Your thoughts on these locks?

[Taiji Rebel]

It would work on the guy in the video unless he's git a lot of flexibility. Throw a few punches and kicks and he'll give all the resistance that's needed to lock him

Punches and kicks are unnecessary - on these forums there is a lot of talk about punching and kicking. People here seem unable to look beyond the base levels and understand the deeper principles of martial practices.

“The true science of martial arts means practicing them in such a way that they will be useful at any time, and to teach them in such a way that they will be useful in all things" - Miyamoto Musashi

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Could potentially have Ehler Danlos syndrome. I've had a few people like that, one of whom was confirmed to have EDS.

Today I took a few of my guys up to train Chi na with Dr Yang. I brought flexi joints guy to see if Dr Yang could lock him. He did, but it took elbow control to make it happen.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Punches and kicks are unnecessary - on these forums there is a lot of talk about punching and kicking. People here seem unable to look beyond the base levels and understand the deeper principles of martial practices.

“The true science of martial arts means practicing them in such a way that they will be useful at any time, and to teach them in such a way that they will be useful in all things" - Miyamoto Musashi

I fundamentally disagree with your premise here. Punching and kicking can have every bit the same nuance as any other type of fighting. Please illuminate us on the deeper principles as you define them.

 

[drop bear]

I fundamentally disagree with your premise here. Punching and kicking can have every bit the same nuance as any other type of fighting. Please illuminate us on the deeper principles as you define them.

My issue with punches and kicks is in this specific context is.

They are almost always better than wrist locks. And for that matter a lot of wrestling holds are better than wrist locks. So if we include punches and kicks then we may as well throw wristlocks out.

And the same people who say punches and kicks. Are generally not very good at them.

 

[drop bear]

So for example. Wrestling has these absolutely fabulous arm controls and isolations that actually work.

And these arm controls make wrist locks about a thousand times easier.

But Wrestling will go for a single leg or a snap or something better.

If we were to say punching. Then it would be put him on all fours and punch him from there where you have all the advantages. Rather than punch him from a 50/50 position where he can just as easily punch you. Then wrist lock him.

It's just a long dangerous way to get to where you want to be.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

So for example. Wrestling has these absolutely fabulous arm controls and isolations that actually work.

And these arm controls make wrist locks about a thousand times easier.

But Wrestling will go for a single leg or a snap or something better.

If we were to say punching. Then it would be put him on all fours and punch him from there where you have all the advantages. Rather than punch him from a 50/50 position where he can just as easily punch you. Then wrist lock him.

It's just a long dangerous way to get to where you want to be.

Right, it’s only one tool in the tool box. I just want to look for opportunities as they appear, I don’t try to have a plan, I try to have options, I try to make it reflexive instead of reactive. I’m no joint lock expert. I know a few, but I’m more punch/kick/sweep/throw. I know down on all fours sounds good for the ring but not so good in a parking lot, and not so good on knees starting their 6 th decade. I prefer to stay on my feet in any case, If I have a plan, I plan on running away, and looking good doing it.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Obviously I think the magic component is far fetched.

I have hit all those locks on people

And there are subtle ways to defeat them when the student isn't really putting a lot of pressure in them. That instructor is cheating and telling the student it's magic.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

You shouldn’t have to jack them on to get them to work.

And if you do. You ultimately run out of people to wrist lock.

I think their point was that when you're being gentle, there are body mechanics that can prevent the lock from reaching the locking point. There was a more senior belt I trained with for a while who was just a jerk. He had one of the more-junior black belts convinced he was just built differently because stuff didn't work on him. The other guy hadn't yet figured out some of the subtle stuff, so I showed him how easily those forms could be disrupted, and what stopped those disruptions from working, if you just didn't stick to the form. It's a jerk move, unless you're doing an exercise to work on those subtle things.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

The guy in the green fails to apply the locks, because is is only focused on the wrist. He is the one with the broken structure and off balance, while trying to apply the lock to the other guy.... who is on balance and structurally sound.

When the guy in pink applies his magic.... he is applying his magic through the wrist to the elbow, then to the shoulder. He is effecting the other guys structure and balance. He is good, so these are subtle. But, he is concentrating on the whole body not just the wrist. He uses the wrist to get the elbow, the elbow to get the shoulder, the should to get the spine.

I picked up the term "conjunctive locking" somewhere along the line (not from my instructors, so a seminar, probably) to describe that.

 

[Taiji Rebel]

I fundamentally disagree with your premise here. Punching and kicking can have every bit the same nuance as any other type of fighting. Please illuminate us on the deeper principles as you define them.

In what sense are you fundamentally disagreeing? It is not clear from your response, I am a little confused

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Punches and kicks are unnecessary - on these forums there is a lot of talk about punching and kicking. People here seem unable to look beyond the base levels and understand the deeper principles of martial practices.

“The true science of martial arts means practicing them in such a way that they will be useful at any time, and to teach them in such a way that they will be useful in all things" - Miyamoto Musashi

You assert that punches and kicks are unnecessary, and then go on to say that those are base levels. I disagree with that because learning to punch and kick has quite a lot of nuance and variation and is not so base level. In my experience quite a lot of “martial artists” aren’t even able to make a proper fist. I don’t see a lot of people that can double up hooks on same side or jab with any real ability. It takes proper instruction and a LOT of practice to be any good at it. So why would you think it’s base level?

