add on Hapkido

[goingd]

What do you think about it? Do you do it? How do you do it?

It shouldn't have to be said, but be respectful. Just because one person states that they do not agree with you, it does not mean they are style bashing or trolling.

 

[dancingalone]

I think it should be called another name if only to desensitize the topic from hapkido people who have a negative impression. And it might be correct anyway to call it something else, since the so-called collection of techniques would inevitably lack the full transmission of principles that hapkido properly taught would harbor.

I like the term hoshinsul, referring to the grouping of self-defense techniques often taught in tae kwon do or tang soo do schools. The techniques taught in hoshinsul undoubtedly share some concepts with hapkido techniques, but as they come from schools where striking is emphasized with the accompanying distinction in execution, a purist would probably not call it "hapkido" proper which is fine.

As for utility, I think hoshinsul is valuable to people who are looking for this type of material. It has a place in the Korean martial arts.

 

[Kumbajah]

The locking techinques of TKD as per the Gen Choi's book come from Hapkido to call them simply Hoshinsool is a misnomer and fails to address to the principles that make the technique function.

TKD and HKD move in different ways. Taking a HKD technique and trying to do it isolation most likely cause it to fail. I seen enough TKD players that have "learned some HKD" to know that rarely do they get something of value or even something usable. It is usually a rough outward form that doesn't correlate to the principles.

It's like learning another language. Trying to do it do with the grammar of your original language isn't going to work. Thinking you are funtional because you learned to ask "were is the bathroom?" from a phrase book.

 

[Kumbajah]

Another point that rarely addressed is, often adding Hapkido is a business decision . Trying to get something for "added value" to the consumer experience. It has nothing to do with the martial aspects of the art.

Take a look at a Martial Arts professional magazine, if you get the chance, to see how this and other business practices are presented to school owners. It is about business not the study of MAs.

It is simply something to puff up the curriculum. Some "cool tricks" to keep people interested and continuing to pay. So the quality of instruction is secondary to the amount of fun the students are having. I'm all for fun but they aren't presented in that fashion - they are presented as "SELF DEFENSE"

The only saving grace in all this is that it is usually a sign of a failing business. Grasping to hold on.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

The locking techinques of TKD as per the Gen Choi's book come from Hapkido

Given that Choi was developing the Chang Hon system at the same time that hapkido was being developed, and that Choi had a substantial quantity of training in both the military and karate prior to that, I am inclined to doubt that he simply got it all from hapkido. I have never heard that statement made.

I am not dismissing your statement out of hand; I simply have never heard that. If you can cite a reference, that would be appreciated.

Daniel

 

[dancingalone]

There are Korean MA schools that predate General Choi as well that certainly teach some techniques that clearly came from the pre-TKD and pre-Hapkido pool. See Chayon-ryu or PaSa-ryu for examples. Their curriculums are primarily striking-based as "Korean karate" yet there is a significant self-defense technique component.

 

[dortiz]

To be fair I have also heard that he brought in a Hapkido Master to add those techniques.
I lost it but I even saw a demo film and at the end the different master steps in and does the techniques and it was brutally apparant that he moved completely different.
They may have had some based on the Karate but a clear portion of the self defense is inserted Hapkido.
I get a couple of basic locks inserted but other than that it becomes dangerous. I watch a TKD school do self defense techniques and its horrible. Wont work if ever needed. They lean way over instead of bringing the person in to their center so they will just topple. They muscle things instead of understand where a twist and turn of the body will move the person. In short what they are doing may or probably wont work.
So while I get what was being looked for, I really get the idea of how bad inserted arts can be.



Dave O.

 

[dancingalone]

I watch a TKD school do self defense techniques and its horrible.

Dave, do you think it could be done well?

I do. The key is to focus not so much on lifting hapkido techniques verbatim and shoehorning it into a TKD curriculum. Rather the goal should be on how to integrate some basic techniques common across grappling martial arts and do it in such a fashion that is not contradictory with the principles taught in the main art of taekwondo.

