Add-on TKD Hoshinsul and Hapkido

[dancingalone]

Is anyone aware of specific curriculum available for sale with further training available via seminars? Someone I know is interested in adding a heavier SD component to his TKD school.

He's already aware of the "Combat Hapkido" option, and he's not necessarily concerned about style purity, ranks, etc. He just wants to beef up his SD offerings within his school and will make a credible attempt to learn the material to an instructor level before teaching it himself to others.

I'm fully aware the some will have negative opinions about so-called "add-on" hapkido. I'm probably one of them. Hope someone can help regardless.

 

[Kumbajah]

and will make a credible attempt to learn the material to an instructor level before teaching it himself to others.

That made me laugh out loud - thanx

 

[dancingalone]

You're welcome, I guess. Anyone else have a serious answer?

 

[Kumbajah]

How about a serious question then - If you are against it, why are you trying to propagate it?

I'm fully aware the some will have negative opinions about so-called "add-on" hapkido. I'm probably one of them. Hope someone can help regardless.

It's like saying "I'm against underage drinking but anyone know where I can score some fake IDs?"

 

[dancingalone]

How about a serious question then - If you are against it, why are you trying to propagate it?



It's like saying "I'm against underage drinking but anyone know where I can score some fake IDs?"

Start a new thread to discuss it if you want. In the mean time, I'd appreciate it if you would quit bogging down my thread which was started for a specific purpose. Mods?

 

[dortiz]

He could join the Koryu Uchinadi and buy their two man sets and self defense modules.
They are good about exactly what you are describing. Adding to ones sytem or filling holes.

 

[Kumbajah]

Start a new thread to discuss it if you want. In the mean time, I'd appreciate it if you would quit bogging down my thread which was started for a specific purpose. Mods?

No need to - I know where I stand. You seem conflicted though. Hope you work it out for yourself.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Is anyone aware of specific curriculum available for sale with further training available via seminars? Someone I know is interested in adding a heavier SD component to his TKD school.

He's already aware of the "Combat Hapkido" option, and he's not necessarily concerned about style purity, ranks, etc. He just wants to beef up his SD offerings within his school and will make a credible attempt to learn the material to an instructor level before teaching it himself to others.

I'm fully aware the some will have negative opinions about so-called "add-on" hapkido. I'm probably one of them. Hope someone can help regardless.

Does he have background in anything other than taekwondo?
What is his rank/level of experience in taekwondo and what style of taekwondo is he teaching?
What holes does he perceive in the SD component of his taekwondo class?
Is he primarily doing sport TKD?

I have been led to believe that there is a pretty hefty amount of grapples and locks in the ITF encyclopedia and there are likely to be instructional videos available that cover the material. Additionally, it would be designed to segue with taekwondo already. If he teaches Chang Hon TKD, this would likely be the best bet.

Generally, I am of the opinion that taekwondo should be taught as taekwondo. I was involved in a hybrid TKD/Hapkido class before studying hapkido as a separate art and while the class was a quite good, it did substantially increase the quantity of material.

Between sport sparring, forms, the core TKD curriculum and the additional hapkido add on, it was really too much material. I felt that had he dropped the sport and all of the specialized training that went with it, it would have been a much better class.

If his school is a sport school that is very active in competition, I will be honest and say that training to be competitive in sport TKD is every bit as time consuming and challenging as learning the "traditional" art. Especially WTF sport, which has become so incredibly specialized that I question whether or not it should even be called taekwondo. For a heavier SD component to be effective for the students, they need to be trained and drilled in it intensely. If there is no grappling or locks at all in his current curriculum, his students will all be essentially white belts with the material. Unless he has the time in his schedule to drill them in it effectively, I question how much practical benefit his students will derive.

Daniel

 

[dancingalone]

Does he have background in anything other than taekwondo?
What is his rank/level of experience in taekwondo and what style of taekwondo is he teaching?

He's a 3rd dan in TKD. Independent style, pretty much punch/kick stuff with some throws from judo thrown in. He knows some rudimentary wrist and shoulder locks and does them well from the scenarios he has practiced.

I have been led to believe that there is a pretty hefty amount of grapples and locks in the ITF encyclopedia and there are likely to be instructional videos available that cover the material. Additionally, it would be designed to segue with taekwondo already. If he teaches Chang Hon TKD, this would likely be the best bet.

Although he uses the Chang Hon forms, he's certainly not ITF. I didn't know the ITF sold videos that cover hoshinsul. Are you familiar with their content? Are they any 'good'?

Generally, I am of the opinion that taekwondo should be taught as taekwondo. I was involved in a hybrid TKD/Hapkido class before studying hapkido as a separate art and while the class was a quite good, it did substantially increase the quantity of material.

