Add-on TKD Hoshinsul and Hapkido

[dancingalone]

Sigh. I was really hoping this type of discussion about the appropriateness of add-on programs could have been given its own thread where I would likely have participated. Thanks for crapping on my thread, Kumbajah. Your antagonism very likely drove off participation from some who may have been able to offer the information I was seeking. Neg points coming your way and deservedly so.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I get the sense that he's looking for something as "value added" to enhance his business rather than knowledge to enhance his students. A huge difference IMO.

99% of the time, that is the goal in these scenarios. As I do not know Dancing's friend, I will refrain from assuming his motivations.

Daniel

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Sigh. I was really hoping this type of discussion about the appropriateness of add-on programs could have been given its own thread where I would likely have participated.

As with kiddie black belts, sport vs. art, and other hot topics, it already has. They tend to end up locked for some odd reason.

Daniel

 

[Kumbajah]

Sigh. I was really hoping this type of discussion about the appropriateness of add-on programs could have been given its own thread where I would likely have participated. Thanks for crapping on my thread, Kumbajah. Your antagonism very likely drove off participation from some who may have been able to offer the information I was seeking. Neg points coming your way and deservedly so.

Good If I've stopped someone from going down this path - my job is done.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Good If I've stopped someone from going down this path - my job is done.

Now you are back to sniping, though I doubt that you see it as such.

Daniel

 

[dortiz]

"TDK experience doesn't equal HKD experience. They are different arts, they move in different ways. There is a different paradigm they function in."

Sorry to ruin your thread dancingalone.
I in many ways agree with you Kumbajah and get why you are so passionate.
I guess what we dont know for sure is what really going on here. If its adding a program as a whole by long distance, it just wont work.
If its finding materials that let you add to your existing program, then I think its fine.
Bad example, New Combat HKD class added based off DVDs watched.
Good Example: 3 step sparring now adding 3 new finishes based on moves from DVds that fit on existing entries or can variate easily and make sense to existing style and program.

 

[The Last Legionary]

Is anyone aware of specific curriculum available for sale with further training available via seminars? Someone I know is interested in adding a heavier SD component to his TKD school.

He's already aware of the "Combat Hapkido" option, and he's not necessarily concerned about style purity, ranks, etc. He just wants to beef up his SD offerings within his school and will make a credible attempt to learn the material to an instructor level before teaching it himself to others.

I'm fully aware the some will have negative opinions about so-called "add-on" hapkido. I'm probably one of them. Hope someone can help regardless.

Look in the back of Black Belt magazine. Many of their offerings fit the bill.

Of course, finding a local or close by instructor for personal training, who you can build a relationship with, bring in for a quarterly tune up seminar, and actually learn a bit more from than you would ever get from a video would be the long-term better investment. Course, a quick buck tack on of side program, you can build by just pulling random crap together and charge an extra $20 a month for.

I like the "I'm going to ding you" comment back a bit though. Nice confession to breaking the site rules. I'm sure that'll win you favor with the modsquad. Then again, neither will the crap other folks tossed in. The OP asked a question, clarified he only wanted to hear the good info and not the negatives. Seems the topic was defined. How long before we see a mod warning here? Is that what's wanted? ok, back to drinking sugar water for me.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I am going to assume based on the title of the thread that it is an add-on that is sought rather than a full program. Dancing is pretty particular in what he posts, so I am willing to take his posts at face value.

Seems that we have an independent school that teaches Chang Hon forms and is looking to expand the curriculum to include some grapples, locks and throws with practical SD application.

My question to the OP is this: How elaborate is he looking to get? Does he have a sport program currently in place and is it mandatory? You may have already answered that question, so apologies if you have.

Basic SD is not the same as learning a full MA. In fact, if all that you want is applicable self defense, one does not need what is contained in most full MA"s to have it. But what is needed to make it worthwhile is a substantial amount of drilling and live training with resisting partners of varying sizes.

