Aikido hate

[Tony Dismukes]

Just ran across this and thought I'd post it.

I don't really care so much about the results of the experiment (which are about what I would expect). What I really liked was the friendly, humble, and respectful attitude both martial artists brought to the encounter. In my opinion, that's how it should be done.

 

[Hanzou]

Just ran across this and thought I'd post it.

I don't really care so much about the results of the experiment (which are about what I would expect). What I really liked was the friendly, humble, and respectful attitude both martial artists brought to the encounter. In my opinion, that's how it should be done.

That's been my experience with Aikido as well. Good to finally see something like this on video.

 

[drop bear]

Just ran across this and thought I'd post it.

I don't really care so much about the results of the experiment (which are about what I would expect). What I really liked was the friendly, humble, and respectful attitude both martial artists brought to the encounter. In my opinion, that's how it should be done.

I would have loved to have seen an armlock competition. Because I still think successfully using Aikido is in the setup.

And sparring is where it gets developed.

See the MMA guy play the role of the Aikido guy.

 

[Paul_D]

"Aikido is not meant for this situation". This situation being sports fighting. So whilst this tells us what we already know, a lot of the hate seems to because it doesn't function in this situation. Which raises the question, why hate something for not being able to function in a situation it is not designed to function in?

 

[drop bear]

"Aikido is not meant for this situation". This situation being sports fighting. So whilst this tells us what we already know, a lot of the hate seems to because it doesn't function in this situation. Which raises the question, why hate something for not being able to function in a situation it is not designed to function in?

That was actually representative of a really slow mugging. You need to learn the difference between a consensual fight and self defence.

 

[Hanzou]

"Aikido is not meant for this situation". This situation being sports fighting. So whilst this tells us what we already know, a lot of the hate seems to because it doesn't function in this situation. Which raises the question, why hate something for not being able to function in a situation it is not designed to function in?

So you're saying that if someone is (politely) punching, kicking, and/or tackling you Aikido won't work?

If Aikido doesn't function in a safe environment where your attacker is being easy on you, and you know what's coming, how are we supposed to believe that it functions in a chaotic environment where your attacker isn't playing nice, and you have no idea what's coming?

 

[kuniggety]

That was a pretty cool video in that both practitioners were humble. It would be interesting if they would've repeated it with clothes that the aikidoist could grab and maybe stuck to open hand slaps instead of gloves.

 

[Hanzou]

That was a pretty cool video in that both practitioners were humble. It would be interesting if they would've repeated it with clothes that the aikidoist could grab and maybe stuck to open hand slaps instead of gloves.

I liked that the MMA guy pointed out that the Aikido guy wasn't used to taking punches, or being punched, so he began making bigger and bigger mistakes. Additionally his take down defense was non-existent, leaving him wide open to getting taken down and being dominated.

I'm really against the concept that certain arts are only made to fight against people who can't fight. What if your attacker CAN fight? Are you suddenly screwed? Wouldn't you be better off learning a style that CAN counter people who can fight?

 

[kuniggety]

I liked that the MMA guy pointed out that the Aikido guy wasn't used to taking punches, or being punched, so he began making bigger and bigger mistakes. Additionally his take down defense was non-existent, leaving him wide open to getting taken down and being dominated.

I'm really against the concept that certain arts are only made to fight against people who can't fight. What if your attacker CAN fight? Are you suddenly screwed? Wouldn't you be better off learning a style that CAN counter people who can fight?

Agreed but I think in the end it boils down to what your goals are for training the art which the aikidoist mentioned at the end. Personally I'd be a little upset if I trained a martial art for so long and then got man handled so bad but I know from the start that I want to know how to control a fight from my MA training.

 

[Hanzou]

Agreed but I think in the end it boils down to what your goals are for training the art which the aikidoist mentioned at the end. Personally I'd be a little upset if I trained a martial art for so long and then got man handled so bad but I know from the start that I want to know how to control a fight from my MA training.

If I were training in Aikido (much less an instructor in Aikido), I would want to be able to perform my techniques against an aggressive attacker regardless of their personal level of training.

The fact that he was completely shut down is pretty concerning. I can understand maybe doing it for the cultural and spiritual aspect, but I can't help but believe the majority of people practicing Aikido want to be able to protect themselves in the unlikely event some MMA-trained goon attacks them.

 

[Steve]

I think it would be really interestingand healthy if that aikido guy were to continue to spar with that Mma guy. I think his aikido would improve dramatically, and possibly evolve as he lets some unrealistic techniques go. Mma guy would learn some things, too, probably.

