Aikido hate

[Steve]

Urban Dictionary: Wapanese

Watch J-Pop America Fun Time Now!: Anna Faris from Saturday Night Live on NBC.com

Hehehehe...ooooh.

 

[JP3]

Disagree. The effectiveness is a consequence of not only the martial artist, but also the Art(s) and the Coaching(s). All three, affects the outcome. This is why most people who aspire to become UFC fighters, don't join Aikido schools.

Disagree. The effectiveness is a consequence of not only the martial artist, but also the Art(s) and the Coaching(s). All three, affects the outcome. This is why most people who aspire to become UFC fighters, don't join Aikido schools.

Really? I thought it was because they couldn't earn a living any other way.

I find myself torn all the time with your posts, FR. You go along with some good logic, and then, Wham! In with the early-20s "my style is the best" schtick all over again. I'm down witht he combination of art, artist and instructor being the combining factors on an individual's efficacy. No problem. Then treating all aikido people to the left-handed, red-haired stepchild backhand. it illuminates a hole in your learning about the MA world as a whole. You live out west.

I am curious, why is it that you need to have MMA as a "thing"in and of itself, be the "best thing?" You invest money in a school or something? You in--training for the beginning bouts to try to climb the ladder? If so, power to you. Just not the road for me, and for most. I'd rather go to court.

 

[JP3]

[i think this logic is a little flawed. I'll try to explain. This guy has learned an armbar. I think it's terrible technique. But it kind of, sort of resembles an armbar.

If he sees someone on "the street" execute an armbar, according to the logic in this thread and your post, he could use that as validation that his training is sound. After all, he learned it. And it seems like he's teaching it.

I see a real problem there. Dont you?

Steve, I think you may be mistaking my idea on nomenclature as being a comment on quality or validity. An armbar is an armbar, rose is a rose, round kick is a round kick.

Grandmaster Hee Il Choi's round kick is light years better than mine, and mine somewhat better than someone who has never done one, but I can go teach that person for 20 minutes and they will be doing a "round kick." It is a round kick, because i understand it to be a round kick, and when I say, "OK, show the Grandmaster the round kick you just learned..." Student will attempt said round kick, and Grandmaster will be pleased with student and disappointed in me. THe fact that the person goes home and says "I learned a round kick today!" to his friend or family, shows it off, and then that person tries it and does a horrible one, does not mean that what I do is any worse. The quality of said technique is a totally different issue. At least to me.

What someone chooses to "think" is not up to me. They may think as you stated, Steve, but in my opinion that is neither my fault nor a correct assumption/conclusion on their part. In my opinion, the person ought to go get some more classes, perhaps a few hundred hours worth, working with BJJ, judo, aikido, hapkido whichever joint-locker and bone-breaker crew with real skill, and then we'd take a look at it and say, "Man! Your arm bars are a lot better! What you been doing?"

And everyone will know... he was working on an "arm bar." So, I think my point is valid.

 

[Paul_D]

Could it be that most people who aspires to be UFC fighters don't join Aikido schools because Aikido isn't designed to score points in sporting competitions?

 

[JP3]

Are you that scared of MMA gyms? There are women & children training there too you know, maybe you can ask to train with them only.

C'mon man... just because someone doesn't go to an MMA gym doesn't mean they are afraid to go. He explained why he doesn't want to go, and I can see his point. Well, now that I see 50 and it's within the low beams... maybe I should say fog lamps on the seeing the 50...

About 5 years ago there was a MMA club just off of NASA Road 1, in Webster (suburb of Houston). I trained there with another of my old judo buddies. A guy who I've been trading throws with for about ten years. Cool guy.

Thing is... his MMA gym was exactly like that. Yes there were girls training there, but there were also freaked out mongoloid knuckleheads who really were not there to learn, they were just there to fight. Austin and I (the guys's name was Austin) had to educate a few. Nothing mean, just a gentle (we thought) redirection out of a combat mode and into a learning mode. Translated, we whipped them and they looked around with that WTF expression on their face... it only changed when we offered to show them what they were doing wrong. I teach all the time, and in the day I was a knucklehead too, so I recognize the breeding. Not everyone has the patience, desire whatever you want to call it to just put up with that environment. It does not make them bad people, nor does it make what they do ineffective.

 

[JP3]

The problem, of course, is if you learn and train junk technique, then you have junk technique.
The solution - don't learn and train junk technique.

Buka, truth teller once again.

