8-year-old girl's marriage ruled legal

[Carol]

I'm not assuming you write blindly, but our original exchange had to do with how you don't see anything in the media about any clerics condemning the actions of radical Muslims. And my response basically had to do with checking other sources than just what we see in our media. I've noticed that you qualify all your statements by saying 'radical Islam' and not just a condemnation of Islam across the board to your credit, so my point was that if you look at sources other than our media, which you seem exposed to, what do you see and hear? Every Muslim that I've ever spoken to about these issues condemns the actions of radical Muslims. Most disagree with Wahhabism. Even the more conservative, traditionally educated Muslim friends I've known condemn these as against Islam, and as others have shown, terrorism in the name of Islam has been condemned by numerous Muslims leaders.

Blindsage...please pardon me butting in are you sure that you are referring to Yorkshire Lad?

(It was Archangel that was originally asking about condemnation by Islamic establishemnts)

 

[Carol]

Sorry about that, i will backtrack to inform myself better.


Still almost just as messed up if not even more devious. Although it is at least good to know that there is no kid getting molested in the name of marriage.

The issue isn't deviousness. Ultimately it is poverty, a lack of education, and the forceful nature of Wahab'iism that keeping much of the Saudi citizenry in cycles of poverty.

Its easy to paint a culture that we do not agree with as being replete with these evil horrible monsters. But please think about this question...what sane parent truly wants to sell their kid? Saudi parents love their children, and want the best for them.

Saudi Arabia may have oil, but the wealth is controlled by a few select families. Many in the citizenry are uneducated and in poverty. The original article states that the arrangement was made because the family was buried in debt.

At the heart of the father's decision was most likely a desperate hope for his daughter to have a better life. Arranged marriages are the way of the land there and they are not as evil or punitive as the western media makes them out to be (but that's a topic for another day).

It is most likely that the father is the breadwinner of the family, and he likely realized that 10 years from now, they will still be a devastatingly poor family and that the most likely match for his daughter will be a devastatingly poor man. Making the arrangements for her to marry his wealthy (or at least, wealthier) creditor may have been the only realistic way he saw to break the oppressive cycle of poverty that their family is in.

I do think the choice is wrong. (For that matter, Saudis would typically think my choice of not having children and getting divorced is also wrong). But the reason behind this father's decision isn't because Islam is and wants child molesters. Its the oppressive nature of the powerful fundamentalists that are unwilling to give up their control, and the radical extremists that choose to force their will with violence.

 

[arnisador]

If a middle eastern country such as Afghanistan tried to "correct" these things in our country, it would be toward eliminating abortion rights altogether, doing away with health care for the unemployed and making ghettos and poverty more acceptable...after all, that's pretty much what they have over there right now.

Or were you being ironic?

No, I was speaking more generally of things some other country might like to correct about us. The Soviet Union used to harp on several of those things, for example.

 

[blindsage]

Carol, this is the quote that started our exchange, from page 6 I believe.

I wouldn't minds as much if Islamic clerics spoke out against such violence, but they don't, and all we hear about from the media is how bad the US is for dunking a few of these idiots upside down in a bath in Guantanamo bay and playing loud hair metal music to torture them.

But thanks for keeping me honest.

 

[Carol]

Carol, this is the quote that started our exchange, from page 6 I believe.



But thanks for keeping me honest.

Ahhh OK. Sorry about that... Thanks for keeping me honest too.

 

[yorkshirelad]

Ahhh OK. Sorry about that... Thanks for keeping me honest too.

And thanks to both of you for keeping me honest. You are absolutely correct Blindsage. I did say that I cannot find clerics in the Islamic world who are speaking out against the fanatics. The truth is, I have not been looking for them. It's easy to say "I can't find" when you really don't look.

It really is amazing to me that three monotheistic religious philosophies can have so much hate toward eachother. Then for each of these philosophies to have sub-branches that also hate eachother. If we could somehow get Abraham, Moses, Jesus and Mohammad in a room together, I wonder how each of them would process the world we live in today?