This is the main reason that I have participated. If the question had been "can you learn hapkido from videos and occasional seminars" I would simply have said no. But that is not what is being asked.

Daniel

 

[dancingalone]

Good If I've stopped someone from going down this path - my job is done.

You haven't done anything other than make it difficult for someone to give me the information I asked for.

I politely asked you to create a new thread rather than derailing mine, but you were too rude to comply.

Perhaps you should pick a new username. Kumbajah seems inappropriate except in a sarcastic fashion.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Gents, ladies, before we have to get an official warning in here, lets drop the sniping, and focus on the original request. It'll make everyone's day better. K? Thanks.

 

[jks9199]

Folks, I don't believe that the topic is what has or has not been discussed before. I'm certain it's not taking pot shots at other people, no matter how obliquely done. So maybe we can try to stay on topic, and avoid the personal attacks, OK?

Anybody got any advice for how a TKD instructor can successfully add or increase the self defense content of his or her program?

 

[SahBumNimRush]

I do not personally know of any particular program (dvd's, seminars, etc.). But adding basic principles to a solid base, IMHO, is a justified pursuit. Whoever claims that their TKD is the only TKD, is just ignorant. The names Kong Soo Do, Tang Soo Do, and any of the various Kwans, all have some of their members now represented as TKD. I know that my kwan jang nim teaches some joint locks, throws, and take downs in our curriculum, and who is so omnipotent to say that this isn't TKD?

If you add the principle technique approaches that are taught, any number of these "add on" techs fit nicely within a given curriculum IMHO.

Where is your friend located, Dancing? Although I do not know of any seminars or dvd's, depending on his background I may be able to offer some insight.

 

[dancingalone]

I am going to assume based on the title of the thread that it is an add-on that is sought rather than a full program. Dancing is pretty particular in what he posts, so I am willing to take his posts at face value.

Seems that we have an independent school that teaches Chang Hon forms and is looking to expand the curriculum to include some grapples, locks and throws with practical SD application.

Yes, that's exactly the material that is being sought here. As many of you know, I train Okinawan karate and aikido. I fully realize every system has distinct knowledge that can never be passed via video or book. It would indeed be laughable if someone watched a DVD and then claimed to be a teacher of hapkido.

That's not the scenario here though. The premise is simply that a trained martial artist with some rudimentary knowledge already of how to apply wrist locks and shoulder locks is seeking to offer a broader curriculum of like material in his school. The purist answer is "well, go train hapkido, go train aikido". It's also overkill.

I believe you can learn a few tricks (and they can even be effective, useful techniques) without learning an entire martial art. As a base example, just take kote gaeshi from aikido. Teach it in response to a collar grab. A wrist grab. A shoulder grab. A straight punch from the right hand. A hooking punch from the left hand. You get my point hopefully. Learning these discrete case examples will still be valuable to someone who has mostly striking skills, even if they won't 'understand' the technique compared to someone who has trained for hours in the simple happo undo turning exercise. You don't have to get 'all' of something for it to still be useful and repeatable.

And that's really all this thread was supposed to ask. I'm certainly competent enough to throw together a program of this ilk, but I was trying to find out if it had been done well already by someone else. Plenty of 'mere' taekwondo schools even do something similar already.

My question to the OP is this: How elaborate is he looking to get? Does he have a sport program currently in place and is it mandatory? You may have already answered that question, so apologies if you have.

Daniel, I'm sure he's looking for something less than apprenticing himself to a hapkido master, but at the same time he's surely looking for something cohesive that builds upon levels of understanding so there is material for both beginners and those who might have a bit more experience.

 

[dancingalone]

Where is your friend located, Dancing? Although I do not know of any seminars or dvd's, depending on his background I may be able to offer some insight.

He's close enough to say Austin, Texas.