 

[JP3]

One of the main reasons for the Akido hate, is probably due to Akidokas making wild claims about their capabilities, especially the street vs. sport training argument...how they're so "realistic", etc. while sports fighting, ie. MMA are not.

Shoot. Again. Agreed.

 

[JP3]

I'm willing to bet he's got a pretty good eye for these things.

Thanks for the vote of confidence, but I wasn't actually commenting on Steve's media at all, more's the pity. But, nope I'd be shaking my head and wanting to walk over and fix things with it... but it's internet stuff, and therefore the chances of it to be mostly garbage are probably in excess of 9:1 (or 90%).

 

[Steve]

Steve, I think you may be mistaking my idea on nomenclature as being a comment on quality or validity. An armbar is an armbar, rose is a rose, round kick is a round kick.

Grandmaster Hee Il Choi's round kick is light years better than mine, and mine somewhat better than someone who has never done one, but I can go teach that person for 20 minutes and they will be doing a "round kick." It is a round kick, because i understand it to be a round kick, and when I say, "OK, show the Grandmaster the round kick you just learned..." Student will attempt said round kick, and Grandmaster will be pleased with student and disappointed in me. THe fact that the person goes home and says "I learned a round kick today!" to his friend or family, shows it off, and then that person tries it and does a horrible one, does not mean that what I do is any worse. The quality of said technique is a totally different issue. At least to me.

What someone chooses to "think" is not up to me. They may think as you stated, Steve, but in my opinion that is neither my fault nor a correct assumption/conclusion on their part. In my opinion, the person ought to go get some more classes, perhaps a few hundred hours worth, working with BJJ, judo, aikido, hapkido whichever joint-locker and bone-breaker crew with real skill, and then we'd take a look at it and say, "Man! Your arm bars are a lot better! What you been doing?"

And everyone will know... he was working on an "arm bar." So, I think my point is valid.

I'm really speaking to how your comment regarding nomenclature is being used to imply validity by association. Many aikidoists acknowledge that there is a troubling gap between knowledge and application in that style. what someone thinks isn't up to you, but certainly, when you dismiss the crucial distinction between how a hapkidoist trains and how an aikidoist trains, you're creating a false impression that is entirely up to you.

in your example, what is happening is like if you (not your student) are using an example of a savate practitioner effectively applying a roundhouse kick, and Intentionally conflating the two styles. "Hey, that's a roundhouse kick, and so he's doing what we do! Yay us!"

And not just you. Others are doing this now, too. I haven't seen this tactic before, and it just doesn't work for me. It's specious.

 

[drop bear]

Could it be that most people who aspires to be UFC fighters don't join Aikido schools because Aikido isn't designed to score points in sporting competitions?

No.

Where Aikido works it would score points. You aikido threw someone in a UFC fight. That would assist you towards winning.

If you Aikido side kicked someone it would score points.

I mean just looking at the side kick. The only reason you would choose one method over another is that it is more likley to work or more likley to do damage.

Nothing to do with scoring points in a sporting environment.

 

[jobo]

No.

Where Aikido works it would score points. You aikido threw someone in a UFC fight. That would assist you towards winning.

If you Aikido side kicked someone it would score points.

I mean just looking at the side kick. The only reason you would choose one method over another is that it is more likley to work or more likley to do damage.

Nothing to do with scoring points in a sporting environment.

maybe its phylosopicaly unsuitable to take in to ufc . any one who masters aikidio would then not want to take part in bararic blood sport for the enjoyment of a baying crowd. TMA can grow you emotionally as well as physically

 

[drop bear]

maybe its phylosopicaly unsuitable to take in to ufc . any one who masters aikidio would then not want to take part in bararic blood sport for the enjoyment of a baying crowd. TMA can grow you emotionally as well as physically

Pretty sure Aikido isn't a cult. Where mastery requires you to think in an approved manner.

That would be a damn scary prospect if true.

 

[Buka]

Grandmaster Hee Il Choi's round kick is light years better than mine,

I've never seen or experienced your kick, of course. But trust me, it ain't.

That's right, I said it.

 

[O'Malley]

Pretty sure Aikido isn't a cult. Where mastery requires you to think in an approved manner.

That would be a damn scary prospect if true.

It's not, but the philosophical and technical aspects are somewhat intertwined. To really make aikido "work" you have to learn not to resist your opponent's strength but to redirect it while connecting his center to yours and moving as one. It kind of makes sense that once you start to "get" the principles of an art that revolves around non opposition, you're usually not that interested in entering competitions anymore.

