Anthony cummings

Discussion in 'Ninjutsu' started by Finlay, Jul 31, 2018.

  1. Finlay

    Finlay Green Belt

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    Has anyone here looked at Anthony Cummings' youtube channel

    He seems to be quite well read in all things ninja, not sure if he actually studies ninjitsu, or maybe his interest is purely academic.

    However i would be interested to hear from other
     
  2. now disabled

    now disabled Master Black Belt

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    Oh you are going to open a can of worms lol

    He heads Natori Ryu (he has a channel for that to ) which he has resurrected (It was a Ryu in the Edo period) there are many varying opinions and I guess it is up to you what you believe and what you don't.

    Bear in mind he is an author and you will certainly find him pushing his books ( no probs there) He is pretty forthright in his views on things and does cause much debate.

    Just be careful on what you believe (not just from him btw) on the "ninja" as ummm it can cause quite a bit of heated debate
     
  3. hoshin1600

    hoshin1600 Senior Master

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    he has come up on threads here from time to time. the general consensus is that his views and books are not very accurate and has a lot of fantasy included passed off as truth.
     
  4. Rat

    Rat Black Belt

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    I got his book on the samurai and ninja, issue is only a academic can actually give a good review on a book which is claimed to be a translated scroll.

    If he has actually started a re constructive ninjitsu school, i cant see any issue with it if its legit. HEMA is 100% re constructed by the instructors.
     
  5. now disabled

    now disabled Master Black Belt

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    There are issues with that Rat and there are questions over what is translation and what is interpretation or ummm I shall leave it there
     
  6. Tez3

    Tez3 Sr. Grandmaster

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    Say 'Chris Parker' three times...……………………..
     
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  7. kempodisciple

    kempodisciple MT Moderator Staff Member

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  8. now disabled

    now disabled Master Black Belt

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    If you go to his you tube channel Natori Ryu you will get full instructions on everything from skinning a pheasant to how to draw a sword with your left hand and you will see them all jumping about doing skills in their hakama and red kegogi, tabi and straw footwear, it is certainly "interesting" (tongue in cheek) however to me it looks just plain silly more like larping (not knocking larping) and how and why anyone would or could take a well known (but extinct school) and resurrect it seems to me to be somewhat bizarre.

    It could be a very very good marketing ploy as nearly all is referenced to his books. What gets me is as far as I can see or have read Natori Ryu was a school of Military Tactics (I think there may have been two at some point from what I can find out but the one they refer to is the one from the Kishu branch which I believe was part of the Tokugawa family - the guys who know more about that will give more details there) what I cannot find and I am stumped on is there does not seem to be a sword school or the like yet they are all performing sword "skills". Maybe the sword guys will have a better take on that as I don't know which sword school they are taking things from. I did hear a mention of Musashi so maybe they are taking it from there. It does to me seem very odd to try and teach and form a school from translations of scrolls (just my opinion).

    I am just skeptical of that kind of thing and the whole "Ninjutsu" thing

    just my take on things lol
     
  9. Chris Parker

    Chris Parker Grandmaster

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    Dammit...

    Godsdammit......

    Yes.

    Nope.

    HA!!! Nope.

    Ooh... nope.

    Well.... we'll see about that...

    Ha, yeah...

    Well... no. He doesn't "head" a ryu... he heads his bizarre association... and it's less a matter of what you believe, as much as how much you understand things... I'll see if I can clarify as we go...

    The debate is not caused by his forthrightness, so much...

    This is very true.

    Oh, we'll cover what the issues with his work is...

    There are multiple issues...

    His reasons are quite simple, and it's all down to his ego... of course, I wouldn't suggest anything he shows are "instructions".... certainly not qualified, or accurate ones... or even safe, for that matter...

    Oh, godsdammit... no, nothing at all to do with Musashi other than his uninformed imagination...

    Fair enough.

    Okay.... the following is a somewhat potted history of Antony Cummins, including the various issues with his work. I will emphasise that everything I bring up here is factual, and said as dispassionately as possible.

    To begin with, here is a summation I put together in 2011... we'll add to it in a bit:

    Since all of this, Antony has been putting his energies into his "Natori Ryu" endeavour... ostensibly "recreating/reconstructing" Natori Ryu based on some documents he has come across, with the blessing of the last remaining descendant of the family (who was not the last... and who didn't give any certificate conferring authority... which Antony then backed up by showing the certificate they didn't give him...?), essentially by asking a 90 year old woman if he could try to put together the information of these old scrolls...

    This has taken the form of Antony basically making up a whole bunch of stuff, and passing it off as legitimate information... it's not. Much of the "martial arts" he shows is deeply flawed to the point of being dangerous... and his lack of affinity with the culture and language of Japan means that the non-martial information is also deeply flawed.

