bdparsons
Black Belt
Poggy said:
So this is where the line is between being attacked by thugs and becoming one yourself.
Bill Parsons
Triangle Kenpo Institute
4 Attackers
- Thread starter Poggy
- Start date
So this is where the line is between being attacked by thugs and becoming one yourself.
Bill Parsons
Triangle Kenpo Institute
- Thread Starter
- #22
"So this is where the line is between being attacked by thugs and becoming one yourself."
This is very true... but sometimes in life... you've got to think "**** it"
Sorry to all the other English on here.. but England absolutely sucks!!! It really does. From money to chavs... oh and the weather!! everything here really does suck!!
Everyone i've told (that knows the lads) have said that they only attacked me in a gang because they know if they were on their own... they wouldn't stand a chance. They really wouldn't. Most people in this town have a REPUTATION for been "hard"... and they get that by using a gang to beat someone up. Individually they're as much threat as an ant to an elephant.
Sorry lol i get really wound up just thinking about what happened.
I think i've already said this, but the hardest thing is NOT getting in my car, going round to their houses and making sure them come off worse than i have done from their attack.
Thanks for all your replies though Been so wound up about what happened and then coming on here, reading your messages, etc calms me down. (don't ask lol)
This is very true... but sometimes in life... you've got to think "**** it"
Sorry to all the other English on here.. but England absolutely sucks!!! It really does. From money to chavs... oh and the weather!! everything here really does suck!!
Everyone i've told (that knows the lads) have said that they only attacked me in a gang because they know if they were on their own... they wouldn't stand a chance. They really wouldn't. Most people in this town have a REPUTATION for been "hard"... and they get that by using a gang to beat someone up. Individually they're as much threat as an ant to an elephant.
Sorry lol i get really wound up just thinking about what happened.
I think i've already said this, but the hardest thing is NOT getting in my car, going round to their houses and making sure them come off worse than i have done from their attack.
Thanks for all your replies though
Been so wound up about what happened and then coming on here, reading your messages, etc calms me down. (don't ask lol)- Thread Starter
- #23
Bammx2 said:Poggy...
I'm an american living and teaching here in the UK and I understand completely what you've been saying about multiples!
And I am sorry to say...no offence to you at all...there is NO honour here!
Hence the multiple attackers.
I have been in that situation and I have done the rvenge thing of finding them one at a time...legally,bad idea.(but we know what the law is like here the UK!)
Morally........
Law or justice....hhmm.....
It does give them something to think about the next time they think about jumping someone!
That's the one down side to sorting this out myself... the law will then be against me!
Having said that... the police (well the policeman dealing with this incident) is really good actually. He keeps ringing to make sure i'm ok. He was going to come round, but i went out for a couple of minutes, and whilst i was out he rang to ask if it's ok to come round and get a statement. Typical really! Anyway.. he's coming round tomorrow at 2.30 hehe
Everytime i talk to my mate about what happened, he tells me more stuff that i did that i can't remember! He has to tell me before i can remember. Weird isn't it?! THe memory will be like a little flashback. Might be because of been hit in the head?
This whole incident has also made me realise... i train a lot for kicking & punching... but i need to start to concentrate more on grappling too!
Fighting Against Multiple Opponents (http://clearsilat.com/silat/Articles/MultipleAttackers.htm)Copyright 2002 - by Gerald Love
Fighting multiple attackers is a situation every rational martial artist fears, and with good reason. As artists we train with a few basic ideas that make this particularly terrifying. In this article I will attempt to explain, in relatively generic terms, the assumptions we must make, and methods we must use to survive the multiple-attacker scenario.
Assumptions
Let's start with the assumptions made in general of martial situations and the ones we need to make in regards to this situation. The first assumption is in regards to the opponent's skill and ability. There is an old axiom in fighting to never assume that your opponent is inferior to yourself in fighting ability. This is typically a very good perspective, as it prevents you from acting from a position of overconfidence. The problem appears when you attempt to apply this logic to a multiple-attacker situation. As the old "could you defeat two of yourself" argument goes, the chance of prevailing against two or more opponents under that assumption is so low that many martial arts have chose to ignore that line of training all-together.