I think that nowadays most aikidoka that could actually use their art in MMA are too busy training aikido. It's a really rich art and they must be more interested in pushing their limits in aikido than in trying to transition into MMA. Dissing aikido because we don't see it in MMA would be like saying that water-polo players suck at handball since they never play handball competitively (even though some things transition really well).

That said, there was a time where some aikidoka were feistier and they had to fight for a reason or another. The founder certainly did fight with all kinds of martial artists (judo champions, pro boxers and whatnot), Gozo Shioda did a "fighting journey" and Tadashi Abe had to pave the way for aikido in a France fond of judo and its "combat effectiveness". But then, times were rougher and those guys used to swing at each other with live blades in the dark.

 

[oaktree]

Haha, none of this is true?

I lived over 8 years in Asia and I'm Asian. How long have you lived there, trained there and which languages do you speak, fluently?

Asia is actually a pretty big place, I lived in Japan and China. I would say my language skill is not to bad. Speaking from a martial art perspective, I can not think of to many teachers or students in those countries who go in to specifically fight or learn to fight to cause harm. Spiritual side well depends on how much or to degree spiritual. A lot of classical styles have deities and talk about 气。 so again, your experience doesn't match my experience in Japan or China

 

[oaktree]

To add a little bit more, If we look at classical Japanese arts for example such as Koryu we will see a great influence of religious idealism. Katori Shinto ryu the sword school I practice has many such things.
It is almost impossible to remove 三宝(精气神） from Chinese martial arts I would say the idea is there even in Japanese arts.

When I was interviewed on why I wanted to practice Koryu arts my answer was a long the lines of improvement of character, most people do not get into classical styles to learn to fight persay more because they are interested in the art for what it is.

 

[jobo]

It's not, but the philosophical and technical aspects are somewhat intertwined. To really make aikido "work" you have to learn not to resist your opponent's strength but to redirect it while connecting his center to yours and moving as one. It kind of makes sense that once you start to "get" the principles of an art that revolves around non opposition, you're usually not that interested in entering competitions anymore.

I think that nowadays most aikidoka that could actually use their art in MMA are too busy training aikido. It's a really rich art and they must be more interested in pushing their limits in aikido than in trying to transition into MMA. Dissing aikido because we don't see it in MMA would be like saying that water-polo players suck at handball since they never play handball competitively (even though some things transition really well).

That said, there was a time where some aikidoka were feistier and they had to fight for a reason or another. The founder certainly did fight with all kinds of martial artists (judo champions, pro boxers and whatnot), Gozo Shioda did a "fighting journey" and Tadashi Abe had to pave the way for aikido in a France fond of judo and its "combat effectiveness". But then, times were rougher and those guys used to swing at each other with live blades in the dark.

agree. The people who keep trotting out the, if your art is any good why isn't it featured in the UFC. Seem to miss out on a few sailient facts, this being that apart from the skill involved. UFC fighter need to like hurting people, or if they don't actually like it, they are prepared to do so for money.
People who have dedicated themselves to mastery of a TMA, have most likely done so for physical and psychological betterment , with the benefit that they can defend themselves and their loved ones if attacked.
The two outlooks are not really compatible. UFC is mindless violence for money, TMA is about personal growth

 

[Jenna]

Could it be that most people who aspires to be UFC fighters don't join Aikido schools because Aikido isn't designed to score points in sporting competitions?

100% exactly so.. you understand this quite simply.. you can say why other people have no space in their outlook to appreciate such an idea??? Is because they do not comprehend this utter fundamental of Aikido and conflate the intents of their own systems with some universal intent of all MA that it causes all of this hot air.. anyway.. while they are bitching I have been out and stolen their cars from the lot which are now in containers on their way to buyers in the middle east

 

[O'Malley]

agree. The people who keep trotting out the, if your art is any good why isn't it featured in the UFC. Seem to miss out on a few sailient facts, this being that apart from the skill involved. UFC fighter need to like hurting people, or if they don't actually like it, they are prepared to do so for money.
People who have dedicated themselves to mastery of a TMA, have most likely done so for physical and psychological betterment , with the benefit that they can defend themselves and their loved ones if attacked.
The two outlooks are not really compatible. UFC is mindless violence for money, TMA is about personal growth

I think that it is a very narrow-minded view of MMA.

 

[jobo]

I think that it is a very narrow-minded view of MMA.

I said Ufc rather than mma, mma could be something as great a bjj, or it could be people who like hurting others but but don't even want paying as they will do it for free