Aikido hate

[Gerry Seymour]

Yeah but you can still fall into the same traps if you train in the same manner.

You can, but it's less likely you'll train in the same manner if you're using strikes and acknowledging the non-aiki versions of the techniques. You can't practice the latter if you only have a compliant uke - to practice them well, you need someone who is actually trying to stop you. And folks who have advanced experience in another art (and training style) will usually put each other to the test more often, by their nature. They can fall into a mutual-admiration loop and get into bad habits, but it's unlikely since at least some of them are likely to want to see how the new stuff works against their old stuff. And the attacks would almost certainly be better.

 

[Chris Parker]

We learned in another thread that aikidoka is a senior student. Aikidoist is more correct.

This thread. Not another. And, despite all the continued posts, the answer was given earlier as well. The preferred term in Japanese for a non-senior (experienced) practitioner of Aikido is Aikido-in. Okay? For reference, I think it was about page 11 or so.

 

[CB Jones]

This thread. Not another. And, despite all the continued posts, the answer was given earlier as well. The preferred term in Japanese for a non-senior (experienced) practitioner of Aikido is Aikido-in. Okay? For reference, I think it was about page 11 or so.

Ok but I think we are leaning more towards using the name Aiki-Dokeys

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Ok but I think we are leaning more towards using the name Aiki-Dokeys

And for those who do Aikido with a bad attitude: Aiki-Donkeys.

 

[drop bear]

You can, but it's less likely you'll train in the same manner if you're using strikes and acknowledging the non-aiki versions of the techniques. You can't practice the latter if you only have a compliant uke - to practice them well, you need someone who is actually trying to stop you. And folks who have advanced experience in another art (and training style) will usually put each other to the test more often, by their nature. They can fall into a mutual-admiration loop and get into bad habits, but it's unlikely since at least some of them are likely to want to see how the new stuff works against their old stuff. And the attacks would almost certainly be better.

you would be suprised I think. Very few people get manhandled by another style and not have a fleet of excuses ready to rationalise that.

Where was it? Double leg defence using Aikido principles? Because using double leg defence principles would be silly wouldn't it.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

you would be suprised I think. Very few people get manhandled by another style and not have a fleet of excuses ready to rationalise that.

Where was it? Double leg defence using Aikido principles? Because using double leg defence principles would be silly wouldn't it.

Oh, I do understand that people will find excuses. But it's harder to maintain those excuses when the manhandling is by another student in the same class. Eventually, you get tired of it and start actually solving the problem. Or you quit.

Of course, if the person already has skill, they will be able to fill many holes with that pre-existing skill, and the Aikido becomes a supplement, another range of options in their toolbox.

(I'm not sure what that last bit is about.)

 

[drop bear]

Oh, I do understand that people will find excuses. But it's harder to maintain those excuses when the manhandling is by another student in the same class. Eventually, you get tired of it and start actually solving the problem. Or you quit.

Of course, if the person already has skill, they will be able to fill many holes with that pre-existing skill, and the Aikido becomes a supplement, another range of options in their toolbox.

(I'm not sure what that last bit is about.)

The last bit is an example of the first bit. When exposed to the double leg take down. The solution was not to acknowledge the technique or find a defence. But to deal with a different technique.

Which I just realized is a physical example of a strawman.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

The last bit is an example of the first bit. When exposed to the double leg take down. The solution was not to acknowledge the technique or find a defence. But to deal with a different technique.

Which I just realized is a physical example of a strawman.

That would be a physical example of a strawman, indeed. That's a nice observation. It's something we can all fall into when we try to build a defense against something we don't know how to do. I see that done by grappling instructors teaching defense against strikes, striking instructors teaching defense against grappling, standing arts teaching defense against the mount, etc. Sometimes they're just doing the best they can (we all do that), and sometimes they need to go learn a bit more about the attack before they try. And, of course, when you learn about the attack from someone who knows it, you can also learn how they counter it, and adapt those principles (like you said, double-leg principles).

