Age of a Master

[FasterthanDeath]

Would you second guess a Grandmaster of an art or master of an art because of his/her age? Why? Here in Texas I have been laughed at, turned down and slandered because of my age and what I teach. I am 23 yrs old. And have been practicing CMA my whole life. The question is not what I know, or if I can use it, just my age. My age is used to base the other two questions. Please, your replies.

 

[RHD]

Would you second guess a Grandmaster of an art or master of an art because of his/her age? Why? Here in Texas I have been laughed at, turned down and slandered because of my age and what I teach. I am 23 yrs old. And have been practicing CMA my whole life. The question is not what I know, or if I can use it, just my age. My age is used to base the other two questions. Please, your replies.

It depends on what you do and how much you've done it. Are you at age 23 calling yourself a grandmaster? Is your CMA experience real hands on experience? Or is it forms training? Read the thread on Yee Chuan Tao.
Mike

 

[Michael Billings]

Unfortunatly the title of Master implies a maturity level, which is seldom seen in 23 year olds who have not had extensive experience in military combat. And NO, I was not mature enough to be a "Master" at 23, regardless of the years training. Part of it is the label itself, implying mastery, not just over one's self or material, but of other more undefinable character traits.

Hey, I don't care if you call yourself a master, just don't expect to get the respect of those who have been doing the Art for 40 or 50 years and still do not consider themselves the master, but the eternal student.

Oss,
-Michael

 

[arnisandyz]

Sounds like the "young Lion". Although you possess the physical skills, some may say you haven't had enough time on this earth to temper it and develop your skills spiritually and mentally to be a leader.

I wouldn't be so caught up in calling yourself Master or Grandmaster, just share your knowledge, learn from exeriences and live life. Before you know it, others may be referring to you as Master out of there own cognizance (of course you may be 60 years old by then!)

 

[Matt Stone]

Begin calling someone with great skill and many years of training and teaching "master" the day after he or she dies...

And even then, do so in isolated instances. "That person was my teacher" should be the highest compliment. With that degree of respect, the title "master" is as unnecessary as wings on pigs...

All titles do is serve the ego, and by the time someone deserves the title "master" they long ago outgrew the need for it.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Anyone can call themselves master. It is different when others call you one. In the martial arts there are many people who claim to be masters, but anyone who brags about his skills and ability is not a master.

Most of the 'old masters' I've had the pleasure and privilage to meet don't consider themselves 'masters', but 'students'.

Age is not necessarily any more a sign of a 'master' than a black belt is. For some, a solid lineage is a key component, for others, a colored belt, for others it is grey hair.

A true master shows the way...a wannabe spends all day shouting 'look how good I am'.

:asian:

 

[arnisandyz]

Begin calling someone with great skill and many years of training and teaching "master" the day after he or she dies...

kind of ironic that the "name" of the person who posted this is 'FasterthanDeath"...perhaps we should slow down and concentrate on the roads leading to Mastery rather than the title itself.

 

[Dronak]

Well, in the classes I took, we called our teacher "master" and he called his teacher, his master, our grandmaster. I'm not sure of their exact ages, but I think our master was around mid 30s and his master somewhere around 70. The only caveat he gave us was should we ever meet his classmates or travel to Taiwan with him, not to call him "master" -- use "coach" or "teacher" or something else. He said that he was the youngest in his group to start teaching and I think he didn't want to make his seniors feel like he had passed them. It was probably to continue to show respect to his seniors -- if they're not masters, he shouldn't be either. But I thought the terms were used in a generational sense because of the way we were introduced to them, not a level of ability sense. I suppose it can go either way.

If you're using it in an ability sense, then you're basically right that it depends more on your ability than age. But as others noted, with age comes maturity, something you probably need to achieve mastery of a subject. It also brings more experience, practice, training, knowledge, etc. Can you truly master a subject by the age of 23 even if you've studied it most of your life? Maybe, but I'm not so sure. There's really nothing left for you to learn? You've mastered it all?