That said, let's make some new paradigms. We don't know how good our opponent or opponents are; we shall assume from a tactic standpoint that they are as good or better as we are; this encourages us to only fight in situations where we would fight even if we knew we were going to loose. Since I think this is a good acid test for "should I fight or run", this works well. Though we have decided to train with that mentality, we recognize none-the-less that we, as martial artists, have devoted our time and sweat to becoming better fighters, and the reality is that our opponents on the street are likely to be less-capable fighters than we are. Therefore, it is quite possible to win the multiple-opponent situation. Further, since the fight has been forced, we have no real option but to try to win, so let's move on.
The Setup
So how do we accomplish it? Well, all situations and artists are unique. Let's get the obvious out of the way. Don't be there. That is, attempt escape or de-escalation from the moment you realize the danger. Start trying to position yourself near the exit, near the wall, near the bouncer, whatever from the beginning, even as you are trying to end the situation. I'll start with the assumption that this has failed and combat has started with you surrounded; if you start already at the outside, then you will have accomplished the first few steps anyway.
Rule one of all fights, especially multiple-attacker fights, is "keep moving". Be in motion before the fight starts and don't stand still. When you stand still, that allows your opponents to choose to hit you on their terms and all at once, you will go down and you will loose.
Rule two, you want to be able to see all of them. This means that you don't want to be in the "middle of the circle". You want to move to the outside of your opponents so that all of your opponents are in the smallest arc in-front of you that you can manage (a 360 degree circle is bad, all lined up in a 5 degree arc is good). How you will move from the inside to the outside will vary based on your art and situation. The first, easiest, way, is if there is an opening in their group that you can run through. If there is a wall (or better, an exit) there wonderful. A wall makes sure that they cannot get behind you again. Be wary, however of corners for they are mixed blessings, you limit your opponents to a 90 degree arc, but you are also immobile. (remember rule one)
The Fight
If there is not a hole already there for you, you are going to have to make one. There are a couple ways to do so, and your training will determine which you can use. Our first choice is available on video (tape 1s24), you may be able to charge through someone close, or grapple and reverse position; the details of how any individual should best accomplish this is beyond the scope of this article.
Once you have some sort of tenable position the fighting begins. You usually want to fight the most aggressive opponent; one good reason for this is he will be the closest to you (being the most aggressive) and therefore the most convenient target. It's important to keep moving (rule 1) and to make sure they don't get behind you again. I find that baiting attacks is useful for this; offer a target and withdraw it in order to lure your closest opponent into committing to an attack at your prompting.
If someone gets in real close, beat them around and use them as a shield against the others; but if they manage to make a good-effort escape or someone gets past them, let go and move to the next guy; you don't want to let yourself get tied up with one person when another has moved into position (remember you need to remain mobile).
Keep looking for that escape position, while you may exhaust all of your opponents, that's unlikely enough that you should be really using this as a tactic to escape. If that's really not possible, look to clutter the battlefield as much as possible, make them work to get to you, so you can have less to deal with at a single time.
If there is no way to maneuver to escape, then you should look at relatively quick methods of removing opponents from the fight. What that is will vary based on available weapons and your skills and tactics. Mechanical disables (hyperextensions of knees and ankles), rendering unconscious or dead, and virtual disables (blinding) are all effective methods of removing someone from pursuit and effectively fighting you. If you disable one attacker then move, you are fighting that many less; disable enough and the fight is over.
Fighting multiple attackers is a situation every rational martial artist fears, and with good reason. As artists we train with a few basic ideas that make this particularly terrifying. In this article I will attempt to explain, in relatively generic terms, the assumptions we must make, and methods we must use to survive the multiple-attacker scenario.
Assumptions
Let's start with the assumptions made in general of martial situations and the ones we need to make in regards to this situation. The first assumption is in regards to the opponent's skill and ability. There is an old axiom in fighting to never assume that your opponent is inferior to yourself in fighting ability. This is typically a very good perspective, as it prevents you from acting from a position of overconfidence. The problem appears when you attempt to apply this logic to a multiple-attacker situation. As the old "could you defeat two of yourself" argument goes, the chance of prevailing against two or more opponents under that assumption is so low that many martial arts have chose to ignore that line of training all-together.
