A question on Organizations

Discussion in 'Ninjutsu' started by Bob Hubbard, Nov 12, 2001.

  1. Bob Hubbard

    Bob Hubbard Retired

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    After following a little bit on the different organizations, I was wondering about a few things:

    1- How many are there? (Top level like Bujinkan and Genbukan)

    2- What are their histories

    3- How are they organized (Who's at the top, etc)

    Examples - Bujinkan - Hatsumi Sensei
    Genbukan - Shoto Tanemura


    Another question I have is I see the phrase "Soke" mentioned alot...is this Hatsumi Sensei?

    I mean no offence, but seek to understand things better.

    Thank you
    :asian:
     
  2. Jay Bell

    Jay Bell Master Black Belt

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    Hi Kaith,

    There are three main organizations. The Bujinkan, Genbukan and Jinenkan.

    The Bujinkan is headed by Hatsumi sensei. The Genbukan, Shoto Tanemura and Jinenkan Unsui Manaka. They were both longtime senior students of Hatsumi sensei and broke away to do their own thing.

    Shoto Tanemura went on to study with other teaches of Takamatsu sensei and funneling his knowledge into the Genbukan. Manaka sensei developed what he knew into Jinenkan. And developed a weapon based art called Jinen ryu that contains methods and ideas that aren't found in other bujutsu schools.

    Soke translates to "Head of the Family". In traditional Japanese budo, it refers to what us silly westerners call "Grandmaster". Hatsumi sensei is Soke of 9 schools of budo. Tanemura also is Soke of quite a few.

    Hope that helps some,

    Jay
     
  3. Cthulhu

    Cthulhu Senior Master

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    1) I only know of Genbukan and Bujinkan.
    However, I've also heard of a system called Shorinjin-ryu Saito Ninjitsu, headed by the Saito family. Note the spelling of the word 'ninjItsu'. This is their spelling, which they choose to use over the more accepted 'ninjUtsu' romanization.

    2) There are other far more qualified to give a history of the Genbukan and Bujinkan organizations than myself.

    3) See number 2 :D

    'Soke' can mean 'headmaster'. It basically means the head of the system, whether they teach or not. For example, the last time I heard, the head of the Katori Shinto Ryu system did not teach...they have a head instructor, Otake Risuke, who handles all of the instruction and ranking.

    Cthulhu
     
  4. Cthulhu

    Cthulhu Senior Master

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    Whoops! Jay beat me to it :D

    Jinenkan? Do you have any info on them? I've never heard of them before and now I'm interested :)

    I've read an interview with Tanemura where he stated that Hatsumi was not Takamatsu sensei's top student (I believe a name was mentioned, but I don't remember it now). Why did this person not succeed Takamatsu?

    Cthulhu
    PS from that interview, I gather that Tanemura doesn't like Hatsumi very much.
     
  5. Jay Bell

    Jay Bell Master Black Belt

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    That's true. Much of the Kuki family history had the Soke being nothing more then the person running religous ceremonies. The martial side of the traditions were done by the Shihan-ke.

    The Jinenkan was formed in 94, if memory serves. It's teachings from Gyokko ryu, Koto ryu, Shinden Fudo ryu, Togakure ryu and Kukishin ryu...and also the Jinen ryu which Manaka sensei developed.

    To be honest, no...Sensei was not Takamatsu's top student. Fumio Akimoto sensei was...and beneath him it was Kimura sensei. The heads of the lineages attempt to find someone to pass the schools on. His choice was Hatsumi sensei.

    There is a story of Akimoto sensei and his skill. He stood by a stream and did a batto (draw cut), cutting off the wing of a sparrow flying by. This showed the man's skill...but the heart isn't what Takamatsu sensei wanted for the next Soke. That said, Gikan ryu Koppojutsu was originally passed to Akimoto sensei. He passed on, the school was returned to Takamatsu sensei, then passed on again. Aikimoto sensei was also Soke of a family style called Shoken ryu Dakentaijutsu.

    As far Shorinjin-ryu Saito Ninjitsu, since this is a friendly board, I'll keep to myself on that one :D
     
  6. Cthulhu

    Cthulhu Senior Master

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    Thanky thanky thanky, Jay! More info than you can shake a stick at! :)

    Okay, I see several different systems of taijutsu listed. How are they taught (I guess in the Bujinkan, since that's the organization you seem to be affiliated with)? Are they all sort of blended together into one system? If so, how or when are the elements unique to each system separated for the students?

    Damn, I be nosey.

    Cthulhu
     
  7. Jay Bell

    Jay Bell Master Black Belt

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    The Genbukan and Jinenkan both seems to be very kata-based schools of thought. Perfect the kata, then move into henka (variations) from there.

    The Bujinkan...well...that one is hard to answer. There's an enormous freedom within the Bujinkan. When I teach, I work to develop very strong kihon and branch off from there with them. There's a feeling of making the technique your own.

    In Budo, there's an old saying "Shu, Ha, Ri"...and it applies to all three organizations as well.

    Shu - Learn the technique
    Ha - Change the technique
    Ri - Forget the technique

    It's somewhat of a vauge answer, but it's difficult to put into words.
     
  8. Cthulhu

    Cthulhu Senior Master

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    Not too vague, actually, and I appreciate the responses. Getting lots of good info!

    I seem to remember hearing something about the Genbukan system using kata. The Bujinkan organization does not, correct?

    That 'Shu, Ha, Ri...' principle sounds very similar to a JKD principle put forth by Bruce Lee. If I find the exact wording, I'll post it. I don't want to mangle it :)

    Thanks again,

    Cthulhu
     
  9. Jay Bell

    Jay Bell Master Black Belt

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    Bujinkan does study kata, but we don't spend an enormous time on it. Once things are flowing and strong...and make sense, then we move on from there.*

    *Speaking from my personal training in the Bujinkan
     
  10. higuma

    higuma Guest

    Cthulu,

    The kata question is one that has caused a lot of misunderstanding about how the Bujinkan trains.

    1) Emphasis on kata depends a lot on the individual instructor. Some teach kata fairly intensively and others tend to not teach them hardly at all.

    2) Regardless of how intensively kata is or is not taught by various instructors in the Bujinkan... kata is not, in and of itself, the goal. Kata are approached as a tool with which to teach certain principles. The kata itself is not important in the big picture but, what is inside (combative principles) is what is to be taught and mastered.

    I tend to teach (as does my teacher) kata quite a bit and disect them to find the important points. Once I find them I try to apply them to different situations. This is the key I think. Kata are specific, preorchestrated movements based on certain preordained circumstances. As such, when you change the stimulus, the appropriate response changes as well. But although specific orders of movement may no apply the principles tend to overlap situations.

    Again, this is probably a bit vague but, I hope it helps.123
     

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