Consider the common outer leg reap. Judo calls it o-soto-gari. I've rarely seen it practiced in aikido as it generally involves too much 'muscle' than fits the aikido mindset, yet I've seen a very graceful version demonstrated by a tai chi man of all people. Regardless of whether you use brute force to unbalance and drop your foe in the judo version, or whether you achieve it through the tai chi way of overextension and faijin pushing, the throw still involves you removing the target's root along with his leg limb.

It would seem to me that the judo version of the throw would be a prime candidate for translation to a taekwondo system.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

To be fair I have also heard that he brought in a Hapkido Master to add those techniques.
I lost it but I even saw a demo film and at the end the different master steps in and does the techniques and it was brutally apparant that he moved completely different.
They may have had some based on the Karate but a clear portion of the self defense is inserted Hapkido.

I would be very interested in who the master is. I will bet that that was a treat to watch. If Choi brought them in, they had to be excellent.

I get a couple of basic locks inserted but other than that it becomes dangerous. I watch a TKD school do self defense techniques and its horrible. Wont work if ever needed. They lean way over instead of bringing the person in to their center so they will just topple. They muscle things instead of understand where a twist and turn of the body will move the person. In short what they are doing may or probably wont work.
So while I get what was being looked for, I really get the idea of how bad inserted arts can be.

So much depends upon the reasoning for the add on. Adding on a few basic locks and throws that one can use is reasonable, provided that they are taught correctly. That touches on instructor qualification at that point; if the instructor never learned to properly apply the lock or execute the throw, then no matter how basic, it is not a good idea to add it.

Anything more than basics (such as 50+ grappling/throwing waza from aikido or another grappling art), and the instructor really should be well practiced in that art or have cross trained in those techniques to a point that they have mastered them well enough to not only practically use them correctly, but well enough to teach them to beginning students without instilling any bad habits (such as leaning in or muscling through).

Daniel

 

[dortiz]

"if the instructor never learned to properly apply the lock or execute the throw, then no matter how basic, it is not a good idea to add it."
Exactly.

Dancingalone,
Yes, but only if the person adding the items knows what is being added. How funny you mention that technique. I believe that and a basic hip throw can be added and used off the existing entries and movement very well. After that a few techniques but again with good instruction. As I mentioned I have seen a simple elbow press arm bar butchered. Yet if taught right a hard style would step out to the outside of the right punch and block with the right hand that would slide to wrist and grab letting the left hand press on the elbow and do and arm bar.
Now in Hapkido I would pull his wrist into my center and rotate him down. For TKD I would teach a more direct press down but still focus on balance and the lock.
All of this will only work if the teacher knows the technique, where it fits and how it fits to the style the practitioner is doing.
Can be a basic SD module but again I would never pretend to say I was teaching or try to teach how my art moves. I would be modifying or using one variant of my art and inserting it the other.
Otherwise the class would morph as we would spend more time changing entries and style and soon it would become a Hapkido class ; )

 

[dortiz]

"I would be very interested in who the master is. I will bet that that was a treat to watch. If Choi brought them in, they had to be excellent."

I just remembered one DVD I used to own. I think its called TKD Masters and its really old film footage B &W. That too had a HKD Master at the end showing stuff including cane. Really worth finding again.

 

[dancingalone]

How funny you mention that technique. I believe that and a basic hip throw can be added and used off the existing entries and movement very well.

I appreciate the discussion. Hip throw is indeed another good candidate as is a very limited version of aikido's shihonage if taught with a simplifying analogy like clothes-lining. The resulting application won't be shihonage of course, but it fits the need at hand.

Now in Hapkido I would pull his wrist into my center and rotate him down. For TKD I would teach a more direct press down but still focus on balance and the lock.

I don't think the concept of center is that foreign to tae kwon do. In tae kwon do, a good instructor would tell his students never to overextend themselves when kicking or punching. In other words, strike only when you have a base and where you are strong. Now where are you strongest? At your center. So accordingly, pulling to your center shouldn't be something an experienced TKDist has troubling understanding.

 

[dortiz]

"I don't think the concept of center is that foreign to tae kwon do. In tae kwon do, a good instructor would tell his students never to overextend themselves when kicking or punching. In other words, strike only when you have a base and where you are strong. Now where are you strongest? At your center. So accordingly, pulling to your center shouldn't be something an experienced TKDist has troubling understanding."