That said, let's make some new paradigms. We don't know how good our opponent or opponents are; we shall assume from a tactic standpoint that they are as good or better as we are; this encourages us to only fight in situations where we would fight even if we knew we were going to loose. Since I think this is a good acid test for "should I fight or run", this works well. Though we have decided to train with that mentality, we recognize none-the-less that we, as martial artists, have devoted our time and sweat to becoming better fighters, and the reality is that our opponents on the street are likely to be less-capable fighters than we are. Therefore, it is quite possible to win the multiple-opponent situation. Further, since the fight has been forced, we have no real option but to try to win, so let's move on.
The Setup
So how do we accomplish it? Well, all situations and artists are unique. Let's get the obvious out of the way. Don't be there. That is, attempt escape or de-escalation from the moment you realize the danger. Start trying to position yourself near the exit, near the wall, near the bouncer, whatever from the beginning, even as you are trying to end the situation. I'll start with the assumption that this has failed and combat has started with you surrounded; if you start already at the outside, then you will have accomplished the first few steps anyway.
Rule one of all fights, especially multiple-attacker fights, is "keep moving". Be in motion before the fight starts and don't stand still. When you stand still, that allows your opponents to choose to hit you on their terms and all at once, you will go down and you will loose.
Rule two, you want to be able to see all of them. This means that you don't want to be in the "middle of the circle". You want to move to the outside of your opponents so that all of your opponents are in the smallest arc in-front of you that you can manage (a 360 degree circle is bad, all lined up in a 5 degree arc is good). How you will move from the inside to the outside will vary based on your art and situation. The first, easiest, way, is if there is an opening in their group that you can run through. If there is a wall (or better, an exit) there wonderful. A wall makes sure that they cannot get behind you again. Be wary, however of corners for they are mixed blessings, you limit your opponents to a 90 degree arc, but you are also immobile. (remember rule one)
The Fight
If there is not a hole already there for you, you are going to have to make one. There are a couple ways to do so, and your training will determine which you can use. Our first choice is available on video (tape 1s24), you may be able to charge through someone close, or grapple and reverse position; the details of how any individual should best accomplish this is beyond the scope of this article.
Once you have some sort of tenable position the fighting begins. You usually want to fight the most aggressive opponent; one good reason for this is he will be the closest to you (being the most aggressive) and therefore the most convenient target. It's important to keep moving (rule 1) and to make sure they don't get behind you again. I find that baiting attacks is useful for this; offer a target and withdraw it in order to lure your closest opponent into committing to an attack at your prompting.
If someone gets in real close, beat them around and use them as a shield against the others; but if they manage to make a good-effort escape or someone gets past them, let go and move to the next guy; you don't want to let yourself get tied up with one person when another has moved into position (remember you need to remain mobile).
Keep looking for that escape position, while you may exhaust all of your opponents, that's unlikely enough that you should be really using this as a tactic to escape. If that's really not possible, look to clutter the battlefield as much as possible, make them work to get to you, so you can have less to deal with at a single time.
If there is no way to maneuver to escape, then you should look at relatively quick methods of removing opponents from the fight. What that is will vary based on available weapons and your skills and tactics. Mechanical disables (hyperextensions of knees and ankles), rendering unconscious or dead, and virtual disables (blinding) are all effective methods of removing someone from pursuit and effectively fighting you. If you disable one attacker then move, you are fighting that many less; disable enough and the fight is over.
RBaddorf
Green Belt
Poggy,
How far are you from Surrey or Middlesex?
Surrey=Leon Jay
Middlesex=Paul Bowman
How far are you from Surrey or Middlesex?
Surrey=Leon Jay
Middlesex=Paul Bowman
still learning
Senior Master
- Joined
- Nov 8, 2004
- Messages
- 3,749
- Reaction score
- 48
Hello, You were lucky they didn't use weapons of any kind. The worst thing you can do is stay there and fight back.