 

[drop bear]

Agreed but I think in the end it boils down to what your goals are for training the art which the aikidoist mentioned at the end. Personally I'd be a little upset if I trained a martial art for so long and then got man handled so bad but I know from the start that I want to know how to control a fight from my MA training.

Well. Sort of. If the MMA guy is legitimately good. He would have done that anyway. Regardless of style. I get manhandled by MMA guys and I do MMA.

But you just take the loss and use it as a key to unlock the secret of making your martial art functional.

Aikido guy has a whole bunch of stuff he can refine up. Take it back to the lab and see if he is progressing forwards.

 

[drop bear]

I think it would be really interestingand healthy if that aikido guy were to continue to spar with that Mma guy. I think his aikido would improve dramatically, and possibly evolve as he lets some unrealistic techniques go. Mma guy would learn some things, too, probably.

You have to be functional at fighting before you can figure out if your martial arts works.

 

[Paul_D]

So you're saying that if someone is (politely) punching, kicking, and/or tackling you Aikido won't work?

I'm not saying that.

If Aikido doesn't function in a safe environment where your attacker is being easy on you, and you know what's coming, how are we supposed to believe that it functions in a chaotic environment where your attacker isn't playing nice, and you have no idea what's coming?

To clarify, what environment would this be?

 

[Hanzou]

This video reminds me of a quote from Roy Dean; A prominent instructor of Aikido and Bjj;

Below Quote comes from:
http://www.slideyfoot.com/2011/05/dv...-roy-dean.html

"I generally take issue with the aikido I’ve learned, seen, and come in contact with being advertised as self-defense. Although there are aspects and techniques of aikido that I believe can be gleaned and added to your martial arsenal (i.e. footwork for getting off the line, blending with an overcommitted attack, etc.), I could never recommend it to somebody who wanted to learn self-defense. Not only is there too much silence about what works and what doesn’t, the non-competitive training method doesn’t put students in pressure situations similar enough to real confrontations, breeding a false sense of security in students through tacit affirmations such as:

1) It may take 20 years, but this stuff will work if you just keep practicing.

2) Don’t worry about strength, since physical conditioning isn’t that important.

3) These exercises we’re doing are how attacks really are.

4) If it’s not working, you’re not using your center.

5) Keep extending that ki to keep him at bay!

It’s not fair to your students to misrepresent what your art is capable of. If your average aikido student rolled with a judo or Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu player, or got in the ring with a boxer or kickboxer, he wouldn’t know what to do with that kind of intensity. He’d simply be overwhelmed. I’ve seen this point debated through letters to the editor in Aikido Today Magazine, but there’s only one way to find out. Do it. To paraphrase Bruce Lee, you can’t learn to swim unless you get wet, so how can you learn how to fight without fighting?" - Roy Dean

 

[O'Malley]

Just ran across this and thought I'd post it.

I don't really care so much about the results of the experiment (which are about what I would expect). What I really liked was the friendly, humble, and respectful attitude both martial artists brought to the encounter. In my opinion, that's how it should be done.

Props to both of them for their attitude! I also liked that the MMA guy let the aikidoist express himself in the ring.

I'm not sure how qualified I'd be to criticize given that I'm still a newbie in aikido and that even in "kata form" I can't do the techniques well but here are some things that popped in my mind while watching this:

1) the gloves the MMA guy is wearing would make wrist locks more complicated to do, so it would be a poor tactical choice to try nikkyo or kote gaeshi, for example.

2) why no irimi? (entering)
I mean, every aikido authority stresses the idea that entering and blending are fundamental principles of the art, we apply irimi in like every technique but here Rokas doesn't look like he's trying to enter. It looks like he's trying to keep his partner at bay and grab his wrist if he ever gets the chance. Why practice techniques where you enter and blend with the attack if when you're in the ring you don't use those principles? As drop bear said, there's a problem with the setup.

I liked that the MMA guy pointed out that the Aikido guy wasn't used to taking punches, or being punched, so he began making bigger and bigger mistakes. Additionally his take down defense was non-existent, leaving him wide open to getting taken down and being dominated.

Something I've been thinking about on the lack of takedown defenses in modern aikido is that sumo was more commonly practiced at the time of the founder. Thus it is possible that takedowns and takedown defences (sprawling seems to be a very basic tactic in sumo) were well known back then. After all, it is likely that the sumo wrestlers that O'Sensei fought against have tried to take him down so he must have found some way to deal with those attempts.

