Alternating Maces vs Calming the Storm

[Soulman]

Hi all,

I've been looking at these two techniques and have concluded that there is a relationship between the two. Ignoring the initial step-fowards / thrust punch/check with calming the storm, as I understand them I can see similarities as follows:

First move:
The initial inward block/downward hammerfist to the forearms in A.Ms.
The right inward hand-sword to the bicep to control opponent's width in C.T.S.

Second move:
Pivot to forward bow, with a left reverse vertical punch to the solar-plexus, right hand checking undernearth the left.

Final move:
Pivot back to right-neutral-bow.
Right-backfist to the head for A.Ms
Right-backfist to the ribs/kidney for C.T.S.

I guess that the motion is very similar between the two techniques, so my questions (and invitation to discussion) are:

what is the "master-key" technique from which these are derived?

what dictates the change in target for the final back-fist (i.e head vs ribs)...i.e. specifics of the techniques which require change of target?
I'm not really looking for the "well the extension follows after this so its a natural progression of motion", maybe something like the attacker's expected reaction after the backfist.

any tips / variations on how people perform these techniques?

am I reading things into the techniques which simply aren't there?

Cheers,
Soulman

 

[Dark Kenpo Lord]

Hi all,

I've been looking at these two techniques and have concluded that there is a relationship between the two. Ignoring the initial step-fowards / thrust punch/check with calming the storm, as I understand them I can see similarities as follows:

First move:
The initial inward block/downward hammerfist to the forearms in A.Ms.
The right inward hand-sword to the bicep to control opponent's width in C.T.S.

Second move:
Pivot to forward bow, with a left reverse vertical punch to the solar-plexus, right hand checking undernearth the left.

Final move:
Pivot back to right-neutral-bow.
Right-backfist to the head for A.Ms
Right-backfist to the ribs/kidney for C.T.S.

I guess that the motion is very similar between the two techniques, so my questions (and invitation to discussion) are:

what is the "master-key" technique from which these are derived?

what dictates the change in target for the final back-fist (i.e head vs ribs)...i.e. specifics of the techniques which require change of target?
I'm not really looking for the "well the extension follows after this so its a natural progression of motion", maybe something like the attacker's expected reaction after the backfist.

any tips / variations on how people perform these techniques?

am I reading things into the techniques which simply aren't there?

Cheers,
Soulman

Though the moves are very similar they are different in their application. One is on the outside of the arm (AM) with the other teaching the princple of attacking the centerline (CTS). The same could be said for Lone Kimono and Twin Kimono, very similar movement with completely different applications.

DarK LorD

 

[Soulman]

Though the moves are very similar they are different in their application. One is on the outside of the arm (AM) with the other teaching the princple of attacking the centerline (CTS). The same could be said for Lone Kimono and Twin Kimono, very similar movement with completely different applications.

DarK LorD

Hmmm OK I guess I'm going AM a bit differently then, my initial move for AM is a right-inward block which travels to my center line but continues down and hammers directly down onto both arms, hitting the attacker's right arm (near the bicep) with my hammer-fist.....no worries then....anyone else have variations on alternating maces?

You've got me interested though, could you give some more detail about the different applications of LK and TK...in particular the step-up-the-circle with TK, is this to gain a better target for the eventual right backfist...?

Cheers,
Soulman

 

[jfarnsworth]

Lone Kimono you have his back up weapon checked by stepping back with the elbow break/hyperextension. At this point the attacker should be on tip toes while checking his width zone. In Twin Kimono you need to move up the circle to move away from the back up weapon which would be the right punch. With both hands grabbing you can't get the same amount of leverage on the arms.

 

[Drifter]

I believe that the backfist to the ribs in CTS is because it is easier to to get the disarm going under the arm, versus going over the arm. Also, your hands seem to get tied up if you try to backfist to the head, and the left hand "waiter's hand" takes longer to get there to check the arm.

 

[bayonet]

Calming the Storm: the base move is so effective that most assailants will NOT be standing. Works under adrenal stress. But there are people who are some tough bastards, maybe possessed or high on ice, a real problem here in Hawaii. Great technique. One that we work on in every class. The nature of the attack of course is a club defense but can be used against a right hook or haymaker.

 

[Doc]

Hi all,

I've been looking at these two techniques and have concluded that there is a relationship between the two. Ignoring the initial step-fowards / thrust punch/check with calming the storm, as I understand them I can see similarities as follows:

First move:
The initial inward block/downward hammerfist to the forearms in A.Ms.
The right inward hand-sword to the bicep to control opponent's width in C.T.S.

Second move:
Pivot to forward bow, with a left reverse vertical punch to the solar-plexus, right hand checking undernearth the left.