There is video tape in my library and I can't find it(to many). But the person in the tape is a street fighter type. He recommends shooting to the nearst person with your two hands towards his shoulder, shove and turn the guy and keep moving on. You can keeping doing this till the you can find a chance to run away. There were other things too, but this is what I remember most. They show a example of a person at a ATM machine being approach by four guys. Looks like it works.
Note: if possible shove the guy into the next guy and keep them in front of each other. ("The Art of war) good book!
Awareness and Avoid - This is the true meaning of our training! ......Aloha
There is video tape in my library and I can't find it(to many). But the person in the tape is a street fighter type. He recommends shooting to the nearst person with your two hands towards his shoulder, shove and turn the guy and keep moving on. You can keeping doing this till the you can find a chance to run away. There were other things too, but this is what I remember most. They show a example of a person at a ATM machine being approach by four guys. Looks like it works.
Note: if possible shove the guy into the next guy and keep them in front of each other. ("The Art of war) good book!
Awareness and Avoid - This is the true meaning of our training! ......Aloha
- Thread Starter
- #27
RBaddorf, i'm not sure how far i live from there.
Do you know Telford/Shrewsbury? I live close to there! (About 15 miles away).
Well just finished giving a statement to the police Hopefully the lads will be arrested next week. The same police constable is going to deal with it. HE STOLE MY PEN!!! lol i've jus realised! i let him borrow my pen, and hes taken it! grr n cops r meant to be honest
Anyway, just a quick update (really useful info for ya'll)... i'm ok now. jus keep picking little bits of dried blood outa my ear, and a bit of a snore nose.
Had victim support ring me yesterday. I told them the only help i want is anger management - so i dont go kil the lads (but that was meant as a joke).
Anyway, it's all very well watching videos stilllearning, but at the time the adrenaline/whatever won't always allow you to simply push your way out. I doubt id have been able to push out of that... the lads are my height and a bit bigger build. I'm only about 140 pounds (10 stone)
As for avoidance... i'll be doing a lot of that now, well until the police have seen the lads. Don't want any more incidents. BUt then again, it'd go against them anyway!
Do you know Telford/Shrewsbury? I live close to there! (About 15 miles away).
Well just finished giving a statement to the police
Hopefully the lads will be arrested next week. The same police constable is going to deal with it. HE STOLE MY PEN!!! lol i've jus realised! i let him borrow my pen, and hes taken it! grr n cops r meant to be honestAnyway, just a quick update (really useful info for ya'll)... i'm ok now. jus keep picking little bits of dried blood outa my ear, and a bit of a snore nose.
Had victim support ring me yesterday. I told them the only help i want is anger management - so i dont go kil the lads
(but that was meant as a joke).Anyway, it's all very well watching videos stilllearning, but at the time the adrenaline/whatever won't always allow you to simply push your way out. I doubt id have been able to push out of that... the lads are my height and a bit bigger build. I'm only about 140 pounds (10 stone)
As for avoidance... i'll be doing a lot of that now, well until the police have seen the lads. Don't want any more incidents. BUt then again, it'd go against them anyway!
MichiganTKD
Master Black Belt
One of our black belt students was in Chicago years ago with a friend of his when four guys with knives attacked. From what I was told, he took out two of them with front kicks, and the other two ran away. After it was over, and he realized that he could have been killed, he threw up into the nearest garbage can.
Conclusion:
1. Don't think-respond automatically
2. Keep moving
3. Stick with basics.
Conclusion:
1. Don't think-respond automatically
2. Keep moving
3. Stick with basics.
RBaddorf
Green Belt
Poggy
I am not very familier with where things are in the UK. I think Surrey is south west of London, and Middlesex is north east of London. Hope that helps.
Ron
I am not very familier with where things are in the UK. I think Surrey is south west of London, and Middlesex is north east of London. Hope that helps.
Ron
C
Clive
Guest
Well one thing that really made this difficult is the fact that you had to look out for your friend. In a mass attack you cannot be stationary, you have to keep moving otherwise you become a easy target for lots of people. Look for the gap, if there is a space between two people, aim for it, thats your exit, if there isnt one then make one. Don't concentrate on one guy or you will have that same problem of being attacked from the rear.