What it boils down to is that there is one little girl in Saudi Arabia who is in for alot of heartache in the future and it's a shame.

 

[Scott T]

It really is amazing to me that three monotheistic religious philosophies can have so much hate toward eachother. Then for each of these philosophies to have sub-branches that also hate eachother. If we could somehow get Abraham, Moses, Jesus and Mohammad in a room together, I wonder how each of them would process the world we live in today?

I'd like to think they would publicly despise the stupidity of those followers who promote and thrive on that hate, myself.

 

[arnisador]

"So Jesus, how 'bout them Crusades?"

 

[yorkshirelad]

"So Jesus, how 'bout them Crusades?"

Jesus replies, "Don't blame me mate! If I'd have been in Jerusalem at the same time as the crusaders, they would have probably killed me too."

Sad but true.

 

[Scott T]

Jesus replies, "Don't blame me mate! If I'd have been in Jerusalem at the same time as the crusaders, they would have probably killed me too."

Sad but true.

LMAO! Oh, that is great!

 

[Deaf Smith]

It really is amazing to me that three monotheistic religious philosophies can have so much hate toward each other.

I don't know about all three. Christianity has changed alot in 2000 years. For the first several hundred it was one of love and forgiveness. The Church changed whole countries (even Rome.) It really is based on love. The ‘eye for an eye’ is not in the New Testament.

But later, as the bureaucracy grew larger and larger, and the Muslim faith reared its head, the Church became more militaristic (and ironically more like they very thing they were against.) The Muslims, from day one, WERE militaristic (much like the Jews were for thousands of years.)

And thus we had a series of wars to control Jerusalem. And it wasn’t till the 17th century that the Church started to TRY to go back to the way Jesus taught (that is forgiveness and love.)

Both the Muslim and the Jewish faiths do adhere to ‘eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth” and thus they war on each other incessantly. Their hate runs deep, on both sides, and they have a hard time getting rid of it. Anwar Sadat tried…. and died. Menachem Begin tried… and died. Those were two great leaders and peace makers. Note that the ones that murdered them were their own countrymen! Yes Muslims killed Sadat, and a Jewish extremists killed Begin!

We will not see peace in the Middle East till maybe 500 years. When, like the Hatfields and McCoys, they realize they don’t even remember how it started and why they are still killing each other.

But Christianity has grown up. Sure there are some bigots in it, but as a whole, it has grown up. It really is a religion of peace.

Deaf

 

[Archangel M]

"So Jesus, how 'bout them Crusades?"

Hey. Your an American right?...how about what you did to those Native Americans and Slaves?

I tire of continuing to lay blame for the past on present institutions. Espically when there is nobody left living that could concieveably be held personally responsible.

 

[arnisador]

It really is a religion of peace.

Evidence to support this contention is lacking.

Hey. Your an American right?...how about what you did to those Native Americans and Slaves?

Done by Christians and justified by Christianity (e.g., see Robert E. Lee's views on the matter of slavery). The fundamental intolerance of Christianity--believe as we believe or be tortured for all eternity in pits of fire--hasn't changed, to the best of my knowledge. It's that sense of moral superiority that was used to justify the actions motivated by greed.

Look at the indifference displayed by the Catholic Church to the suffering wrought by AIDS in Africa:
Vatican decries reaction to pope's condom remarks.

In a strongly worded statement, the Vatican defended the pope's view that condoms aren't the answer to Africa's AIDS epidemic and could make it worse. On his way to Africa last month, he said the best strategy is the church's effort to promote sexual responsibility through abstinence and monogamy.
[...]
France, Germany, the United Nations' AIDS-fighting agency and the British medical journal The Lancet called the remarks irresponsible and dangerous. The Belgian parliament passed a resolution calling them "unacceptable"

The Catholic Church has actually softened on science over the years as science has laid false many of its claims, but to discourage people from using condoms by claiming that they don't help and make things worse is downright malicious (and flatly contradicted by every study ever performed on the subject). It's one thing to say that good Catholics should not use condoms, but it's an altogether different matter to make a pronouncement on their effectiveness and claim they make things worse. If anyone relies on that advice and gets AIDS then perhaps they'll have grounds to sue the Church.