Final move:
Pivot back to right-neutral-bow.
Right-backfist to the head for A.Ms
Right-backfist to the ribs/kidney for C.T.S.

I guess that the motion is very similar between the two techniques, so my questions (and invitation to discussion) are:

what is the "master-key" technique from which these are derived?

what dictates the change in target for the final back-fist (i.e head vs ribs)...i.e. specifics of the techniques which require change of target?
I'm not really looking for the "well the extension follows after this so its a natural progression of motion", maybe something like the attacker's expected reaction after the backfist.

any tips / variations on how people perform these techniques?

am I reading things into the techniques which simply aren't there?

Cheers,
Soulman

Just a thought, but when you say "controling width," from what you have written it appears you are only controlling width in one direction. In as much you are standing on the inside on his center line axis point, I suggest you consider his left hand follow to his right club attack unaccounted for. But like I said, just a thought.

 

[KENPOJOE]

Hi all,

I've been looking at these two techniques and have concluded that there is a relationship between the two. Ignoring the initial step-fowards / thrust punch/check with calming the storm, as I understand them I can see similarities as follows:

First move:
The initial inward block/downward hammerfist to the forearms in A.Ms.
The right inward hand-sword to the bicep to control opponent's width in C.T.S.

Second move:
Pivot to forward bow, with a left reverse vertical punch to the solar-plexus, right hand checking undernearth the left.

Final move:
Pivot back to right-neutral-bow.
Right-backfist to the head for A.Ms
Right-backfist to the ribs/kidney for C.T.S.

I guess that the motion is very similar between the two techniques, so my questions (and invitation to discussion) are:

what is the "master-key" technique from which these are derived?

what dictates the change in target for the final back-fist (i.e head vs ribs)...i.e. specifics of the techniques which require change of target?
I'm not really looking for the "well the extension follows after this so its a natural progression of motion", maybe something like the attacker's expected reaction after the backfist.

any tips / variations on how people perform these techniques?

am I reading things into the techniques which simply aren't there?

Cheers,
Soulman

Hi Folks!

ummm...i read this post and immediately I saw a couple of problems.
soulman states "First move:
The initial inward block/downward hammerfist to the forearms in A.Ms.
The right inward hand-sword to the bicep to control opponent's width in C.T.S."
First of all, there is no inward handsword to the bicep in "calming the storm" but there is one in "defying the storm", perhaps you are compounding the circular path after the initial right vertical thrust punch to the face in the first move that goes to the checking action in movement 2?
The "inward block/downward hammerfist" you are refering to in "alternating mace" is called a "downward horizontal forearm" in american kenpo venacular.

The second movement of the technique is a "master key move" as is the first move of both afore mentioned techniques. Because "calming the storm" is performed first in the EPAK syllabus, it is the master key technique from which the "family related technique" of "securing the storm" is formulated.

whether you strike with the back knuckle above or below the opponent's arm is an example of "upper case/lower case" whereas the opponent's attcking limb give us a choice of "Column A VS column B" as Mr. Parker would mention.
I hope that I was of some service,
KENPOJOE

 

[KENPOJOE]

Hmmm OK I guess I'm going AM a bit differently then, my initial move for AM is a right-inward block which travels to my center line but continues down and hammers directly down onto both arms, hitting the attacker's right arm (near the bicep) with my hammer-fist.....no worries then....anyone else have variations on alternating maces?

You've got me interested though, could you give some more detail about the different applications of LK and TK...in particular the step-up-the-circle with TK, is this to gain a better target for the eventual right backfist...?

Cheers,
Soulman

Hi Folks,
Soulman, the idea in "alternating maces" is to to have the initial inward blocking action redirect to close off the centerline as you collapse the forearm on top of BOTH forearms to check off the forward momentum and utilize the left vertical thrusting punch to the solar plexus to "borrow the force" of your uncoming opponent [i'm surprised you haven't mentioned the lead foot lead hand/rear foot rear hand relationship to the thrusting punches yet!]
I hope that I was of some service,
KENPOJOE

 

[Seabrook]

Hi Folks,
Soulman, the idea in "alternating maces" is to to have the initial inward blocking action redirect to close off the centerline as you collapse the forearm on top of BOTH forearms to check off the forward momentum and utilize the left vertical thrusting punch to the solar plexus to "borrow the force" of your uncoming opponent [i'm surprised you haven't mentioned the lead foot lead hand/rear foot rear hand relationship to the thrusting punches yet!]
I hope that I was of some service,
KENPOJOE

Hi Joe,

I hope all is well buddy. Just wondering - have you seen the way Larry Tatum teaches this technique? I like it a lot better. After the inward block, instead of collapsing the forearm on top of the opponent's arms, he simply does the left horizontal reverse punch underneath the opponent's arms (while the right hand checks over top) before finishing with the right backfist strike.

