Snaking Talon

[Kenpoist]

This is my first thread - so I hope to get some good input!

I am looking to see what other applications are being taught for this technique to make it more practical and efficent.

The traditional technique starts out with your right hand looping in a figure eight to defend against a front 2 hand push (I find the figure eight to be time consuming). I have tried to vary the initial block with a two handed inward parry, but you now are grabbing the wrong hand, which defeats pulling your opponent off-center for the kick.

Next your right hand pulls down on opponets right wrist while we perform right front snap kick - (no issues on this one) -

After kick the technique calls for moving into front twist stance to set up for the two rear kicks (reverse chicken kick). I find that once we start the twist and attempt to perform first rear left back kick - you are now opening yourself to 1) blind technique and 2) potentially making yourself vulnerable in the twist (i.e. cross yourself up).

My best attempt with the kicks is to strike the knee with the first - thus dropping your opponents body and delivering the second kick to the ribs.

I would appreciate any insight and your comments.

 

[dubljay]

How much have you experimented with this technique... 10 times... 100 times... I found it awkward at first too, but soon was comfortable with the figure 8 pattern. The figure 8 is something you will see forever more, it becomes more apparent and used in techniqes to come.

I found that the reason the figure 8 was awkward for me was I was making the pattern too large. Close your circles a bit more. dont make it too wide otherwise you waste time by taking your hand too far from your opponents arms.

IMO if you do a double inward parry the technique becomes too much like snapping twig from purple belt (also for a push, though for a one handed attack) Try applying snapping twig to a left right punch combination while keeping the same body mechanics and see what you get. I spent about 3 hrs breaking this down analyzing snapping twig and came up with 2 variations.

Also having both hands out to do a parry violates the 180 rule. One hand must be 180 degrees from the other as a guard (i.e. one hand high the other low). This also applies to distance from the body. One hand is out, the other must be kept closer as a guard. It doesnt mean that the close hand is inactive or not engaged... but if both hands are out from the body they must travel back to protect against an attack.

-Josh-

PS welcome to the forum and happy posting.

 

[Seabrook]

The "snaking" part of the move aids in the torque for the heel palm break to the elbow and the simultaneous front kick to the groin. Also, when you grab the opponent's wrist and pull diagonally down, it cancels the attacker's height, width, and depth.

A lot of people do snaking talon without the arm break but I find that it helps counter-balance the front kick.


Jamie Seabrook
http://www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com/

 

[Shodan]

Hello and welcome!!

I learned this technique for punches- left followed by right straight or round punches towards the face. With the figure 8 one-arm parries, be sure to keep your right (parrying arm) elbow low, vertical and fairly close in to your body- it's not a huge movement- just enough to catch and redirect the punches. The first, we do from a right neutral bow, moving into a right cat stance with the second parry. As you re-direct the second parry, you grab the wrist (right to right) and pull it straight in and down to your right, weighting the opponent's front foot and delivering a right front kick to the mid-section. Right foot still in the air, you plant back towards 5:00 in a right front twist stance. Your right hand still grasps the opponent's wrist and now you match the direction of your right leg- pulling the wrist at a 45 and down as you move into your twist stance. Now, you immediately execute a right rear kick to the mid-section and cross out. I have seen the chicken kick variation but didn't originally learn it that way. It was executed just as you pull them down on the 45 and plant your right foot, you pick up your left foot (sort of a bounce-step motion) and hit their head (if it is there) with the bottom of your left foot before you then do the right back kick. Didn't have much luck with the chicken kick variation myself, but I have seen others be able to pull it off.

Hope that helps some.......sometimes a different version can be mixed with what you currently have to help out.

:asian: :karate:

 

[pete]

welcome fellow kenpoist...

snaking talon is a good one for a variety of applications, including the left/right combination, two hand push or two hand grab.

the descriptions given are all good, and i also agree with Seabrook to engage a left palm heel to the attackers right elbow... but, prior to the snap kick while pulling back into a transitional cat. it definitely works as a forward counter balance (yang) during the pull back (yin) action. also, it puts you in a good position to follow him in with a forward wrist press if he's able to retract his right arm back.

i also agree with shodan's emphasis on maintaining the hold on the right wrist as you go into the right twist. this allows you to pull him into or twist him further downward during the back kick.

as far as the back-chicken kick goes, there is no need for it if you retain his wrist and pull him in, but if you lose your grip, the chicken kick is there to divert his attention and open a clear target. try to practice it both ways, but shodan is correct... its pretty awkward to combine them.

i like to run a drill, using snaking talon and dart... dart, for those who don't know is a old technique against a left jab where you parry the left punch down with your right, check it with your left, as you continue to circle your right as you shuffle up with a right eye gouge. its a quick tech. anyways, if the left comes and there is no right punch coming (or you beat him), do dart. if the right punch comes in, continue the circle into snaking talon.

ohhh... another tip for the 'snaking' part, is to keep your elbow down and your wrist open. violating either of those will make the motion feel even more awkward and leave you open to getting yourself locked up! get the movement going from your belly.

good stuff...hope this helps a bit....

pete.