 

[Twin Fist]

No, there is plenty, as in "a metric *** ton" of evidence that supports the claim that compared to islam and judaism, Christianity has in fact grown up.

some people may not have, but the FACT is that chrisitanity is by a large margin a force for good in the world.

I wont guess why you refuse to see it, but i have an idea....

Evidence to support this contention is lacking.

 

[Archangel M]

No, there is plenty, as in "a metric *** ton" of evidence that supports the claim that compared to islam and judaism, Christianity has in fact grown up.

some people may not have, but the FACT is that chrisitanity is by a large margin a force for good in the world.

I wont guess why you refuse to see it, but i have an idea....

It's because it supports their worldview. The same self-loathing, the sky is falling, defeatist worldview that we seem to have had since the 60's.

Some seem to think that "things have gotten worse"..as in there was some golden age of peace that we have lost.

Others seem to just enjoy wallowing in cynicism.

Im a lapsed Catholic, but the few times that I do manage to make mass a year..I am always impressed with the message of peace and tolerance that I hear. People seem to equate not approving of some group or belief as "intollerance"...upon which I call BS. While issues like say abortion are obviously against the Churches doctrine, I have NEVER heard any sermon reccommending anything other than prayer for those who are considering it.

Now that I think of it..how many other mainstream religions preach outright violence anymore?

 

[Carol]

Now that I think of it..how many other mainstream religions preach outright violence anymore?

They don't. It's not religions that fail, its the people. Why they fail is the tougher question. But I'm pretty sure the answer isn't because Religion A is better than Religion B.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

"AIDS is the wrath of a just God against homosexuals. To oppose it would be like an Israelite jumping in the Red Sea to save one of Pharaoh's charioteers ... AIDS is not just God's punishment for homosexuals; it is God's punishment for the society that tolerates homosexuals."
Rev. Jerry Falwell

"Maybe we need a very small nuke thrown off on Foggy Bottom to shake things up"
Pat Robertson, on nuking the State Department

"You know, I don't know about this doctrine of assassination, but if he thinks we're trying to assassinate him, I think that we really ought to go ahead and do it. It's a whole lot cheaper than starting a war ... We have the ability to take him out, and I think the time has come that we exercise that ability. We don't need another $200 billion war to get rid of one, you know, strong-arm dictator. It's a whole lot easier to have some of the covert operatives do the job and then get it over with."
Pat Robertson, calling for the assassination of Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez


I see a number of these so called "Christians" preaching hate, bigotry, murder, etc. I see them calling for camps, and making comically ignorant comments like that a good woman should be quiet, know her place and know who the man is. I can spend a few hours, comb the web and fill a few pages with quotes, and scriptural references, but I'd rather get some sleep.

I can also spend a few hours, find a good number of quotes from other Christian ministers (notice, no " here) preaching hope, peace, understanding, etc. You know, guys who don't blame God having piss poor aim that requires him to wipe out whole cities to kill a few gays or Muslims. But again, I'd rather get some sleep.

Bottom line, there are extremist wack jobs in all religions who have their heads and their flocks up their ***. Someday, most people will grow beyond such stuff. Until then, we argue.

 

[Carol]

And there are plenty of people that have a leadership role in Christian organization that are committing violent crimes against other people. I'm not even going to cite cases like the fringe nutjobs that perform violence at abortion clinics or the shameful acts that occurred in the Archdiocese of Boston (as well as other places).

If one can accept that all Christians are not like the example below, then it shouldn't be too tough to accept that all Muslims are not like the examples in the media...even if Islam is not one's particular cup of tea.

And yes, I consider sex crimes to be violent, but I'm not sure other Americans do. Perhaps in the case of these alleged criminals, if the word "stab" or "shoot" was used instead of "sex" there would be more of an outcry.