I think Kaith has a good point, too, that people who are basically masters of their art still don't see themselves that way and feel there is always more to learn. I'm sure they do recognize the level of knowledge and skill they have, are aware that this can lead them to be a good teacher, but they probably won't consider themselves masters if they feel there is more they can learn, some aspect that they haven't fully mastered yet.

Also as noted, anyone can declare themselves a Master or Grandmaster if they really want to. Unless there's something to back it up, a title alone doesn't mean much. If people see a 23 year old calling themselves a grandmaster of a martial art, I can understand why they'd question it. I'd probably question it, too. Sure, skill is certainly important but if you're seriously studying a subject, you'll only improve as you get older, right?

 

[Matt Stone]

Well, in the classes I took, we called our teacher "master" and he called his teacher, his master, our grandmaster.

What style was this? TKD calls pretty much anybody a master after a certain belt rank, then their titles get pretty weird...

I'm not sure of their exact ages, but I think our master was around mid 30s and his master somewhere around 70.

I'm 35, and have been training for 18 years. I'd never allow someone to call me master... For that matter, I don't even let my students call me "sifu" since that means "master teacher/father."

 

[Dronak]

The handout we got when we started called our style "Northern Long Fist Shaolin Kung Fu". It still sounds kind of vague to me, but apparently that's it. Our teacher has been training for at least 18 years; I think it was about that long a few years ago when we got our initial handouts from the club so it must be over 20 years now. I know what you mean, being called master at that age would probably seem odd to me, too. It might at any age, actually. But this is how we were doing things. I just figured this is how it was always done with this style/lineage, and they did seem to be used for generations rather than abilities, so it didn't bother me.

 

[7starmantis]

A title is just a title, if your looking for the title your own the wrong course anyways. I would probably think strange of anyone referring to themselves as master or grandmaster. If its from someone else I can accept it better, but from yourself, its kind of off track. My sigung (teacher's teacher) had black belts in 3 arts before starting to study kung fu 40 years ago. He still doesn't refer to himself as master.



On another note, sifu is simply the word for teacher. Calling someone your sifu is correct, its not translated to father or master as many believe.


7sm

 

[Matt Stone]

On another note, sifu is simply the word for teacher. Calling someone your sifu is correct, its not translated to father or master as many believe.

While it is not translated as "master teacher/father," when you read the Chinese characters that is precisely the relationship they convey. Si can mean "teacher; master; tutor," or "a specialist, especially of medicine, painting, music, divining, etc." Fu can mean "tutor; teacher," or simply "to teach." Taken together, there is the implicit connotation of mastery of the subject being taught.

I can't recall the characters for "lao shi," otherwise I'd look them up as well... But when I took Chinese in college, our teacher had us refer to her as "Lin Lao Shi" (Teacher Lin), not "Lin Sifu." And she had a master's degree in Chinese...

Whatever, to each their own in the end I suppose. I still won't let folks use the word to refer to me... At least not until after I'm dead (because then I won't care).

 

[WLMantisKid]

Fu also translates into "man".

Kung - Working Fu - Man

Kung Fu - Hard Work

Sifu just means Teacher, or "Kung Fu Father or Mother" Not literal father.

 

[FasterthanDeath]

Let me say that not even in my post did I ever call myself master or grandmaster. That is a title given to me by others who see what I do and learn my belt ranking. I have never called myself master and dont allow anyone else to either. I do believe that anyone who calls themselves that is going for the "look at me I am the greatest" motiff that alot of people in the MA community have and or going for. Let me give you the specifics of what I am referring to. When I enter a AAU tournament or an AOK tournament here in texas, they ask for belt rank, and ask for the school you attend. I give them both, they get their reference and then they begin giving me excuses and lies to what I call "Embarrassment" at their own tournaments. When I go to seminars, when I attend special tournaments, clincs, or any other MA event. I am a simple hide in the corner hope that noone recongnizes me and tried to enjoy the seminar. People didnt want to train with me, and when they did in some way shape or form, I embarrassed them because I knew what I was doing. I dont look for respect on how much I know. Just what I know. I have seen shaolin children destroy and move like noother person on the planet can. One of my good friends who I consider to be a CMA goddess, told me one day that those Shoalin kids arent human, their aliens. (Of course not in an insulting way, in a very much impressed way.) And she trained with them!!! Noone questions their ability or knowledge of the information. You can call me Grandjanitor for all I care, but I do know just as much as they do. And I can prove it. But still, after I get done telling you, showing you, and even impressing you it just comes back to my age. I am not a master folks, thats what others call me, then they doubt what they just said. Please, more replies, I find this to be a great thread right now!!!