I'm really against the concept that certain arts are only made to fight against people who can't fight. What if your attacker CAN fight? Are you suddenly screwed? Wouldn't you be better off learning a style that CAN counter people who can fight?

I agree. And I don't know where this excuse is coming from because the founder and a lot of high ranked teachers fought against people who could fight. Here are two posts from Ellis Amdur on Aikiweb:

"This is an interesting question, really. I just reread Douglas Walker's translation - three parts - on the life of Shirata Rinjiro. And a large part of that was taryu-shiai [fighting other styles]. And in another interview, published by Chris Li on the Sangenkai site, Kuroiwa Yoshio tells how all the uchi-deshi in the 1950's trained to take on dojo challenges, Kuroiwa's intention (besides boxing) being a koshinage dropping the guy on his head. I was at Kuroiwa sensei's house when a yakuza boss came to pay his respects, something he did once a year in memory of being dumped four times with that koshinage when Kuroiwa interrupted the yakuza (Momose, a 4th dan amateur sumo) from breaking up a friends dojo.
There was, in fact, (and probably still is) one or two deshi who are the designated minders of the school, and they handle any dojo challenges in the Aikikai.
It is fair to say that the ring has rules different from a free-fight, but if you flinch from blows in the ring, you will in the street.
Shirata sensei emphasized that beyond technique, irimi was the crucial element requisite to manage an assaultive individual. The young man in the video was back on his heels the entire time - he was catching - or trying to - attacks.
One of my most powerful aikido memories was the first time I took ukemi for Chiba Kazuo - his entry was so powerful that I was destabilized from that point on and never recovered. HIs technique, at that time, I thought was not that high a level (an observation of films over the years shows he continued to develop and refine his skill almost until his death, fwiw). but it was irrelevant, because his irimi was the most explosive and powerful I think I've ever experience in aikido. It is fair to say that Ueshiba Morihei's aikido, tori attacked. These days tori/nage - receives and then techniques. That's very different."

"Shoji Nishio around 1984 - "Right from the start, the value of a Budo is determined by comparisons with other Budo.For the most part, if you set up Kokyu-ho between two Aikido people it's just useless. That will only be effective in the dojo...Even in other Budo, everybody is working hard, you know. When we see that we should make an effort to surpass them with our Aiki. That is the mission of Aikido as a Budo.""

"I generally take issue with the aikido I’ve learned, seen, and come in contact with being advertised as self-defense. Although there are aspects and techniques of aikido that I believe can be gleaned and added to your martial arsenal (i.e. footwork for getting off the line, blending with an overcommitted attack, etc.), I could never recommend it to somebody who wanted to learn self-defense. Not only is there too much silence about what works and what doesn’t, the non-competitive training method doesn’t put students in pressure situations similar enough to real confrontations, breeding a false sense of security in students through tacit affirmations such as:

1) It may take 20 years, but this stuff will work if you just keep practicing.

2) Don’t worry about strength, since physical conditioning isn’t that important.

3) These exercises we’re doing are how attacks really are.

4) If it’s not working, you’re not using your center.

5) Keep extending that ki to keep him at bay!

It’s not fair to your students to misrepresent what your art is capable of. If your average aikido student rolled with a judo or Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu player, or got in the ring with a boxer or kickboxer, he wouldn’t know what to do with that kind of intensity. He’d simply be overwhelmed. I’ve seen this point debated through letters to the editor in Aikido Today Magazine, but there’s only one way to find out. Do it. To paraphrase Bruce Lee, you can’t learn to swim unless you get wet, so how can you learn how to fight without fighting?" - Roy Dean

Well, I don't think that the lack of competition is to blame here. More like the lack of intensity and aliveness in training. In other words, the lack of an "honest" attacker.

The Daito ryu guys and the aikido old timers never competed but they were nonetheless fearsome fighters.

Having honest and intense randori might be a solution to re-discover effectiveness without having to forsake O'Sensei's non competitive ideal.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

2) why no irimi? (entering)
I mean, every aikido authority stresses the idea that entering and blending are fundamental principles of the art, we apply irimi in like every technique but here Rokas doesn't look like he's trying to enter. It looks like he's trying to keep his partner at bay and grab his wrist if he ever gets the chance. Why practice techniques where you enter and blend with the attack if when you're in the ring you don't use those principles? As drop bear said, there's a problem with the setup.

