A kem/npo sytem

[LawDog]

When you are in a conflict the doorways for your strikes are not stationary, they will be moving. If you execute a sword hand strike towards a soft area and your opponent moves you could impact a much harder area. If your hands are not conditioned the bone structure inside your hand could break.
In a street type fight if you impact your opponent with a powerful fist strike to the head/face area and are not a large boned person you will probably break your hand.
Boxers and Kickboxers wrap their hands for a reason and that is to protect them from impact damage. Out in the street you can't walk around with your hands wrapped.
You need not disfigure your hands by using external conditioning techniques instead you can condition them internally.

 

[Touch Of Death]

When you are in a conflict the doorways for your strikes are not stationary, they will be moving. If you execute a sword hand strike towards a soft area and your opponent moves you could impact a much harder area. If your hands are not conditioned the bone structure inside your hand could break.
In a street type fight if you impact your opponent with a powerful fist strike to the head/face area and are not a large boned person you will probably break your hand.
Boxers and Kickboxers wrap their hands for a reason and that is to protect them from impact damage. Out in the street you can't walk around with your hands wrapped.
You need not disfigure your hands by using external conditioning techniques instead you can condition them internally.

What he said!!! Doesn't Kenmpo use Martgin for error?
Sean

 

[Hand Sword]

So are all of the techniques going to use open hands?




So are we just using boxing defense or keeping some blocks?

Don't know. That's what I've been asking. If we are going to be a real, self defense method, do we keep the blocks? If we come up against punchers other than the one, big, throwers, will those blocks be sufficient, or too slow? If we were training to deal with the best punchers (boxers) wouldn't that help us to handle the average puncher? Are the blocks totally necessary? Or, could boxing defenses (all combined) cover both areas of punchers?

 

[Hand Sword]

What kind of conditioning? You mean like, hitting successively harder targets, building up bone deposits until the hands are hard like rocks (and disfigured)?

Do we need to break thru the bamboo armor of the invading samurai LOL?

Are we planning to use our style to break out of pine boxes when we get buried alive ROFL?

I vote NO on "conditioning"

Totally unnecessary nowadays.
Causes permanent damage to the body. (Unlike warriors of the 17th century, I plan to live to old age...).
It requires lots of time that can be better spent.

I didn't mean that stuff, but, now that you mentioned it...........

Nah! A little too extreme .... (I think

). I just figured that since our hands won't be protected, and during fights, punches occasionally miss and hit other stuff, it might be good to have some conditioning. Maybe not to the point of the people that you described, but, some. Hitting the heavy bag (and each other) is a form of it too. I would start of with gloves, move to wraps, and then, finally, to bare fists. Once one can swat away on the bag, bare handed, not bleed, hurt etc.., good enough for me.

 

[DavidCC]

When you are in a conflict the doorways for your strikes are not stationary, they will be moving. If you execute a sword hand strike towards a soft area and your opponent moves you could impact a much harder area. If your hands are not conditioned the bone structure inside your hand could break.
In a street type fight if you impact your opponent with a powerful fist strike to the head/face area and are not a large boned person you will probably break your hand.
Boxers and Kickboxers wrap their hands for a reason and that is to protect them from impact damage. Out in the street you can't walk around with your hands wrapped.
You need not disfigure your hands by using external conditioning techniques instead you can condition them internally.

yes that makes perfect sense, could you go into the internal conditioning a little more, please?

 

[Touch Of Death]

Kicks to the body and lower, from out there, knees to the body, on the way in, and after high attacks, elbows to the body, over uppercuts. More body weight and power. Otherwise your saying throw a punch from further out to the body, which would leave you compromised. If your close enough for correct uppercuts, elbows can be used in their place.




Just throwing stuff around for conversation and thinking purposes.

Elbows over upper cutts, what the heck are you talking about? One naturaly flows into the other. And no proper elbows and proper upper-cutts are not done at the same dimensional stage of action!!!!!
Sean

 

[LawDog]

David,
Not so as to tie up this thead in a day or so I will start another thread covering "conditioning". I will cover the hows / whys and the physics involved that make internal and external conditioning work.

 

[Hand Sword]

Elbows over upper cutts, what the heck are you talking about? One naturaly flows into the other. And no proper elbows and proper upper-cutts are not done at the same dimensional stage of action!!!!!
Sean

Actually they are. Where does one throw an elbow strike? Where does one throw an uppercut? The fact that an elbow flows off of a punching movement also proves my case. Just as you might throw an uppercut, you could choose to bend the arm a little further, and strike with an elbow instead. You don't throw either, for real, far away. Both are done up close, bascically leaning on each other. That way, for both strikes, the power of your whole body is into the strikes, and the distance traveled is the least amount.

However, I was just going with a punch attack scenario, where it was parried into a knee strike to the ribs/gut. You are now close enough to elbow, or punch. The choice is yours. I was asking for effeciency, if one should go with punches, risking injury, or go with open hand strikes or elbows. I have been asking if we should go with open strikes over punches, or keep punches. Basically what hand strikes do we go with? What one's do we delete?

 

[Hand Sword]

David,
Not so as to tie up this thead in a day or so I will start another thread covering "conditioning". I will cover the hows / whys and the physics involved that make internal and external conditioning work.

It won't tie up the thread, please go into it if you wish to. It is relevant to what is being discussed.

 

[Touch Of Death]

Actually they are. Where does one throw an elbow strike? Where does one throw an uppercut? The fact that an elbow flows off of a punching movement also proves my case. Just as you might throw an uppercut, you could choose to bend the arm a little further, and strike with an elbow instead. You don't throw either, for real, far away. Both are done up close, bascically leaning on each other. That way, for both strikes, the power of your whole body is into the strikes, and the distance traveled is the least amount.