 

[FasterthanDeath]

my biggest problem with it was not the title guys, it was the fact that I was challenged. Others know me by this title. I really dont care. I just find it kind of childish for other people who are in the MA to actually sterotype people and their ability. I thought we all lost that when we learn that anyone can be deadly. Or that anyone can hurt you. But now that I really think about it, Life never really changes, it just repeats. And probably to the day I die their will be people who will laugh and joke and doubt me, but that wasnt the problem, it was the fact that when they learned one piece of data that doesnt effect the other, I went to being nothing. But thats everyone. And arnis, I have never stopped concentrating on the road to mastery, the truth is we never stop learning. And we can never be a master if we never stop learning.

 

[Matt Stone]

Fu also translates into "man".

Kung - Working Fu - Man

Kung Fu - Hard Work

Sifu just means Teacher, or "Kung Fu Father or Mother" Not literal father.

Do you speak Chinese? Just curious... Where do you draw your conclusions from? Try looking here.

You'll find that "sifu" isn't spelled the way you think it is. Same sound you are citing, but different character.

Let me say that not even in my post did I ever call myself master or grandmaster. That is a title given to me by others who see what I do and learn my belt ranking.

I'm sorry, I'm not intending to be discourteous, but... you're 23. I don't care how good your physical skills may be, you simply cannot have sufficient life experience, sufficient intellectual understanding, sufficient education (be it martial or otherwise) to warrant the title "master." Those who you say use it in reference to you either don't know any better or are too deluded by their fantasy version of martial arts practice. It would be best for you to discourage their use of such a term - that would be winning half your battle for acceptance.

I have never called myself master and dont allow anyone else to either.

You just said that others use that term when referring to you. Which is it? I'm getting confused... :idunno:

Let me give you the specifics of what I am referring to. When I enter a AAU tournament or an AOK tournament here in texas, they ask for belt rank, and ask for the school you attend.

So what would they be? Please share with us...

I give them both, they get their reference and then they begin giving me excuses and lies to what I call "Embarrassment" at their own tournaments. When I go to seminars, when I attend special tournaments, clincs, or any other MA event. I am a simple hide in the corner hope that noone recongnizes me and tried to enjoy the seminar. People didnt want to train with me, and when they did in some way shape or form, I embarrassed them because I knew what I was doing.

You "know what you are doing," but that doesn't mean you do so in a spectacular manner... Please elaborate...

I dont look for respect on how much I know. Just what I know.

Yet it seems that you are still looking for something... You say the title "master" doesn't concern you, yet you start a thread about when a person can be considered a master... You say you aren't concerned with the opinions of others, that you don't demand their respect, but then you describe how upset you get when you aren't recognized for your training... You are playing both sides of the fence... poorly.

I have seen shaolin children destroy and move like noother person on the planet can.

While some of the children training in Shaolin gymnastics in the PRC are quite talented, I seriously doubt their ability to fight against a grown adult. I doubt they can "destroy" at will anything beyond another child...

One of my good friends who I consider to be a CMA goddess, told me one day that those Shoalin kids arent human, their aliens. (Of course not in an insulting way, in a very much impressed way.) And she trained with them!!! Noone questions their ability or knowledge of the information. You can call me Grandjanitor for all I care, but I do know just as much as they do. And I can prove it. But still, after I get done telling you, showing you, and even impressing you it just comes back to my age. I am not a master folks, thats what others call me, then they doubt what they just said. Please, more replies, I find this to be a great thread right now!!!

Again, you are trying to be recognized as a master while trying to convince us all that you don't lay claim to being one (though you turn 180 degrees and point out that you know enough to be a master nonetheless). It is this immaturity, this inability to see through the superficial nature of titles and labels, that stands in your way of real progress.

