Aikido: Confronting a Crisis

[JowGaWolf]

He provides people with 'proof' that Aikido does not work.

My guess is that most people who train think that he didn't get s good foundation training for function. He seems to lack understanding of some universal concepts. The concept of influencing your opponent's attack seem to be unknown to him. If the technique requires me to grab my opponent's wrist then I have to influence my opponent's attacks so that I can get the attack that I need vs the random attack that I get when my opponent chooses.

An opponent will come to you if you give him the opportunity to do so.

 

[JowGaWolf]

He provides people with proof that he isn’t very good at aikido. That’s ok. Aikido isn’t a good match for him. He does not need to do aikido. There are plenty of other things I am sure he can become moderately good at.

I think his sparring partners see that as well but they don't say it. Sometimes zi see it on their face when they talk about AIKIDO

 

[Hot Lunch]

My guess is that most people who train think that he didn't get s good foundation training for function. He seems to lack understanding of some universal concepts. The concept of influencing your opponent's attack seem to be unknown to him. If the technique requires me to grab my opponent's wrist then I have to influence my opponent's attacks so that I can get the attack that I need vs the random attack that I get when my opponent chooses.

An opponent will come to you if you give him the opportunity to do so.

Yet this doesn't seem to be a problem for him in BJJ.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Yet this doesn't seem to be a problem for him in BJJ.

Because when he trains bjj in sparring he's using BJJ. when he trains grappling should be trying to use Aikido. If he spends 20 hours grappling only 30 minutes is spent trying to use Aikido . While the numbers are an example the training difference is real.

His approach to applying Aikido is the same as it was before he got into BJJ. Had he spent 20 hours trying to use Aikido then that entry to chase his opponents wrist wouldn't exist. He spent 5 years training BJJ. How much of that training time was spent trying to use only Aikido? I would say less than 40 hours. If that much.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

It's as if Aikido fell into this sort of trap. "Let's go to the tape".

By using "the way of harmony". If you want me to go to the east, I should not go to the west. That's the opposite of "resistance".

So, by doing harmony, you will only give your opponent a chance to train "how to borrow force". You will never give your opponent a chance to train "how to take advantage on your resistance."

In other words, by using "the way of harmony", you have only trained 1/2 of the combat situation.

Aikido has the same issue as the Taiji has. If you train Taiji and not using force, you also just train 1/2 of the combat situation - yield, borrow force, follow, stick, ....

IMO, it makes no sense to talk about harmony, fight without fighting, self-cultivation, inner peace, culture learning, be a better person, ... when discussing combat.

 

[drop bear]

I still cannot fathom what anybody would pay attention to Rokas. He is not a leader in Aikido. The guys who really dedicated their lives to it and became really good, some of whom trained directly with the founder, people like Robert Nadeau sensei in San Francisco, are the people who inspired me about aikido. I never found the time to train with him, but watching his class some 25 or more years ago is what made me know I wanted to give it a go someday.

Rokas? By comparison he is a Johnny-come-lately who never amounted to anything. Why would anyone look to him?

Is there a video of Robert Nadeu pressure testing his system?

 

[JowGaWolf]

By using "the way of harmony". If you want me to go to the east, I should not go to the west. That's the opposite of "resistance".

So, by doing harmony, you will only give your opponent a chance to train "how to borrow force". You will never give your opponent a chance to train "how to take advantage on your resistance."

In other words, by using "the way of harmony", you have only trained 1/2 of the combat situation.

Aikido has the same issue as the Taiji has. If you train Taiji and not using force, you also just train 1/2 of the combat situation - yield, borrow force, follow, stick, ....

IMO, it makes no sense to talk about harmony, fight without fighting, self-cultivation, inner peace, culture learning, be a better person, ... when discussing combat.

I wonder if the word harmony is taken out of context. If I were to use the word, It would simply mean that I'm not trying to force my technique. Instead, I'm leading you to the technique that I want to apply. For example, If I want to kick under a punch, I'm not trying to force the kick under random punches. I must first lead you to use a lead hand jab so that I can kick under it. The way I position my stance is what draws the punch out. To me this is harmony.