However, I was just going with a punch attack scenario, where it was parried into a knee strike to the ribs/gut. You are now close enough to elbow, or punch. The choice is yours. I was asking for effeciency, if one should go with punches, risking injury, or go with open hand strikes or elbows. I have been asking if we should go with open strikes over punches, or keep punches. Basically what hand strikes do we go with? What one's do we delete?

Intentionaly slipping the punch to put the elbow, instead, means you are throwing blind elbow strikes. You will at least admit that the angles are all changed up.
Sean

 

[Hand Sword]

Nothing blind about them. A parry, with the hands to your right, with a knee, stepping down into a left round elbow for instance, you're not blind, you're looking at them all the way. As for angle changes, yes, probably sometimes, but, same for punches too. Point was, angles aside, elbow strikes could be used over punches in situations if you train that way, like the above scenario. That's all I was getting at. Should we go with punches? Open hand strikes? A combination of both? What do we avoid or delete, and what do we keep?

 

[MJS]

Actually they are. Where does one throw an elbow strike? Where does one throw an uppercut? The fact that an elbow flows off of a punching movement also proves my case. Just as you might throw an uppercut, you could choose to bend the arm a little further, and strike with an elbow instead. You don't throw either, for real, far away. Both are done up close, bascically leaning on each other. That way, for both strikes, the power of your whole body is into the strikes, and the distance traveled is the least amount.

However, I was just going with a punch attack scenario, where it was parried into a knee strike to the ribs/gut. You are now close enough to elbow, or punch. The choice is yours. I was asking for effeciency, if one should go with punches, risking injury, or go with open hand strikes or elbows. I have been asking if we should go with open strikes over punches, or keep punches. Basically what hand strikes do we go with? What one's do we delete?

Maybe I'm just confused because its late, but here is my question. I see what you're saying reagrding the uppercut and elbow and where they originate from. However, if I'm going to throw an elbow to the body, wouldn't it make more sense to make it horizontal rather than vertical?

As for damage to the hands. What are your thoughts on hitting soft targets with the closed fist and hard targets with the open hand strikes?

 

[Hand Sword]

So am I after 18 hrs. of reading and typing up papers for school

For the elbowing to the body, i think that is what I implied above which was just a second explanation of a scenario. The upper elbow was a different scenario that we were discussing. I was just trying tp point out that different elbow strikes could be used over punches, if going off of boxing defensive movements, as your in close. As for the3 damage to the hands, i see nothing wrong with your explanation, and I agree with it. I was just pointing out that sometimes, as both are moving and swinging, misses of those targets occur. Going off the premise of training to cover all of the bases, I brought up the idea that maybe punches were'nt all that necessary to be succesful, and gave an example (above). Just trying to build piece be piece and throwing out all of the ideas to kick the tires a little, with thoughts from everyone. That's all.

 

[Touch Of Death]

Nothing blind about them. A parry, with the hands to your right, with a knee, stepping down into a left round elbow for instance, you're not blind, you're looking at them all the way. As for angle changes, yes, probably sometimes, but, same for punches too. Point was, angles aside, elbow strikes could be used over punches in situations if you train that way, like the above scenario. That's all I was getting at. Should we go with punches? Open hand strikes? A combination of both? What do we avoid or delete, and what do we keep?

So you could do this in the dark?

 

[Hand Sword]

Well...Yes I have. At night, or in a little light, you end up close, as no one swings away when they can't see. They try to grab you instead. So, if you're close, elbows, apply better than punches.

 

[Touch Of Death]

Well...Yes I have. At night, or in a little light, you end up close, as no one swings away when they can't see. They try to grab you instead. So, if you're close, elbows, apply better than punches.

You just can't accept that your better off guaging the elbow shot with your fists. So do slip the uppercutt in your "Flashing Wings"? If so why again? It would simply force you to muscle the shot based on the miss- alignment you choose to miss connection with the fist.
Sean

 

[g-bells]

question?
if your performing sensitevity drills will you not gain a certain amount of flow?

 

[Touch Of Death]

question?
if your performing sensitevity drills will you not gain a certain amount of flow?

I don't see why not.
Sean

 

[Hand Sword]

You just can't accept that your better off guaging the elbow shot with your fists. So do slip the uppercutt in your "Flashing Wings"? If so why again? It would simply force you to muscle the shot based on the miss- alignment you choose to miss connection with the fist.
Sean

We had seemed to come to a system that was realistic self defense based. We were going, so it seemed, with a Boxing stance and footwork, as well as boxing defenses, since they speacialize in dealing with the best punchers. This material would easily let you deal with your flashing wings scenario. The theory was if you can train for the best punchers, you could easily deal with a one puncher, on the street. It's better to be able to deal with both, rather than just one. I then asked , since we had our defense down, which hand strikes do we go with? Some said punches, open hand strikes etc.. I then asked, should punches be kept, as it is likely, you could hurt your hand. You could train the other stuff to take their place, meaning punches weren't really necessary. That's pretty much where we were.
Rather than go back and forth, I'll take your responses as a vote for the current Ken/mpo methods to deal with punches- blocks with stances.

 

[MJS]

Ok...so it seems like we have covered blocks and strikes. Lets move on to kicks. I'd say all of the kicks that we already have are pretty solid, the front, round, instep and side kicks. I think that we should keep the usual focus on the kicks, meaning that they all should really be no higher than chest level. Of course from a closer position, such as a clinch, knees and stomps also come into play.