Between sport sparring, forms, the core TKD curriculum and the additional hapkido add on, it was really too much material. I felt that had he dropped the sport and all of the specialized training that went with it, it would have been a much better class.

Daniel

I generally agree, but I think there's an whole undefined range between taekwondo and hapkido. Some of the old school taekwondo schools seem to work this material more as their masters were Koreans who might have learned what we call hapkido in their formative years. It's this offering that my friend wants to beef up in his school.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

How about a serious question then - If you are against it, why are you trying to propagate it?



It's like saying "I'm against underage drinking but anyone know where I can score some fake IDs?"

No, it is not.

It is like saying that I think trucks and SUV's make lousy daily drivers and get lousy fuel economy, but a good friend would like one because he needs to tow a boat and cannot afford to maintain a Malibu and a Tahoe simultaneously. Not being versed in trucks and SUV's due to my belief that all cars should handle like slot cars, weigh no more than 3400 pounds and get at least 25mpg, I am not qualified to make the recommendation.

Underage drinking is illegal, as is using fake ID's to facilitate it. Add on hapkido is not illegal. It may or may not be a good idea, but that is a different subject.

Rather than going out of your way to be obnoxious, you could use some of that experience that you claim to have and actually give decent advice to people.

If you have nothing to contribute other than smug snipes, then please refrain from comment.

Daniel

 

[Kumbajah]

You're reading way too much into it. More simply put - Why help with something that you think is a bad idea?

Can you offer a distance learning program for Kumdo? Would you think its a good idea? Could someone understand the subtleties of the art? Would you take intstruction from someone that learned that way? Would you want someone that you loved to learn from someone that learned that way and rely on it.

It makes for craptasic MAs and should be mocked and denounced. If his friend wants a more robust art he should make the effort to learn one, not look for short cuts.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

He's a 3rd dan in TKD. Independent style, pretty much punch/kick stuff with some throws from judo thrown in. He knows some rudimentary wrist and shoulder locks and does them well from the scenarios he has practiced.

Methinks that getting his students incredibly solid in the basic locks and throws that he is skilled in might be more beneficial than para-content hoshinsul.

Although he uses the Chang Hon forms, he's certainly not ITF. I didn't know the ITF sold videos that cover hoshinsul. Are you familiar with their content? Are they any 'good'?

I am not personally familiar with it. I cannot afford the 16 volume encyclopedia. This might not be the worst place to start though: http://www.amazon.com/Chang-Hon-Taekwon-do-Hae-Sul/dp/1906628041 Given that the author is Stuart Anslow, I will recommend the book unread.

I generally agree, but I think there's an whole undefined range between taekwondo and hapkido. Some of the old school taekwondo schools seem to work this material more as their masters were Koreans who might have learned what we call hapkido in their formative years. It's this offering that my friend wants to beef up in his school.

I agree with you here. My early taekwondo experience was along these lines.

Sport is the monkey wrench. Effective sport training is very time consuming and leaves little time for the rest. We are fighting that battle in Kumdo between the practical sword work and Kumsul being balanced with the KKA style kumdo (Korean kendo). Each really is course of study on its own.

Daniel

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

You're reading way too much into it.

I am not reading anything into it.

More simply put - Why help with something that you think is a bad idea?


It makes for craptasic MAs and should be mocked and denounced. If his friend wants a more robust art he should make the effort to learn one, not look for short cuts.

What you just posted is an actual answer (as opposed to a snipe), is helpful in that it addresses directly the question posed by the OP, and is what you could have/should have said in the first place.

Daniel

 

[dancingalone]

Methinks that getting his students incredibly solid in the basic locks and throws might be more beneficial than para-content hoshinsul.

Well, that's the issue. He's only learned bits and pieces of various techniques. He doesn't know how to apply say a shoulder lock, except from a very specific opening, since that's all he's been taught.

The obvious solution is to train in a full system that offers content of this nature, but that's not possible for him for a variety of reasons. (Heck, I could teach him Okinawan karate!) I believe there's a median point between learning a new art entirely and doing without the knowledge at all. It's this niche area of learning that would be beneficial to him.

I am not personally familiar with it. I cannot afford the 16 volume encyclopedia. This might not be the worst place to start though: http://www.amazon.com/Chang-Hon-Taekwon-do-Hae-Sul/dp/1906628041 Given that the author is Stuart Anslow, I will recommend the book unread.

I do not believe General Choi's Encyclopedia is a sufficient source to learn by oneself. Ideally any add-on program like this should come with training opportunities too. It shouldn't just be a book or a DVD.

I own the Anslow book myself, and I like it, but I think my friend is looking for material independent of hyung. Basically a soup to nuts learning opportunity based on responses to grabs, headlocks, pushes, etc. This is material many taekwondo schools practice already.