 

[Doc]

This is my first thread - so I hope to get some good input!

I am looking to see what other applications are being taught for this technique to make it more practical and efficent.

The traditional technique starts out with your right hand looping in a figure eight to defend against a front 2 hand push (I find the figure eight to be time consuming). I have tried to vary the initial block with a two handed inward parry, but you now are grabbing the wrong hand, which defeats pulling your opponent off-center for the kick.

Next your right hand pulls down on opponets right wrist while we perform right front snap kick - (no issues on this one) -

After kick the technique calls for moving into front twist stance to set up for the two rear kicks (reverse chicken kick). I find that once we start the twist and attempt to perform first rear left back kick - you are now opening yourself to 1) blind technique and 2) potentially making yourself vulnerable in the twist (i.e. cross yourself up).

My best attempt with the kicks is to strike the knee with the first - thus dropping your opponents body and delivering the second kick to the ribs.

I would appreciate any insight and your comments.

The back "chicken kick" is anatomically incorrect and should not be done. The extension of one leg while landing and supporting with the other will cause significant stress to the lower lumbar, and strains the hip flexors.

The more important question is why would you defend against an attacker, incapacitate him, then twist and turn away from him misaligning your body while still in contact with your attacker, and execute such an idiotic balance threatening, body twisting, stupid (my view) action.

But then again if you like it ...

 

[Ceicei]

I was under the impression with this technique the three kicks were: Left front kick, right side kick, and then left back kick. Does anyone else do Snaking Talon this way?

- Ceicei

 

[jfarnsworth]

Right front kick, Left back kick, Right back kick so as to be able to execute a right front crossover cover out.

 

[Kenpoist]

I appreciate the responses.

My current instructor has a different view of some of these techniques than my former instructor (EPAK) - whereas several techniques are modified from his experience in TRA-CO and Nin-Po. Though it has been over a decade since I trianed in Kenpo, I am happy to once again be training in Kenpo. I'll try the different suggestions and see what works best for me.

 

[rmcrobertson]

1. Uh...sorry, but while rear chicken kicks ain't my fave rave, they're not necessarily anatomically hopeless. part of the trick is NOT to "drum majorette," the kick...don't try to fire (never launch) the second kick with the first fully extended, but bring the first foot sharply back and down...in other words, treat it as two plain old back kicks rather than two fancy somethings.

2. The kicks may be modified. Try a "gauging step," with the left rear foot, assuming that the attacker retreats and crossing that gap with the left foot before you kick with your right.

3. Assume that the grab/dropping your weight yanked the attacker's head down; try a left heel kick to the face/right back kick and cover out...

4. #2 and # 3 represents opposite ends of a spectrum; it may be in between that you'll find yourself wanting to be.

5. I particularly hate the ending to this technique. Sigh. Guess some practice remains in order.

 

[Simon Curran]

I have also practiced the technique at a seminar against a left right combo (with Mr Planas), but I am in total agreement about the back chicken kick, I prefer to plant each foot in turn, and then have the advantage of one leg pushing my 220 lbs through the other leg into the opponent, I personally don't think hopping produces the same amount of penetration.

 

[Doc]

1. Uh...sorry, but while rear chicken kicks ain't my fave rave, they're not necessarily anatomically hopeless. part of the trick is NOT to "drum majorette," the kick...don't try to fire (never launch) the second kick with the first fully extended, but bring the first foot sharply back and down...in other words, treat it as two plain old back kicks rather than two fancy somethings.

2. The kicks may be modified. Try a "gauging step," with the left rear foot, assuming that the attacker retreats and crossing that gap with the left foot before you kick with your right.

3. Assume that the grab/dropping your weight yanked the attacker's head down; try a left heel kick to the face/right back kick and cover out...

4. #2 and # 3 represents opposite ends of a spectrum; it may be in between that you'll find yourself wanting to be.

5. I particularly hate the ending to this technique. Sigh. Guess some practice remains in order.

The chicken kick by definition requires that the second kick be launched while the first is extended. Anything else is simply "two kicks." Done as a "chicken kick" to the rear they are anatomically incorrect, although to the front is acceptable. This "kick" was created by Jim Mitchell in an effort to create a 3rd kicking set that was all "chicken kicks" to the front, side, and rear. Ultimately it was rejected by Mr. Parker although some still use it.