Please, if you are ever in Washington State, visit our training group. I would like to see the skills you possess...

:asian:

 

[Han-Mi]

Master is simply a title, however, you can understand how people feel when they see a 23 yr old master. It's the same mentality as when we see a 10 yr old black belt. We all no that in a practical situation the 10 yr old blackbelt is pretty much useless. As for the monk children, they devote their lives to training, something that is almost never (i say almost because there could be one person out there, but I don't really think so) duplicated in the U.S. Back to your problem, I suggest that you wear an unmarked belt or you refer to yourself as a black belt, or sash, whichever you have, when you refer to your rank. I understand you should not have to conceal your true rank, but after black belt, does it really matter? If you want to get rid of all the controversy, just stop talking about how great you are, and let your actions show it.

I'm not saying your not gifted and experienced, I'm just saying that I would be hesitant to take you seriously without seeing your skill. I would also have to talk to you for a while, we would share our philosiphies and discuss our arts and how they apply to life and all that good stuff. I just don't think the maturity required could have been attained in such a short time.
And I am a 20 yr old 2nd dan BB waiting to be tested for my 3rd dan. I know age is not such an important factor, But i personally believe that there are certain experiences that you cannot have at such an early age.

Obviously, I could be wrong.

 

[FasterthanDeath]

OK. 1. The reason I titled it that way is because that is how people title me. I dont want them to call me that. You misunderstood what I am trying to say. I was called one time 1 TIME master by a student of mine at a tournament. People just assume that if you are the head instructor you are the GM. 2. They say it like its a joke, very condensending like, As in OHHHH he is a master? AH! as they laugh. 3. Your telling me that I am playing both sides of the fence? Here let me clarify, When I said I know as much as they do. I meant the people who SLANDER what I teach. I do not mean the Masters. Never has a Self proclaimed or Proclaimed Master ever told me that I had no clue on what I was doing. 4. My problem was bigger than just me. I was talking about the politics and ego problems in MA. Alot of people laugh at you if you say you are a Judo practioner. Some at Ninjitsu. I find it very ironic that in a world of morality and discipline that it always goes back to I am bigger and badder than you. Thats what my problem is about. 5. How would you know if a ST kid could fight you? Ever seen one fight? A streetfight? Ever seen one lose? Being beat? I have seen all of that. In a city named Arlington there is a Temple where one of the sons of my teacher was attending for school. I have seen him win, lose and being beat by guys 2, 3 times his size. And as far as seeing my skills, you know enough to say I am a fool, so I am sure you know my skills too, or maybe that was just your immaturity showing itself.

 

[FasterthanDeath]

thats last line was just a joke! No seriously, you maybe wrong, but you may also be right. I just would like to hear some others info on it. I am not playing both sides, I truthfully would like your opinons, they are unbiased and only based on what I have told you. I appreciate it very much, and I have only been on this forum for like a week, and I love it!!! Thank you all, especially Mr. Stone. And man if I ever go to Washington, I would like to train with other CMA, cause its very very very short down here!!!! And I really, really, really, REALLY dont like to be called anything but my name. Knowledge is knowledge. It was a gift given to me, so I just give it out too. No offense to anyone, I just wanted to see if everyone else feels or sees what I am talking about. I love the WEBSITE! And hope to be in more colorful posts!!!!

 

[shesulsa]

Honestly, I think that people are just generally disrespectful and tend to challenge authority. Here in the west, we're accustomed to demanding what we feel we've "paid for" but, as we all know, the martial way is not as simple as that. Be prepared that as someone with rank and authority, you will be challenged. Managers and supervisors at other jobs are challenged, cops are challenged, teachers and principals are challenged, parents, doctors (smile), you name it.

Try not to take it personally unless it is truly meant personally, and even then, weigh the situation to see what you can get out of what was said.

Now, you know, you still are very young and do have a great deal of life experience to put under your belt, and that too will have people taking you to the table on issues.

So, breathe, relax and smile!