April 6, 2009

http://coloradoindependent.com/2591...-older-guys-focus-employee-asked-teenage-girl

“Do you like older guys?” a 42-year-old Colorado Springs man who listed his employer as evangelical ministry Focus on the Family asked 11 minutes after initiating contact in an Internet chat room with a girl he believed to be younger than 15, according to an arrest affidavit released Monday by the Jefferson County District Attorney’s Office...he was arrested on two felony counts in Lakewood after arranging to meet the girl for sex

December 3, 2008

http://www.wcpo.com/news/local/stor...ted-For-Sex-Crime/LLDoYFdbeEefQf4B18_fuw.cspx

A leader of a local Christian University is facing sex charges following an arrest at Mount Airy Forest Saturday morning.
Police arrested Robert Williams and charged him with sexual imposition for allegedly grabbing an undercover officer in a sexual manner.

July 5, 2007

http://blog.nola.com/times-picayune/2007/07/associate_pastor_in_slidell_bo.html

A volunteer associate pastor at Immanuel Baptist Church of Slidell was booked Tuesday on two counts of aggravated sex crimes involving juveniles and 47 counts of possession of child pornography, authorities said.

February 27, 2009

http://groups.google.com/group/sci.lang/browse_thread/thread/77f2ee3526a9db63

A former chaplain in Rwanda's armed forces was sentenced
today to 25 years for the abduction, murder and sexual
assault of Tutsi civilians by the United Nations tribunal
set up to deal with the mass killings that engulfed the
tiny African country in 1994.

August 10, 2006

http://www.portlandmercury.com/portland/Content?oid=51719&category=22101

Lou Beres, former executive director of the Oregon Christian Coalition and former chair of the Multnomah County Republican Party, confessed to police that he has sexually touched underage girls—including a young sister-in-law, according to a Gresham Police report dated September 13, 2005

 

[kaizasosei]

This type of ****(examples) is probably just the tip of the iceberg. Sleezy piece of ****(ignorant and false) scum like this is in position of power, religious power to top. It is because *****(terrible monsters) like that are occupying the positions and blocking the way for the rightious, that the better people are forced into silence and being losers with hardly enough to feed themselves. There must be someone that can see clearly and delicately weed out such grotesque leaders. I mean, maybe maybe they have the stuff to help an old lady across the street, but what kind of real goodness can molesting unbelivers even do? Chances are, that it's not just cases of molestation, but every socalled good action and tip of the hat that comes from them is a drop of poison in the soup of society. Too bad their just so ****in' crafty



j

 

[yorkshirelad]

It looks like we should all reflect on faith and try to understand how it has shaped our communities and our own personal outlook. Even those who lack faith in our society have been moulded into a Judeo/christian belief system. It's discouraging to see some of the hateful things written by the so called leaders in the 'christian' community, and therefore throw the proverbial baby out with the bathwater.

I have to admit that I have had predudices that have been influenced by my quasi christian beliefs. I say "quasi" because I believe in God and the message of Jesus, but on my own terms and haven't for a long time picked up a Bible or gone to church for that matter.

This discussion has been a real eye opener and quite uncomfortable, because my so called 'traditional' views have been questioned and in some cases torn apart completely. I just think that people should just go back to basics. If a church leader expresses a view that is hateful and bigotted just look to the Bible for an answer. If the 2 don't connect...Hey presto.

I have been disillusioned with the Catholic church for years, due to the decades of sex crimes perpetrated against children. I've only been back for funerals. I don't however, believe that it is right to blame the Catholic church for the AIDS crises in Africa. I think it's too complicated a problem. There are many factors including; poverty, corrupt governments, misappropriation of aid, and personal responsibility to consider. The church always been philanthropic in the developing world and has alleveated much suffering.

When it comes down to it we should all take a piece of advice from the great Bard "Above all things, to thine own self be true."

Thanks for all the insight people, I've learned alot here.