 

[Brother John]

The chicken kick by definition requires that the second kick be launched while the first is extended. Anything else is simply "two kicks." Done as a "chicken kick" to the rear they are anatomically incorrect, although to the front is acceptable. This "kick" was created by Jim Mitchell in an effort to create a 3rd kicking set that was all "chicken kicks" to the front, side, and rear. Ultimately it was rejected by Mr. Parker although some still use it.

Thank you for the insight Mr. Chapel!! Very interesting to know the history.
I'm glad I was NEVER asked to do that kick. I could see how it'd be 'incorrect'.

Your Brother
John

 

[rmcrobertson]

Well, I kinda hate this kinda response, but I learned the kick that way from Mr. Tatum and my own first teacher, who...oh, never mind. I also happen to know one of Jim Mitchell's students pretty well; I'll ask him. But in brief, I'd suggest that the folks I learned the kick from pretty much know what they're doing.

More to the point, I agree that the 2nd kick has to be started as the second's still off the ground, if it's a chicken kick; I'm just saying that the first foot should be back and headed straight down before the second kick's thrown, because a) with the first leg extended, the second kick doesn't seem very strong; b) with the first leg extended, the second kick does indeed seem an anatomical mess...at least from what my back says to me, when I try it that way. I know that other styles throw those kicks other ways, but...

I can't seem to get Kicking Set 2 though my head, so I'm not qualified to comment in detail...but the problem certainly wasn't the rear kicks being a strain on my back. I might also note that the front kicks are frequently done by students, in my more-limited experience, with precisely the "drum majorette," problem that I mentioned.

I'd also note that the way I described the kicks seems to help with a) taking the opponent off-balance; b) getting the idea of the gauging step down; c) getting the idea of modifying the chicken kick, so that a heel to the face can be followed by a full-on back-kick.

 

[Kenpoist]

Ref the cross over - I do it is a nature of habit from my previous Parker only training. My current instructor has a broader style back ground (Ninjitsu etc) and is working on my changing the cross over to a switch out stance or drag step - something different.
His experience is if you get a good fighter as your opponent - they can tie you up as your crossing your feet. If the attacker is already on the ground - than a cross over is good.

Your thoughts?

 

[Doc]

One of the biggest area of confusion in martial arts "basics" is a true understanding of the methodologies and body mechanics associated with kicking.

For many years "teachers" with no true understanding of human body mechanics have taught "basics" as they understand them. Many of these ideas are culturally based as much as they are just misunderstandings of how the body functions.

A true teacher must facilitate methods that are not only effective, but at the same time, do not impose a significant risk of damaging the body in their execution. Most teachers have no clue, not because they don't want to, but because their education has been limited in most instances to a teacher who simply passed along what he was taught, or who himself made modifications with no regard to what long term effect it might have on the human body.

Some of the "best" kickers have all had significant problems from improper kicks. Most of those problems manifest themselves with hip and knee problems. The Grandmaster of Hapkido at the time was the by far the best kicker I had ever seen in my life, Sea Oh Choi. I watched him teach Bruce Lee how to kick. The last time I saw him he was on crutches from double hip replacement surgery. Bill Wallace, Chuck Norris, Gene and George Takahashi all had hip replacement surgery. From Kenpo my good friend Mr. Bob Liles one of kenpos great kickers even today and a Kenpo Senior, and Brian Hawkins have also had hip replacement surgery along with a host of others with additional hip and knee problems.

None of these gentlemen set out to injure themselves intentionally kicking improperly. Over time improper body mechanics will catch up with you and all of these teachers are/were effective kickers.

Its not just the martial arts. In western sports immediate effectiveness is often promoted over long term health benefits. Boxing, baseball pitching, kick boxing, football, even bowling can present significant physical problems over time for short term success. The opposite spectrum presents basketball shooting, swimming, and other hand eye coordination and body activities that demand proper mechanics that present no negative long term effects. Funny how over the course of a lifetime a basketball player can shoot tens of thousands of jump shots with no shoulder problems.

The martial arts in the western hemisphere is still quite young and its commercial appeal has produced a host of "teachers" who profess to be experts in body mechanics with no background to make such claims other than what they themselves were taught. My nephews strength and fitness coach when he was playing football at U-Dub got him to the Rosebowl and and a ring, but he was teaching an incorrect methodology for the bench press, that I recently changed. My brother has had three shoulder surgeries doing the same thing. It never occurred to any of them it was the methodology that caused the problem because what they were dong was working.

For kicks, I had a simple way of looking at it. I didn't do any kicks that Parker didn't do. He told me which kicks were bad for the body and I believed him as others believe their teachers. My hips and knees are almost sixty and still work pretty well I'm told. So in my estimate the key is not who taught you, or even whether what you do at the moment is effective, but for how long. Just a thought ... let's just say if you insist, you're in pretty good company with some other pretty prominent people who turned out through no fault of their own, to be wrong. But then again if you really like it ...