    Acknowledging that this forum has a "no fraud busting" clause... I offer the following (and the previous) in the interest of hearing out the criticisms against Cummins... I do advise putting in your own research if you can and are interested in this area:

    Antony Cummins is a FRAUD
    Antony Cummins is Dangerous - What can be done about this?
    Antony Cummins Cannot Teach

    Believe me when I say there is much more to say, but it does veer into personal and personality areas... which is valid in regards to his position as a "teacher" of any sort... but the simple facts of his history, I feel, should be enough to allow people to make a judgement as to whether you feel he is a reputable source for information.
     
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  10. now disabled

    now disabled Master Black Belt

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    I was being tongue in cheek saying what I did

    Can I ask what school of the sword did the Natori family he claims his well claims his I'm struggling for the word lol study ?

    I know zero of his background until you provided an insight but I did think it very strange how he has gone about things as would a family actually hand over a school to a westerner ?
     
  11. Chris Parker

    Chris Parker Grandmaster

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    Ha, yeah, I got that...

    None.

    The Natori Ryu is a later name attributed to what was known as the Kishu Ryu (this is linked in with the history of Togakure Ryu, as well as being linked to the Kii family affiliated with the Tokugawa)... and, while there is a biken (sword) syllabus for Togakure Ryu, the material Cummins is presenting is based in pretty much no actual training, skill, knowledge, or anything else... other than deeply flawed understandings and misinterpretations of some passages and comments in the scrolls. The links I provided cover much of that.

    Look at it this way... a 90-something year old woman is approached by a young Westerner who seems rather interested in her family and it's legacy (when there has been no interest shown previously), asking permission to use the family name to promote the legacy of her ancestors... she doesn't know him, good or bad, but knows that he's showing interest in something that no-one else is... and seems to have some "credibility", at least as far as he claims. She isn't "handing over" a school, as it doesn't exist anymore... she's just saying "yes, you can use the name for your work"... in a similar sense, Nakashima Atsumi, one of the early associates of Cummins (it was his modern Japanese translation of the original Shoninki text that Cummins' group was translating), a practitioner of a number of systems himself, went to a branch of the Katayama family to gain permission to re-establish Katayama Hoki Ryu Jujutsu, based on his other training and some scrolls he had purchased... the problem, of course, is that the Hoki Ryu Jujutsu wasn't actually extinct... they're not a fan of his work, to say the least...
     
  12. now disabled

    now disabled Master Black Belt

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    I get your meaning

    Thanks I'll read what you suggested
     
  13. jks9199

    jks9199 Administrator Staff Member

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    Antony Cummings is, at best, controversial. Even folks who disagree (sometimes vehemently) agree that he lacks any background to do what he claims. Personally, if you're going to claim to be a researcher, maybe you ought to be able to read and write the language the material is coming from...

    For a different source, you might look into what a gentleman by the name of Don Roley, who speaks Japanese fluently and spent many years in Japan, often serving as a primary English translator for Hatsumi and who has a few translations from Japanese under his belt, has to say... Rantings and Ravings
     
  14. Chris Parker

    Chris Parker Grandmaster

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    Small notes for clarification... no matter what I think of him, Antony does deserve the respect of getting his name right... it's Antony Cummins, not Anthony Cummings... by the same token, for those playing along at home, the correct spelling is "ninjutsu", rather than "ninjitsu"... there are reasons, but suffice to know that one is correct, the other, not.
     
  15. now disabled

    now disabled Master Black Belt

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    I do know that lol I mean the jutsu lol...his name I will leave to him lol

    Ok you quoted Hatsumi so I gotta ask your opinion (trying to be tactful ) does he hold the scrolls he has claimed and does the lineage stand up (Takematsu)
     
  16. Chris Parker

    Chris Parker Grandmaster

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    Hmm... tactful... ha, okay...

    Hatsumi has a very extensive library of many scrolls and documents pertaining to a huge number of schools, ryu-ha, and skill sets... however much of the documentation he received from Takamatsu that have been publicly shown appear to be from Takamatsu himself (in other words, not old documents). That's not really an issue... scrolls are written on paper, after all, and don't necessarily last forever... so it's not uncommon for documents to be newly written (or rewritten) for each generation... There have been claims and reports from certain factions that he has older documents pertaining to the schools he teaches, but for all intents and purposes, they are not publicly acknowledged.

    He also has a large collection of materials relating to schools he has no connection to... which has lead to certain claims being made which are, honestly, somewhat questionable... and this is not getting into the area of the validity of the scrolls we know of... but, as you said, tactful here...

    As far as the lineage and their claims, it's quite a complicated question... for one thing, we have 9 separate lineages being claimed... for another, it's been widely understood (and known, and accepted) that many of the lineage/historical claims are not historically accurate... even contradicting known and established Japanese history in places... and the only thing that can be said for absolute certainty is that Hatsumi did learn from Takamatsu, and was given the position of Soke for a number of lineages... exactly what those lineages are is another question...
     
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  17. now disabled

    now disabled Master Black Belt

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    Ok I get the meaning and your wording
     

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