Probably because it's psychologically hard to perform a committed entry against non-telegraphed combination attacks if you aren't used to seeing them come at you. The Aikidoin probably knew intellectually what he needed to do but he just didn't have the sparring experience to comfortably pull the trigger, so to speak. It's one thing to perform good irimi against a single stylized overcommitted attack which is telegraphed from eight feet away. It's quite another to perform it against someone stalking you down with deceptive combination attacks and the worry that you are going to be walking into a punch when you enter.

It would be interesting to see what the Aikido guy could manage if he devoted some months to getting comfortable in that environment with those sorts of attacks coming at him.

 

[JP3]

Just ran across this and thought I'd post it.

I don't really care so much about the results of the experiment (which are about what I would expect). What I really liked was the friendly, humble, and respectful attitude both martial artists brought to the encounter. In my opinion, that's how it should be done.

Good video. I've a bunch of disjointed thoughts I'll just drop a few of them and see how it goes.

I've seen that guy's aikido videos on youtube before, and he's a good presenter on the videos of the aikido, a good face for the art.

What is his name, anyway? The aikido guy?

The aikidoka's been in aikido 13 years, and been a "professional" teacher for 5 years.... That means he became a pro teacher (meaning he charges is all) after 8 years of training. I'm not going to say that's a bit early for him (his manner is very good, he should be a doctor with that bedside manner, but for me it would be.

Aikido guy said he did a bit of BJJ, and by a bit it appeared that he took a class. Singular.

Combat is its own animal, it is difficult to train for unless you are actually doing it.

The weakness of aikido is movement... if you stop the aikido person from moving, you're almost home. If you let him keep moving and you stop, you lose.

Nobody is prepared to be punched in the nose.

Traps are difficult to do with any gloves on, even the MMA ones. Shoot, traps are just difficult to do, period. Doing them at distance to a guy who is actively trying to both hit you and get his hands and arms back, well nigh impossible. Closer up, easier, but closer means more potential for loss of situation control, i.e. get your butt kicked.

The aikido guy suffers from the self-referencing loop problem which now-deceased Sensei Geis talked about. If all you train with are your own people, and they know when they are supposed to fall, you are referencing your own success and inserting that reference into your reality, supporting your own position with your own set of perceived facts. I texas-style dumb this down to bottom shelf as "You are believing your own bullsh*t."

Going into the lab like this is really Required for Any martial artist who wants to check the efficacy of what they do. Everyone needs to really check, to find out, and know. Some people have found out because of what they do every day, which is their lab. Those of us who don't have to deal with that, need to seek out a safe situation in which to... check themselves before they wreck themselves.

 

[JP3]

It would be interesting to see what the Aikido guy could manage if he devoted some months to getting comfortable in that environment with those sorts of attacks coming at him.

I agree. Is his name Rokas? I'll go with it, sounds close enough. Rokas was on his heels in principle for the whole engagement, and in reality for most of it. He had an understanding of what the MMA guy was going to do, logically, but not intrinsically. He's obviously watched MMA fights, so he's aware that he's going to be punched, taken down, etc... but he admits he has not ever trained in, therefore against, such attacks.

In the short time of the video you can see how he's learning and adapting. The beginning of this process is a very steep learning curve, so that's not surprising. A lot of aikido "art" is pretty to look at, and it's nifty in demonstration mode, but there are things which simply are not needed and end up being unnecessary fluff,and could be downright dangerous, if you tried to take them with you in your fight toolbox.

Personally, I'd recommend that Rokas intentionally do what I did accidentally and go, if he really is interested in closing the whole in his art, to a Muay Thai gym for a few months. Stockpile that knowledge (another steep learning curve is the MT gym), and then go do some BJJ. Train in BJJ for at least a month of regular training (yet another steep learning curve), and while you won't be able to tap anyone other than a first day in class person, you'll have a much deeper understanding of what it is that the BJJ guy is going to try to do to you, and the MT you took will still be "in residence."

 

[Gerry Seymour]

So you're saying that if someone is (politely) punching, kicking, and/or tackling you Aikido won't work?

If Aikido doesn't function in a safe environment where your attacker is being easy on you, and you know what's coming, how are we supposed to believe that it functions in a chaotic environment where your attacker isn't playing nice, and you have no idea what's coming?

Actually, that soft, "polite" punching is more problematic than someone going for it. There's no commitment of weight (unnecessary at that speed), and Ueshiba's Aikido depends heavily upon that, from what I've seen. They also work so far out that they can't make effective use of a clean clinch.