 

[Kumbajah]

I believe you can learn a few tricks (and they can even be effective, useful techniques) without learning an entire martial art. As a base example, just take kote gaeshi from aikido. Teach it in response to a collar grab. A wrist grab. A shoulder grab. A straight punch from the right hand. A hooking punch from the left hand. You get my point hopefully. Learning these discrete case examples will still be valuable to someone who has mostly striking skills, even if they won't 'understand' the technique compared to someone who has trained for hours in the simple happo undo turning exercise. You don't have to get 'all' of something for it to still be useful and repeatable.

This is the premise that I whole heartily disagree with. Doing a Kote Gaeshi incorrectly is more dangerous than not doing it at all. You learn that it is the positioning not the wrist twisting that is important and why the technique works. You only get that from studying the basics. If you see it a "trick" you are missing the point and more likely than not you'll be putting yourself in a worse position. Happo Undo integrates the proper body movement and more valuable.

It's better to be good at one thing than bad at one hundred.

 

[Kumbajah]

He's close enough to say Austin, Texas.

http://maps.google.com/maps?q=Austi...ent=firefox-a&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&hl=en&tab=wl

 

[dancingalone]

This is the premise that I whole heartily disagree with. Doing a Kote Gaeshi incorrectly is more dangerous than not doing it at all. You learn that it is the positioning not the wrist twisting that is important and why the technique works. You only get that from studying the basics. If you see it a "trick" you are missing the point and more likely than not you'll be putting yourself in a worse position. Happo Undo integrates the proper body movement and more valuable.

It's better to be good at one thing than bad at one hundred.

You're far too extreme it seems. Learning kote gaeshi is not an all-or-nothing scenario. Even a black belt gets better and better at the same technique over the years as he grows and refines himself in the art.

The same can happen for a layman who learns the gross technique. Who knows, he might even seek out more detailed instruction from someone in the jujutsu-derived arts ultimately.

 

[Kumbajah]

You're far too extreme it seems. Learning kote gaeshi is not an all-or-nothing scenario. Even a black belt gets better and better at the same technique over the years as he grows and refines himself in the art.

The same can happen for a layman who learns the gross technique. Who knows, he might even seek out more detailed instruction from someone in the jujutsu-derived arts ultimately.

Yes, perhaps but you are speaking to personal growth here. We all get better overtime (hopefully) What your original question asked is how to gain a bit of knowledge to pass on to students in the guise of an expert, as something that works, as something that can be used by students to defend one's self. Different beast.

Without a proper tenkan or irimi, kote gaeshi ain't gonna work. Most likely you'll just get punched in the head or worse

You know this.

 

[dancingalone]

Yes, perhaps but you are speaking to personal growth here. We all get better overtime (hopefully) What your original question asked is how to gain a bit of knowledge to pass on to students in the guise of an expert, as something that works, as something that can be used by students to defend one's self. Different beast.

I can teach someone without karate knowledge a front kick today. Give them a few months of drilling daily in response to various stimuli and he can use that front kick effectively when they need to.

I can teach someone without any aikido knowledge kote gaeshi today. Give them a year or so of daily drills against a variety of attacks and attackers and this too will be something he can use effectively when prompted with the stimuli he has trained against.

You're puffing up the complexity too much. Understanding of balance and leverage is universal to all systems, even striking ones. In the end, kote gaeshi is just a wrist lock and it's something anyone can learn given sufficient practice and guidance. And the chances of a student getting it are enhanced if they already understand distancing, balance, and leverage from studying another art. And even if he doesn't get it 100%, you don't have to understand everything about a technique in order to be able to use it in an effective fashion.

Without a proper tenkan or irimi, kote gaeshi ain't gonna work. Most likely you'll just get punched in the head or worse

You know this.

A taekwondoist as my friend is would surely understand that a judicious punch makes all of these techniques much easier to execute, even without 'proper' turning or entry. Like I said, he's not looking to be effortless like the likes of Ueshiba. He just wants to learn a few darn locks and throws!

 

[Kumbajah]

Ok - then with your experience, why aren't you teaching him? You know some Aikido - teach it to him. No need to look to Hapkido or any other outside sources.