 

[FriedRice]

Asia is actually a pretty big place, I lived in Japan and China. I would say my language skill is not to bad. Speaking from a martial art perspective, I can not think of to many teachers or students in those countries who go in to specifically fight or learn to fight to cause harm. Spiritual side well depends on how much or to degree spiritual. A lot of classical styles have deities and talk about 气。 so again, your experience doesn't match my experience in Japan or China

Experience in Aikido. I don't think they fight anywhere in the world nor history, with the exception of Steven Seagal vs. Kelly LeBrock.

 

[oaktree]

Experience in Aikido. I don't think they fight anywhere in the world nor history, with the exception of Steven Seagal vs. Kelly LeBrock.

Wow I haven't heard from you in a while thought you got hit by a bus

 

[FriedRice]

Wow I haven't heard from you in a while thought you got hit by a bus

Really, or was it because "someone" snitched on me to the moderators and they banned me for a few weeks? And the infraction was referenced to a post that I specifically made towards you.

 

[oaktree]

Really, or was it because "someone" snitched on me to the moderators and they banned me for a few weeks? And the infraction was referenced to a post that I specifically made towards you.

Well l don't recall contacting the mods in references to you.

 

[JP3]

This thread. Not another. And, despite all the continued posts, the answer was given earlier as well. The preferred term in Japanese for a non-senior (experienced) practitioner of Aikido is Aikido-in. Okay? For reference, I think it was about page 11 or so.

Ack. Bringing up the Japanese. Who does that? I mean, I'm not Japanese, I didn't learn from a Japanese. We don't have anyone Japanese in our classes or any I've been to recently. I'm not even learning anything Japanese.

Wait... I may need to revise that last bit.

Seriously though... just because Japanese some Japanese nomenclature reflects this aikido-in, or even aikidoists, I may be wrong if I go to Japan and speaking my Texan-version wordplay.... I prefer aikidoka. Why would I not? I give the first day white belt in judo the... uh... title? Honorific? of Judoka as soon as they've lived through their first class, why not the aikido person? Seems separists and class-based to me... sort of like the... uh... hmm... I'll stop.

 

[JP3]

The last bit is an example of the first bit. When exposed to the double leg take down. The solution was not to acknowledge the technique or find a defence. But to deal with a different technique.

Which I just realized is a physical example of a strawman.

The last bit is an example of the first bit. When exposed to the double leg take down. The solution was not to acknowledge the technique or find a defence. But to deal with a different technique.

Which I just realized is a physical example of a strawman.

Couldn't I use my "aikido principles" that are cross genre to deal with a double-leg? Lots of it is the same stuff I've got from judo, hapkido, etc? Or, is that the issue? The cross genre nature of those principles, e.g. "Get offline," and so forth?

 

[drop bear]

Couldn't I use my "aikido principles" that are cross genre to deal with a double-leg? Lots of it is the same stuff I've got from judo, hapkido, etc? Or, is that the issue? The cross genre nature of those principles, e.g. "Get offline," and so forth?

Not unless they are coincidencentially the same as the double leg defences anyway.

It depends what you are trying to do. Uphold the values of your system or not wind up on your butt.

Going off line should do stuff all unless they are miles away. Sort of. You sprawl off line anyway. But if you think you can just dodge one then probably not.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Not unless they are coincidencentially the same as the double leg defences anyway.

It depends what you are trying to do. Uphold the values of your system or not wind up on your butt.

Going off line should do stuff all unless they are miles away. Sort of. You sprawl off line anyway. But if you think you can just dodge one then probably not.

I think a sprawl fits within the confines of aikido principles, though on the outer edges (as some aikijujutsu and NGA techniques do). A sprawl is a sutemi waza (sacrifice technique), because you give up mobility and base to move your legs away and bring weight onto the attacker. It avoids the intent and energy of the attack, so is an odd form of blending, and it lets the attacker come in so we can redirect him (downward). I see nothing at odds with aikido principles, though the movement is quite different from standard aikido/aikijujutsu techniques.