If I were to apply a wrist lock, then I would need to do the same thing. I guess you can say that I don't want to fight your resistance, I want to encourage it. So, if I need my opponent to resist by grabbing then I want to be in harmony with that and encourage the grab. In my mind this would be harmony. Even if I were to go on the offensive. I would want my opponent to resist in a way that would be in harmony with the technique I would like to apply.

In BJJ, this could be someone resisting by standing tall instead of someone resisting by standing low.in their stance. The way that you explain harmony is more like "Flowing" If I'm trying to force a technique then I'm not flowing. I'm literally going against someone trying to defend my specific attack. Flowing to me would be more like water running through an opening. Harmony would be more like me helping my opponent to resist but in a way that's not beneficial to them.

BJJ does this often. They influence your resistance and encourage you to resist in a way that is not beneficial to you. With BJJ understand how they want you to resist and then don't resist that way lol. They don't try to stop your resistance, they encourage it.

If my technique requires that you keep your arm straight then I want to encourage you to keep it straight by pretending that I want it bent. If my technique requires that you keep your hand on my chest then I want to make sure that it stays there. So I encourage you to keep it there by pretending that I want to move it. Which is good because I can use that same movement to seize the hand. What is views as a struggle is actually a trap.

 

[JowGaWolf]

The main purpose of budo is not just self-defense, but also personal development and growth.

This is where people shoot themselves in the face. I don't know why so many martial arts schools think that training self-defense is independent of personal development and growth.

Can you honestly train self-defense and not get personal development and growth? Schools speak of self-defense as if it's naturally void of personal development and growth. Stuff like that drives me nuts because it makes things seem more than what it really is and gives people the ideal that self-development and growth can't be achieved by punching someone in the face.

I just don't get it. Sparring helps to promote self-development and growth. It requires that one manages their anger, frustration, and failures. It helps to promote focus and relieve stress. This is a true statement about sparring. How does something go through that and not develop as an individual? How does someone go through that and not grow?

You know what makes a tree strong? Resistance and adjusting to cope with that resistance.
You know what makes a tree weak? Hydroponics lol.


You know what makes people feel at peace. Security, and the knowledge that if something got physical that they will have the skills to ensure their safety.

I'm off my soap box now. lol

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

They don't try to stop your resistance, they encourage it.

Maybe we are talking about the something. But I'm not too sure.

1. You want your opponent to resist.
2. You can then take advantage on it.

2 is easy to achieve. If you opponent intends to

- bend his arm, you help him to bend his arm even more.
- straight his arm, you help him to straight his arm even more.
- raise up, you help him to raise up even more.
- sink down, you help him to sink down even more.
- ...

To achieve 1, you can either wait for that to happen, or you can try to make it to happen. If you try to make it to happen, how will you do that? IMO, you have to give before you can take.

Does Aikido give before taking?

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

You know what makes people feel at peace. Security,

This is why I try to promote the

- rhino guard,
- double circles guard, and
- Chinese zombie arms guard.

If I have confidence to block the first 20 punches that my opponent throws toward my head, I'll feel secure and peace.

I cannot think about anything in MA training that can be more important than to protect your head from punches.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Is there a video of Robert Nadeu pressure testing his system?

Here's an interview. He mentions some of the things that I mentioned earlier. He seems very down to earth about Aikido here. A bit to spiritual for me on some of his videos but I think, I get it. A lot of what he describes seems more like how Athletes "get in the zone."

I don't know if he sparred or not but some of the things, he says are some of the same things I've learned through sparring. From the little bit that I watched from videos it seems that at the very least he has worked against resisting partners. To be honest I don't think one can flow without experiencing resistance. I can't learn to learn to feel the change in flow without resistance.

When I do push hands, My goal is to detect resistance and to hide resistance at the same time. But either way, it can't just be one person yielding all the time.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

People can choose whatever they want. But In times of wide access to various hight quality services, the demand for aikido is less than it used to be.
This is the source of the aikido crisis

I think the issue is a lot of folks used to lump all “martial arts” into the same group. They’re learning there are a lot of groups within that category.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Okay, but I'm just asking questions about the selling points, and how they compete with the other available options. And IF finding another selling point would be better. What can't be argued is that aikido is on the decline, as pointed out in the article. So what are they going to do about it? Because what they're doing now isn't working.

You asked rhetorical questions. That’s clear because you also answered them.