Seems that way but here is where folks will say the issues begin. To see a HKD player do this you will see it is constant set of circles spiraling in. Its a very different way of moving. As the wrist is pulled in the the hip that leg starts spinning in reverse also increasing the turn and to add to that the hand holding the wrist at the hip starts to rotate more downward as the turn is occurring.
Can you teach that yes, but even in HKD class thats level 4 of the technique. So taking a TKD and getting him to spin on his center and rotate his arm, hip, leg and hand in to a descending radius does not happen easily. Thats why the argument.
At the same time the principal of the lock done well and finished in a hard style manner can be implemented.

 

[dancingalone]

Seems that way but here is where folks will say the issues begin. To see a HKD player do this you will see it is constant set of circles spiraling in. Its a very different way of moving. As the wrist is pulled in the the hip that leg starts spinning in reverse also increasing the turn and to add to that the hand holding the wrist at the hip starts to rotate more downward as the turn is occurring.
Can you teach that yes, but even in HKD class thats level 4 of the technique. So taking a TKD and getting him to spin on his center and rotate his arm, hip, leg and hand in to a descending radius does not happen easily. Thats why the argument.
At the same time the principal of the lock done well and finished in a hard style manner can be implemented.

Ah, but that's where I would deviate from hapkido canon. Is it possible to achieve almost the same unbalancing effect if instead of circles, you teach triangular stepping instead? The footwork becomes more linear as a hard stylist would be accustomed to and if you specifically insert some atemi at crucial points of the technique, the technique becomes easier to execute in theory on an attacker.

As I said, the goal shouldn't be to just rip off some hapkido techs.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Ah, but that's where I would deviate from hapkido canon. Is it possible to achieve almost the same unbalancing effect if instead of circles, you teach triangular stepping instead? The footwork becomes more linear as a hard stylist would be accustomed to and if you specifically insert some atemi at crucial points of the technique, the technique becomes easier to execute in theory on an attacker.

As I said, the goal shouldn't be to just rip off some hapkido techs.

Now this touches on taking techniques from another system (regardless of which one) and integrating them into the existing system.

Which is what one should do when they bring in techniques from without to each within the existing system.

Daniel

 

[dortiz]

I think we are agreeing. My point is that a good teacher will know how much fits and how much goes down a different path.
The crux of the issue is the skill level of the teacher in applying this. Thus we have some really crappy stuff out there that is an abomination.

 

[Kumbajah]

Dave, are you saying that someone should actually study Hapkido and gain an understanding of it before attempting to translate it to another art?

 

[iron_ox]

If you can cite a reference, that would be appreciated.

Daniel

Daniel et al,

One of the first texts that General Choi published regarding Taekwondo was the "Orange Book" - in the book are the standard forms, punching, kicking etc. There is also a section on "Self Defense" - this is the wrist locks, other non-standard material.

This section of the book is demonstrated by Master Chung Kee Tae, one of the highest ranking students of Choi Yong Sul Dojunim outside Korea. Master Chung was given a 7th Dan directly by Choi Yong Sul Dojunim; and the techniques in the book are basic but rather traditional Hapkido - so the notion is infact correct that General Choi took his "Self Defense" material directly from Hapkido.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Hello Kevin,

Many thanks for the citation! Not being a Chang Hon practitioner, I am certainly no Choi expert, so I am very glad to learn this. It is not something that I have heard about previously. I do study Kukki taekwondo, which is very light (to put it kindly) on any sort of grapples at all.

I do not know if you can answer this, but how thoroughly was the hapkido material integrated into the Chang Hon system? Was it literally an add on or was it integrated to accommodate the style of movement and fighting philosophy of Chang Hon taekwondo?

Daniel

 

[MrBigglesworth]

I appreciate the discussion. Hip throw is indeed another good candidate as is a very limited version of aikido's shihonage if taught with a simplifying analogy like clothes-lining. The resulting application won't be shihonage of course, but it fits the need at hand.


Shihonage is like kibon su / son mok su / sang chi su #3 ("coz number 3 is always number 3" ;-)
Shomen rimi nage is one that could be dumbed-down as a clothesline.