 

[dortiz]

Finding a program as an add on with good DVds and seminars to back up the work is not like trying to learn Kumdo long distance.
We are talking about folks who have an art down and have bits and pieces but need direction.
YES, always better to be in a school but if you cant why not use the next best learning tool.
As mentioned specific programs designed to be used with support are out there.

Although I would still say driving even up two hours for the right class 4 even 2 times a month would be better.

 

[Kumbajah]

Dave,

I don't see how you can differentiate between the two (Kumdo/Hapkido) as different in distance learning. Hapkido is not TKD. People attempt to add HKD to TKD not the other way around.

Dancing,

You don't question the morality of someone "learning" something in less than ideal situations and then passing themselves off as an"expert" able to teach someone else. And then others (his students) accepting that they are learning from an "expert." Is fraud at a minium and possibly reckless endangerment.

Why don't you just teach him Okinawan Karate?

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I do not believe General Choi's Encyclopedia is a sufficient source to learn by oneself. Ideally any add-on program like this should come with training opportunities too. It shouldn't just be a book or a DVD.

No, you would need more than the encyclopedia. But I have not even seen that, so I do not know if the content is forms based or nuts and bolts. Given that it is a 16 volume set, I would hope that there is more than just forms applications in it.

The reason that I mentioned the Choi encyclopedia set is that he may be able to find someone locally who teaches the SD content, which would eliminate the whole 'distance learning' issue.

This might be more along the lines of what you were after, though again, I am not familiar with the SD content.
http://www.aimaa.com/index.html

At some point, no matter what he chooses to do, he is going to have to have some kind of in person training. I do question how well seminars can realistically prepare a striker with minimal exposure to throws and locks to teach the material effectively in a class setting.

Daniel

 

[dortiz]

"I don't see how you can differentiate between the two (Kumdo/Hapkido) as different in distance learning. Hapkido is not TKD. People attempt to add HKD to TKD not the other way around. "

What I am saying is that learning either style that way wont work.

Taking a program like Combat Hapkido or Koryus two man sets and bunkais and applying them to what you already have to me is a different conversation.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Can you offer a distance learning program for Kumdo?

Can I? Sure. Would I? No. Due to the fact that the effectiveness of such a program depends greatly on the student, and the fact that video learning eliminates any means of evaluating a new student, I would have to say no thank you.

Would you think its a good idea?

In asking this, you seem to assume that I think that it is a good idea with regards to hapkido. My answer regarding both arts is the same: I have mixed feelings, generally negative. My opinion is different depending upon who the student is. See below.

Could someone understand the subtleties of the art?

Depends. To a first dan iaidoka, HDGD practitioner, or equivalent rank western sword stylist? Sure, though they would reach the limit of what can be taught via distance learning fairly quickly. To a guy who had little or no experience whatsoever? No.

Would you take intstruction from someone that learned that way?

Moot point: I have been training for several years and have no need of doing so. If a respected instructor of higher rank than myself in the same organization had learned some forms for the dao after picking up a video with the traditional forms for that weapon, sure. It's a single edged sword and the principles are the same. So long as he was up front about the fact that he had learned these specific forms from a video, I would be okay with that.

Would you want someone that you loved to learn from someone that learned that way and rely on it.

Well, nobody relies upon kumdo.

But this last question is the main issue with regards to the OP. The OP's friend has a solid TKD program and is looking to enhance the SD, presumably in the areas of locks and grapples; I would hope that striking defense curriculum is already solid.

Since he is looking to add "Self Defense" and not just forms or fitness, I do feel that more than just dvd and seminar back up is needed to introduce locks and throws into a class, though dvd's and seminar backup is a good way for him to personally get his feet wet, make contacts, and then find a place to train in it long enough to be able to teach it. Knowing Dancing fairly well here, I would be surprised if he has not already given his friend similar advice or encouraged him to find a good local school.

Daniel

 

[Kumbajah]

TDK experience doesn't equal HKD experience. They are different arts, they move in different ways. There is a different paradigm they function in.

Someone comes to an instructor to learn a life skill. They trust that whom they are learning from is an expert.

To me (and most) that is someone that has put in the hours and was nurtured/molded into their current position as a teacher. Just as you would with any other type of instructor (kindergarden teach through college professor). They have done the necessary work and have been evaluated as worthy as an instructor. ( not just rubber stamped as another income source)

To bypass that is to betray that trust. Someone may just stake their life on what your friend has taught them. Most likely not. If they do - it may be enough or it might be just enough to get them hurt or killed.

I take it as a huge responsibility - you may not. Martial arts aren't magic and they aren't parlor tricks. It's through the hard work and effort you can see what the limitations are. Otherwise it's the blind leading the blind.

I get the sense that he's looking for something as "value added" to enhance his business rather than knowledge to enhance his students. A huge difference IMO.