But the fact that you immediately want to go out and get these guys suggests you need to focus on your own anger and ability to control it. I had a similar problem with guys from a big family where I live and you are right they are nothing on their own, but if you walk near them or past them you are a potential target. Simple solution - avoid them. You never know one day one of them may need your help.
But the fact that you immediately want to go out and get these guys suggests you need to focus on your own anger and ability to control it. I had a similar problem with guys from a big family where I live and you are right they are nothing on their own, but if you walk near them or past them you are a potential target. Simple solution - avoid them. You never know one day one of them may need your help.
Bammx2
2nd Black Belt
Clive said:
I must admit...I got the snot kicked out of me when I was a kid by a group of guys once and I repaid the favor by bailing the biggest out of a fight about 6 months later.I never got bothered again
- Thread Starter
- #32
Clive said:
I'm totally aware of this. I can control my anger (otherwise i would have beat at least one lad by now as i passed him yesterday and he was on his own), but i need to sort myself so that i never feel this way in the first place!
If any of them ever need me help... they can keep crying for it because they simply will not get it. They're known through town and disliked by all. Even one of their own brothers totaly hates them (he's out with my g/fs best mates sister lol and my gf told him what happened - he told me to make sure i press charges!!)
RBaddorf: That's hundreds of miles away from me lol I live in the West Midlands.
Oh well.... only about 6 more days and the lads won't be free to walk around starting trouble anymore hehe (the police have my statement, are getting witness statements today and tomorrow, and then next week when PC Martin (the policeman dealing with it) is back on, he'll arrest them.
Simon Curran
2nd Black Belt
Let's just hope the court system does what it is supposed to.Poggy said:
Simon Curran
2nd Black Belt
Yep, the internet is great.Poggy said:
Bammx2
2nd Black Belt
Now thats funny!!SIMONCURRAN said:
Simon,you have been gone from here way too long!
You lucky man!
But seriously,it would be really great if the courts did do at least, this one right.
Dude... when we have 2 on 1 sparring matches, that's hard enough!
If you absolutely must fight, try to keep all of them within your field of vision, always using one as a shield from the others by keeping him between you and them (kinda hard with four people!). If you're surrounded, send attacks flying in all directions, never focusing on one guy too long (one or two attacks each) and (obviously) try to get out. Make up for being outnumbered by attacking faster.
Kudos for coming out on top :asian:
Keep us posted on how the lawsuit goes.
~ Loki
If you absolutely must fight, try to keep all of them within your field of vision, always using one as a shield from the others by keeping him between you and them (kinda hard with four people!). If you're surrounded, send attacks flying in all directions, never focusing on one guy too long (one or two attacks each) and (obviously) try to get out. Make up for being outnumbered by attacking faster.
Kudos for coming out on top :asian:
Keep us posted on how the lawsuit goes.
~ Loki
Loki said:
Good point!! Anytime you're facing more than 1 person, using one as a shield is a good way to go. Obviously, you don't want to tie up too long with the guy, but it may buy you a few seconds to allow for an escape. In addition, the sight of one of the guys getting pounded may make the others think twice about attacking you.
Mike
Mike
Simon Curran
2nd Black Belt
:roflmao:Bammx2 said:Now thats funny!!
Simon,you have been gone from here way too long!
You lucky man!
But seriously,it would be really great if the courts did do at least, this one right.
Point taken...
- Thread Starter
- #40
Next time... i might just breathe on the lads hehe
had a cold for 2 weeks now!! n nose is blocked so i breathe through my mouth all the time... damn!! it aint pleasant :-/
saw the lads last night... walked past with a big smile on their faces, so they got one back (guess they don't know what's about to happen to em hehe), then my gf went mad and tried to chase em, but i pulled her back. bless her heart
hehehad a cold for 2 weeks now!! n nose is blocked so i breathe through my mouth all the time... damn!! it aint pleasant :-/
saw the lads last night... walked past with a big smile on their faces, so they got one back (guess they don't know what's about to happen to em hehe), then my gf went mad and tried to chase em, but i pulled her back. bless her heart
