control: Reach in between the legs of the person on top and grab and squeeze the groin to get your opponents hips up, either your opponent lets go or you have a chance to get your legs under and pull to your guard.

- If you are in a person's guard: Sit back, hammer or punch your opponent's groin. Stand up and get away. (Krav move)

Any more added to the list is greatly appreciated. Helpful responses only please. Thank you,

Kab
 

Kung Fu Wang

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I am trying to put together a list of grappling counters to be used after a takedown has happened.
For different throws, the counter will be different. There is no "one size fit all" solution.

For example, the best counter for "leg lift" throw is called "ride on".

You

- borrow your opponent's leg lifting force,
- jump on top of his back, and
- crash him down to the ground.

leg_lift.jpg
 
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drop bear

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If you bite my thigh while I am triangle choking you. I will take your eyes home with me.

Ok. Lets sepparate the defences into 2 parts.

1. The mechanical defence.

2. Going schoolyard.

Interestingly the Mechanical defence for a triangle choke specifically reqires you to have your head up. This action defends the choke. If you are biting a thigh. Your head is down. Helping the choke.

When you go schoolyard you do not want to work against the mechanical defence.


So posture up save your neck and then look for some sort of dirty trick. If that floats your boat.

Of course you could also just wait for a dozen guys to stomp someones head in. Because that allways happens right?

Now when you are in guard This is the anti grapple magic street fighting secrets.

Keep both hands in or both hands out. And stay square. This is more important than any bite eyegouge or other schoolyard trick.
 

Tony Dismukes

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I am looking for the best way to beat a grappler without turning it into a "who's better at BJJ" contest.

Once you are on the ground against a skilled grappler, your defense has to be built around a foundation of solid grappling. That doesn't mean you have to be better at BJJ in general. You don't have to be good at submissions or exotic guards, passes, and sweeps. You do have to be solid at defending and escaping from inferior positions and regaining your feet. Those are grappling skills. Things like biting, gouging, groin strikes, and so on are add-ons which can enhance your grappling but do not substitute for them.

When I teach strikers who want to learn ground defense, I teach them the same fundamental defenses and escapes I teach to BJJ students. The only difference is that I get them to follow up those escapes by regaining their feet rather than finishing the fight on the ground.

I am looking for something that will work even with very experienced grapplers
Everything I said above applies even more so in this case. A beginner grappler may be so shocked by a bite or groin grab that he forgets what he's doing. An experienced grappler (especially one who trains for street application) will punish you for escalating the situation with such tactics if you don't have the grappling chops to immediately escape once you've tried them. Ask expert striker/wanton sociopath Gerard Gordeau who tried to bite Royce Gracie and got choked out for his effort and who eye gouged Yuki Nakai and got heel hooked in response.

Plus at my age training full time in BJJ isn't an option anymore

How old are you?

When a triangle choke was attempted: Before the choke was cinched in the person in the choke bit the inner thigh and then hammered the groin of the grappler and then stood up.

Sounds like the triangle choke was not properly applied. This tactic is not likely to work against an expert.

Off of a double leg (Paul Vunak's Kina Mutay): The person being taken down wraps the grappler in a guard, holds the grappler's head tight, and bites into the grappler's cheek. When the grappler pushes back, you release and stand up.

This can work if your basic closed guard technique is solid (grappling skill), your disengaging & stand-up technique is solid (grappling skill), and your opponent is not psychologically prepared for that level of escalation. If he is prepared, then you better hope your disengagement was successful or you are about to be feeling some payback. Also bear in mind that if the scenario is already so dire that biting is justified, then your opponent may already be applying his own attacks off of the takedown which will pre-emptively negate your biting.

Off a side control: Reach in between the legs of the person on top and grab and squeeze the groin to get your opponents hips up, either your opponent lets go or you have a chance to get your legs under and pull to your guard.

More likely to work against beginners than against advanced grapplers. When I have someone in side control, I am monitoring the position of their near hand pretty carefully. Even if someone does manage to grab at my groin, I am more likely to inflict painful countermeasures than to let you escape.

If you are in a person's guard: Sit back, hammer or punch your opponent's groin. Stand up and get away. (Krav move)

Being able to effectively apply this tactic essentially depends on being able to win the battle for control of posture and distance before you can effectively land any strikes. Winning that battle is a matter of grappling skill. If I am in your guard, I can probably land some effective strikes to your groin, because I have a couple decades more grappling experience than you do. If you are in my guard, it's highly unlikely that you will have the opportunity to even try hitting my groin and attempting to do so will put you in a worse situation.