The metric is specific optimization. Is mind/body/spirit what aikido was designed for? With the availability of yoga, tai chi, etc; how does aikido compete? Note: this isn't a rhetorical question, I'm actually curious about the answer.

So, if an art is intended for self-defense, it is automatically better at that than any art not so designed? It should be obvious that’s flawed logic at both ends.

And on top of that, that’s not a metric. There’s no measuring involved- just a subjective assumption.

As for your question - I have no idea, and I don’t think you do, either.

To someone who sees two aikidoka performing, but has never previously heard of aikido or know what it is, they could see it as a dance. The movements are certainly graceful enough. In the highly improbable scenario that there's an aikido dojo in a metro area where ballroom dancing is not, would you say that someone interested in ballroom dancing wouldn't be more likely to be interested in aikido than other people in town after seeing a demonstration (assuming that such a person is no more interested in martial arts than the average person in that community)?

So, somehow a ballroom dancer’s interest in Aikido has something to do with its worth?? Where are you wandering to with this line of reasoning?

And you also seem to now be saying Aikido is reasonable dance - you seemed to be arguing the opposite last time.

I'm not trying to yuck anyone else's yum. I'm simply questioning the selling points of aikido, and whether or not another one needs to be established.

Except it was you who decided to include dance, using it as a derogatory comparison - and I’ve never seen an Aikdo school offer dance as a selling point. Your post doesn’t read as an attempt to inquire, but an attempt to stir things up.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Was Aikido ever on the incline? I don't think it's ever been very popular in terms of numbers. That's probably why it's considered esoteric.

It's kind of a jujutsu tangent, and there are so many, and very few of them became what I'd consider a popular art, like Judo. Aikido will keep getting compared to Judo forever, for obvious reasons.

I don’t know the numbers, but it’s my impression Aikido doesn’t have the membership it once did, so I think “decline” might be fair.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

There is no aikido crisis. Doomsday preachers have existed for centuries.

While I think membership has declined, it does still seem to be doing relatively well, compared to more esoteric arts.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I never said that.

I honestly can’t figure out what I was responding to in that post. I’m going to claim temporary illiteracy.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

By using "the way of harmony". If you want me to go to the east, I should not go to the west. That's the opposite of "resistance".

So, by doing harmony, you will only give your opponent a chance to train "how to borrow force". You will never give your opponent a chance to train "how to take advantage on your resistance."

In other words, by using "the way of harmony", you have only trained 1/2 of the combat situation.

Aikido has the same issue as the Taiji has. If you train Taiji and not using force, you also just train 1/2 of the combat situation - yield, borrow force, follow, stick, ....

IMO, it makes no sense to talk about harmony, fight without fighting, self-cultivation, inner peace, culture learning, be a better person, ... when discussing combat.

IMO, this is a misunderstanding of the use of “harmony” in that phrase. Interestingly, there are folks in Aikido who have a similar misunderstanding.

 

[Oily Dragon]

I don’t know the numbers, but it’s my impression Aikido doesn’t have the membership it once did, so I think “decline” might be fair.

I made a joke earlier in this or one of the other Aikido threads about how it all went downhill when we lost Seagal to the Russians. I stand by that.

I don't know if the numbers even matter.

I can think of a lot of TMA that are kind of low population, but still of great interest and always will be. Hung Ga doesn't have anywhere near the #s karate has, but there is just as rich a background there, and centuries of competition. Many will try, few will go far.

Just like Aikido, but the problem is the lack of a flag bearer. Who is that for Aikido? Once it was Steven Seagal, internationally. At least it was something.

 

[Flying Crane]

Yet this doesn't seem to be a problem for him in BJJ.

He should do BJJ if he gets better results that way. Nothing wrong with that.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

IMO, this is a misunderstanding of the use of “harmony” in that phrase. Interestingly, there are folks in Aikido who have a similar misunderstanding

I don't think the following are considered as "harmony".

By using a

- groin kick to set up a face punch.
- jab to set up a hook.
- shoulder lock to set up an elbow lock.
- hip throw to set up an inner hook.
- ...

You give first (groin kick, jab, shoulder lock, hip throw, ...). You then take afterward (face punch, hook, elbow lock, inner hook, ...)