 

[rmcrobertson]

I insist.

And I insist because, done the way I describe them, the rear kicks don't seem to be a problem--and I'm on the high side of fifty. And what I described certainly wasn't mindlessly sticking your feet out there. And I was taught rather carefully to think about long-term effects....including those of hyperextending one's knee, landing on a stiffened leg, and stomping the mat. And I was taught that good form not only helps generate power (one of my objections to the sloppy chicken kick, front or back, is the lack of power), but protects the kicker.

And, in fairness, I wasn't taught to pound out four zillion of these things a day.

And in fact, the way I described the kicks in the technique open up other options that straightforward chicken kicks.

 

[Michael Billings]

I practice this technique against both as a push and against the boxer's L. jab-R. Cross combination.

As I retreat from the 1st punch, I execute more of a inward-downward handsword, only my hand is curled in to have a different angle of incidence (and the arm is very relaxed and "heavy") which usually causes their left arm to drop "dead", and appears to have a significant 1st strike pain check.

Then stepping off line from the right-cross by continuing into the cat stance, I do all sorts of variations, contingent on the exact attack and position of the opponent and his arm. My favorite is probably the "creating of a target" following my first "parry" or "strike." By leading their right punch toward my face with my arm postions checking other areas (open ended triangle with left hand high and right at about sternum high, I am able to do almost a Protecting Fans outward parry, with my right momentarily hooking/checking his arm such that a break occurs as my right arm does the outward parry, which I angle toward 5:30 slightly, to strike at the nerves directly above the elbow.

(I spent to many years knocking his right arm away (inward handsword-outward handsword), or entangling his arms (snaking), so although I do teach those, my preferred is above, hurting him with every touch.)

I then fall into the pattern as most people do it, checking height and width by striking the elbow as I rotate their arm for the most efficient angle, while pulling and kicking to the groin, or inside of the leg.

I do "twist", but as I do this, I pull his hand in, still checking width, and position his hand against my hip as I rotate, (which puts mucho pressure against the wrist), and if I do it correctly it breaks the wrist, and opens the body for the spinning rear kick. If I miss this I check or "throw" their arm down and at an angle which prevents their reorbiting the left toward me.

Although I do remember and like Kicking Set #2, I think all chicken kicks are about Range, at least for me, so I utilize it as a gauging step, if needed, for the second kick (usually not needed as they are seldom within any kind of range for me to do a second back kick after I do a spinning back kick).

I am not pretending this is the IDEAL, nor is it what I initially teach. But once you have the basics, I open the door for WHAT-IF's, and for me, a more destructive version.

-Michael

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

Being that I can't get out of bed and start my day without a handful of Advil for my low back, hips, and knees, I'm apt to side with Doc on the anatomical alignment bandwagon. I've mentioned before that someone needs to revisit the basics with an eye towards efficient biomechanics. Much of what is repeated from one generation of instructors to the next is the anatomical version of "urban legend". I see it in the gym; I see it in the studios.

Just because one or more oldsters do it that way, doesn't mean it's a good thing to do. Asking your body to do movements that FEEL awkward, especially if it's a move you've done many times before and it still don't feel right, means you're in violation of simple neurological warning signs your body gives you.

Hand on stove = pain? It's your body screaming, "Stop what you're doing! It's bad for you". In that case, we have the collective sense to pick the hand up off the stove. But what if the insult is more subtle? Small, grating or grinding injuries that don't cause searing pain, but certainly send small messages that "What you're doing ain't right: Stop it."

A bumper bender is less dramatic than an embassy explosion. I have patients from both ends of the extreme, and they all bear the consequences of insults and injuries in their bodies, visible on plain film x-ray, and traceable back to specific events. CTD's, or "cumulative trauma disorders", are those that come not from a single dramatic/traumatic event, but rather from multiple exposures to minor, barely detectable insults and injuries. With the passage of time, they add up, and create disabilities as real as those created by having a pallette of cement bags dropped on your head.

I encourage you to follow your hearts, even if they are misinformed. That way, when you're walking with the assistance of orthopaedic devices, at least you will feel in congruence with your own beliefs. And that kind of internal consistency helps as a salve to get through those sleepless nights, caused by pain, brought on by poor mechanics in motion.

Regards,

Dave.

 

[rmcrobertson]

I quite agree. But I am also saying that these chicken kicks, the way I was taught them, sure don't seem to be a strain on my back or hip at all....which the "drum majorette versions damn sure are. And, they open up the range of possibilities for the technique.

Incidentally, these rear kicks are elsewhere in the base system; for example, if memory serves, there's the two-man technique "Parting of the Snakes."