Once again, this doesn't mean you have to be a better BJJ player than your opponent to escape back to your feet and get back to your striking game. It just means you have to be very solid in those grappling skills which are most fundamental to surviving and escaping. If you are in someone's guard, the most fundamental skills are posture and base.


Squeezing his windpipe.

Squeezing the windpipe is a grappling technique. Trying it against a superior grappler who has already started to win the positional battle is not necessarily the best tactical move if you want to escape the grappling arena and reset on your own terms.
 

Kung Fu Wang

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Are you talking stand up anti-grappling, or ground game anti-grappling, or both? IMO, in both cases, you have to be able to sense your opponent's intention.

When your opponent tries to

- straight his arm, you will help him to straight more.
- bend his arm, you will help him to bend more.
- rotate his body in one direction, you will help him to rotate more
- ...

Your force + his force > your force
 

drop bear

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So. the anti grapple.

Sit outs stand ups.




 

Kung Fu Wang

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IMO, the term "anti-striking" may exist, but the term "anti-grappling" just doesn't exist. You don't have to be a good striker to turn a striking game into a grappling game. But the moment that the grappling game start, you have to be a good grappler to finish it.
 

drop bear

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IMO, the term "anti-striking" may exist, but the term "anti-grappling" just doesn't exist. You don't have to be a good striker to turn a striking game into a grappling game. But the moment that the grappling game start, you have to be a good grappler to finish it.

Yes and no. You can either focus on finishing with submissions. Which would be grappling.

Or finishing with strikes or escapes which would be anti grappling.

They have overlaps.
 

Charlemagne

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Tony is right. The best defense if you have already been taken to the ground by an experienced grappler is to have solid grappling skills.

As for the whole "groin grab" thing while on the ground or biting while someone is putting the triangle on you.


Seriously. It's time to put nonsense like this to rest. If you want to be able to handle yourself on the ground, train an art that does this (Judo, BJJ, Catch, CSW, etc.). My personal preference would be BJJ in a traditional group that does the original stuff that deals with strikes on the ground in addition to submissions. Regardless, anyone of them will put you further down the road than you are now. There isn't a shortcut.
 

Kung Fu Wang

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Or finishing with strikes or escapes which would be anti grappling.
In order to be able to finish with striking, you have to have the skill to free your arms, that will be grappling skill.

For example, how to break apart a wrist grip is not striking skill but grappling skill. If your opponent has strong grip and you don't know to twist your arm against his thumb (1 finger), you may not even be able to break that wrist grip. You then can't punch back.
 
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drop bear

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In order to be able to finish with striking, you have to have the skill to free your arms, that will be grappling skill IMO.

Yeah but there are differences in context. You can throw submissions from your back. So if your focus was submissions you can move through a bunch of options there.

So in essence you are training grappling.

Now if you dont want to finish with submissions. You need to change your grappling style to accommodate that. And it needs to be called something.

A big exaple is whether you would leap of mount for an arm bar. A grappler would. An anti grappler wouldn't.
 

Kung Fu Wang

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Plus at my age training full time in BJJ isn't an option anymore.
When you are 80, you may not be able to box 15 rounds, or wrestle 15 rounds, you can still play ground game. The ground game does not involve

- punch to the head,
- land on the body.

Since you can tap out whenever you want to, I just don't see the ground game can have any age limitation. Many BJJ schools skip the stand up game and directly go to the ground game.
 
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Kababayan

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Thank you all for your great responses. I was originally asking about what to do during the ground-fight that would be dirty and effective, but I greatly appreciate all of the information given by everyone. I have some limited grappling skills, about a year's worth, but never had the passion for it like I have for the stand-up arts. I have 35 years of martial arts experience but always felt that my ground game was lacking. I guess I was hoping to get some info that I can incorporate into my present experience without having to go and train bjj full time. Thanks again for the great responses.
 

drop bear

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Thank you all for your great responses. I was originally asking about what to do during the ground-fight that would be dirty and effective, but I greatly appreciate all of the information given by everyone. I have some limited grappling skills, about a year's worth, but never had the passion for it like I have for the stand-up arts. I have 35 years of martial arts experience but always felt that my ground game was lacking. I guess I was hoping to get some info that I can incorporate into my present experience without having to go and train bjj full time. Thanks again for the great responses.

You could. But you would need to hunt down a guy who knows what they are doing.

Mostly you would want to learn escapes.

Which would not be a bad base to have anyway.
 

Danny T

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So...you are still young and can train in some type of grappling system. BJJ isn't the only ground system around that has some very good escapes.
 

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