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

In what sense are you fundamentally disagreeing? It is not clear from your response, I am a little confused

Did I misunderstand you? Or did you misunderstand me?

 

[Taiji Rebel]

There is more to martial arts than just fighting and the demonstration videos in this thread are clearly not related to competition or combat situations. It seems that a lot of responses here are quite basic in their viewpoint. Ones which are based on a limited competition/fighting outlook. I was just a little surprised to see responses about punching and kicking the guy in order to get the lock to work - oh well, you lives and you learns

 

[JowGaWolf]

Punches and kicks are unnecessary

Most people who believe this are either.
1. Getting punched or kick. Or
2. Participating in a competition where punching and kicking are not allowed.

In MMA fight BBJ has shown from top mount that striking the head will naturally cause the defender to defend the strikes and in the process put the arms into a position in when a lock can be applied.

If I know someone someone is trying to wrist lock me then I'm going to have a difficult time applying it. Even Dr. Yang acknowledges this. Martial Arts in general understands this and is full of movements that hide or set up an attack (punching, kicking, grappling). There is no deeper understanding without understanding this. Which is why we have seen Kung Fu master demonstrate concept and principle but fail miserably in fighting people who beat them with basic punching and kicking.

People here seem unable to look beyond the base levels and understand the deeper principles of martial practices.

The ability to apply the techniques that one trains in sparring and fighting doesnt exist without having a deeper understanding. I've never met someone who can use a martial art technique in sparring or fighting that lack a deeper understanding.

I have seen numerous people who claim to have a deeper understanding failure miserably on the "base stuff" such as footwork and movement. My belief and experience is that the "deeper understanding" can be skewed to where it no longer applies to fighting. The result is that what is said is only true in the context of the demo. It no longer becomes "useful in all things."

The guy in your video says as much, when he talks about famous teachers.

Just something to think about.

 

[JowGaWolf]

There is more to martial arts than just fighting and the demonstration videos in this thread are clearly not related to competition or combat situations.

I'm always amazed that people feel that "deeper meaning" is separate from fighting as if there can't be any deeper meaning gained from fighting. Talk to anyone who spars and fights, then you'll quickly get into the "deeper meaning."

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

There is more to martial arts than just fighting and the demonstration videos in this thread are clearly not related to competition or combat situations. It seems that a lot of responses here are quite basic in their viewpoint. Ones which are based on a limited competition/fighting outlook. I was just a little surprised to see responses about punching and kicking the guy in order to get the lock to work - oh well, you lives and you learns

I think I understand your intent a little more clearly now.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Most people who believe this are either.
1. Getting punched or kick. Or
2. Participating in a competition where punching and kicking are not allowed.

In MMA fight BBJ has shown from top mount that striking the head will naturally cause the defender to defend the strikes and in the process put the arms into a position in when a lock can be applied.

If I know someone someone is trying to wrist lock me then I'm going to have a difficult time applying it. Even Dr. Yang acknowledges this. Martial Arts in general understands this and is full of movements that hide or set up an attack (punching, kicking, grappling). There is no deeper understanding without understanding this. Which is why we have seen Kung Fu master demonstrate concept and principle but fail miserably in fighting people who beat them with basic punching and kicking.


The ability to apply the techniques that one trains in sparring and fighting doesnt exist without having a deeper understanding. I've never met someone who can use a martial art technique in sparring or fighting that lack a deeper understanding.

I have seen numerous people who claim to have a deeper understanding failure miserably on the "base stuff" such as footwork and movement. My belief and experience is that the "deeper understanding" can be skewed to where it no longer applies to fighting. The result is that what is said is only true in the context of the demo. It no longer becomes "useful in all things."

The guy in your video says as much, when he talks about famous teachers.

Just something to think about.

Dr Yang actually said this very thing to me while we were having tea yesterday.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

There is more to martial arts than just fighting and the demonstration videos in this thread are clearly not related to competition or combat situations. It seems that a lot of responses here are quite basic in their viewpoint. Ones which are based on a limited competition/fighting outlook. I was just a little surprised to see responses about punching and kicking the guy in order to get the lock to work - oh well, you lives and you learns

The idea of not needing to punch or kick in order to get the lock is what I believe you were trying to articulate. Am I closer to the mark now?

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

There is more to martial arts than just fighting and the demonstration videos in this thread are clearly not related to competition or combat situations. It seems that a lot of responses here are quite basic in their viewpoint. Ones which are based on a limited competition/fighting outlook. I was just a little surprised to see responses about punching and kicking the guy in order to get the lock to work - oh well, you lives and you learns

A large amount of argument here happens due to lingo, jargon, slang, grammar(or the lack thereof), inference, bias, and ego. Just fyi. Just try to argue that!

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Dr Yang actually said this very thing to me while we were having tea yesterday.

Are you talking about Dr Yang Jwing-Ming?