 

[JP3]

Getting offline is a 3D concept, keep that in mind, Drop. I have, as I'm certain you also have, been able to simply dodge someone's double-leg when they: A) are too slow; B) have bad technique; or C) don't know what they are doing (see A and B). You're right though, get too close to someone whose got a really good one and just stepping out of it probably isn't going to work. So, I think I'm right, which means you're right.

Gerry, I've not noticed the words Double Leg Takedown on any USJA posters lately. Sutemi-waza indeed. There you go, using Japanese again. Sheesh... Japanese Japanes Japanese. I mean really. It's not like I'm doing one of my nifty ukemi/falling techniques while linked to a guy to cause him to fall down on his back or anything. I'm diving on my face while intentionally shoving my head and houlders into his gut so he gets pasted.

Completely, totally, absolutely, indisputably, irreconcilably different.

 

[drop bear]

I think a sprawl fits within the confines of aikido principles, though on the outer edges (as some aikijujutsu and NGA techniques do). A sprawl is a sutemi waza (sacrifice technique), because you give up mobility and base to move your legs away and bring weight onto the attacker. It avoids the intent and energy of the attack, so is an odd form of blending, and it lets the attacker come in so we can redirect him (downward). I see nothing at odds with aikido principles, though the movement is quite different from standard aikido/aikijujutsu techniques.

Depends what you consider a base. Surfing on top of a dude is still a base. Possibly more important.

But my point is that if you are constantly fixated on whether a technique adheres to your principles you miss the Forrest for the trees.

Techniques can do whatever they want. Your principles are a reflection of what works. Not the other way around. Because that is dogma.

The word goes around the sun. Like it or not.

 

[JP3]

Depends what you consider a base. Surfing on top of a dude is still a base. Possibly more important.

But my point is that if you are constantly fixated on whether a technique adheres to your principles you miss the Forrest for the trees.

Techniques can do whatever they want. Your principles are a reflection of what works. Not the other way around. Because that is dogma.

The word goes around the sun. Like it or not.

OK, on this we disagree Drop. Techniques work, because they fit within certain principles. In my experience, if my posture is better than the other guy's, and my structure is better than the other guy's, then physics (the ultimate principle set) takes over and I win. Doesn't matter if I'm entering for a shoulder throw, or escaping a double-leg shoot, or countering an inside blast from a Kenpo guy. If I stay in my principles,a nd I break him out of his, I win.

Granted, simple to say, not easy to do.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Depends what you consider a base. Surfing on top of a dude is still a base. Possibly more important.

But my point is that if you are constantly fixated on whether a technique adheres to your principles you miss the Forrest for the trees.

Techniques can do whatever they want. Your principles are a reflection of what works. Not the other way around. Because that is dogma.

The word goes around the sun. Like it or not.

The principles of an art are what make it easier for the casual person to learn new techniques. Where possible, it's preferable to add things that fit within that framework. If there are significant gaps that can't be filled that way, then the framework needs an adjustment. So, no, it's not dogma. Dogma would be like, "Either that fits the principles of the art, or it's wrong." Properly using a foundation of principles is more like, "That looks useful, and it fits the principles of the art, so it's easy to include and can easily become core. This other thing looks useful, but doesn't fit within the principles. I should find something that works as well and fits the principles, or figure out what's wrong with the principles."

By "base", I mean a standing base. The term is used differently in arts that like the ground. The principle of the base is similar to what you're likely used to (I assume that to be something similar to the BJJ usage), except that we're specifically targeting remaining standing, so we'd refer to going to the ground as "sacrificing base". And sacrificing base is actually a principle we work with, so something like a sprawl fits nicely.

I assume there are other ways to defeat a double-leg. I know some that work when the attacker messes up (assuming you can recognize what the opportunity is), but variations of a sprawl are pretty much my entire response to a well-played double-leg.