 

[TwistofFat]

Hi Joe,

I hope all is well buddy. Just wondering - have you seen the way Larry Tatum teaches this technique? I like it a lot better. After the inward block, instead of collapsing the forearm on top of the opponent's arms, he simply does the left horizontal reverse punch underneath the opponent's arms (while the right hand checks over top) before finishing with the right backfist strike.

SB - We have worked this both ways since lots of folks were getting their right back fist "tangled" threading under/over the left punch. I liked Mr. Planas' advice that if the flow takes his hands high, punch low and if his arms collapse punch to the sternum/throat. We played with right foot forward/left foot forward and many others.

Best of luck - Glenn.

 

[Seabrook]

SB - We have worked this both ways since lots of folks were getting their right back fist "tangled" threading under/over the left punch. I liked Mr. Planas' advice that if the flow takes his hands high, punch low and if his arms collapse punch to the sternum/throat. We played with right foot forward/left foot forward and many others.

Best of luck - Glenn.

Greats point about Alternating Maces Glenn.

For those that know the technique Detour from Doom, notice how it is similar in motion to such techniques as CALMING THE STORM (since that is one of our discussion techniques), Securing the Storm, and Entwined Lance.

 

[Bill Lear]

Greats point about Alternating Maces Glenn.

For those that know the technique Detour from Doom, notice how it is similar in motion to such techniques as CALMING THE STORM (since that is one of our discussion techniques), Securing the Storm, and Entwined Lance.

I would say that Five Swords has more in common with Calming The Storm than Detour From Doom.

In Detour From Doom your stepping up the circle and off of your opponent's line of attack. This positions you well beyond the apex of your opponent's roundhouse kick. (In other words, you'd be positioned well outside of the area in which his kick would have had maximum effect. On the downside of the circle.)

The idea in Five Swords and Calming The Storm is to step into your opponent's path of action. By doing this you engage your opponent's attack before it reaches the apex of the circlular path it is travelling on. (In both of these techniques you'd be inside of the circle and way too close for him to reach maximum power with his attack.)

The motion may be similar, but the ideas are totally different. :asian:

 

[Seabrook]

Agreed Billy....I was referring to the similarities in motion.

Jamie Seabrook

http://www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com

 

[Bill Lear]

Agreed Billy....I was referring to the similarities in motion.

Jamie Seabrook

http://www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com

I guess the similarity is relative to whether your discussing motion of the feet or the hands. :asian:

 

[Touch Of Death]

Hmmm OK I guess I'm going AM a bit differently then, my initial move for AM is a right-inward block which travels to my center line but continues down and hammers directly down onto both arms...anyone else have variations on alternating maces?


Cheers,
Soulman

I don't have a variation, so much, a different way of looking at the check after the inward block on AM. I look at it as an inward block followed by a dragging forarm thrust in reverse which pulls your opponent to your right and down as your body turns into a foward bow.
Sean
ps. there are only two techs in stand up kenpo. Outward or inward. A or B if you will. Each tech is only designed for one condition. Of course the application of each is different but your basic motion is either a or b , inward outward. You may further complicate the art by including high and low or inside or outside into your thinking but the blows either come down the middle or on either side of you... A or B.

 

[Soulman]

Well thanks for the replies everybody - sorry for not replying earlier, as I thought the thread had died. I think my original question probably wasn't helped by using confused terminology i.e. inward/downward hammer vs "downward horizontal forearm"...anyhow thanks for clearing that one up.

Regarding calming-the-storm, the reason I described it as having a hand-sword to the bicep is to control the opponent's upper body so that their torso is "square-on" to me as I execute the left reverse punch / brace...my understanding is that this presents a better target (angle of incidence?) as otherwise the attacker is still standing with one foot forward....and the punch would potentially skim off the body and wouldn't be as effective - I wouldn't be controlling the attacker's depth as well for instance.

Dr Chapel, you wrote:

Just a thought, but when you say "controling width," from what you have written it appears you are only controlling width in one direction. In as much you are standing on the inside on his center line axis point, I suggest you consider his left hand follow to his right club attack unaccounted for. But like I said, just a thought.

I didn't quite understand your words "controlling width in one direction"...or your use of the phrase "center line axis point"...is this another way of saying "aligned on the same center-line as the attacker?" It seems (unless I'm mistaken) that the other posters do not use this additional move I've described - the attacker's left hand does seem to be a problem if I control the body in this manner. I guess I've misinterpreted the purpose of this extra move - if it should be in this technique at all? Would you mind commenting on this please?

Thanks,
soulman