Your Method Of Pivoting & Structure Of Your Bong Sau?

[ST1Doppelganger]

First off Wing Chun is one of my supplementary arts to my training so I haven't stuck around at one WC School for long.

I have trained with 3 Different instructors & 1 senior training partner that are all from different lineages. I notice that there are some subtle & major differences between them mostly in the pivot & Bong Sau along with Tan Sau.

So my real question is a two part question containing.

1) How do you do your pivot while practicing Chum Kiu & Chi Sau?

Is it on the ball of your foot, heel of your foot or in between the those two points?

2) What is the structure of your Bong Sau?

Is it elbow at shoulder height or are you striving to go above shoulder height?

Please answer those two questions and explain why your WC is done this way because I feel they are two of the basic key moves that show the major differences in WC Lineages.

Also any training tips that can be shared to improve on these two very basic concepts would probably help all of us since it's always good to look back on the basics and freshen up on them.

 

[jg_wc]

First off Wing Chun is one of my supplementary arts to my training so I haven't stuck around at one WC School for long.

I have trained with 3 Different instructors & 1 senior training partner that are all from different lineages. I notice that there are some subtle & major differences between them mostly in the pivot & Bong Sau along with Tan Sau.

So my real question is a two part question containing.

1) How do you do your pivot while practicing Chum Kiu & Chi Sau?

Is it on the ball of your foot, heel of your foot or in between the those two points?

2) What is the structure of your Bong Sau?

Is it elbow at shoulder height or are you striving to go above shoulder height?

Please answer those two questions and explain why your WC is done this way because I feel they are two of the basic key moves that show the major differences in WC Lineages.

Also any training tips that can be shared to improve on these two very basic concepts would probably help all of us since it's always good to look back on the basics and freshen up on them.

when it comes to chum kiu we've been taught to pivot on the heels.
As for the bong sau there's no gospel fixed height it should be at because of course it depends on the height of your opponent and the type of strike coming in. In general, during the forms our bong sao is slightly above shoulder height with the wrist in centre line

 

[wingchun100]

We think of pivoting more in the center of the foot. For me, focusing on heels or toes makes me feel like I am losing my balance and my footing isn't solid enough. As for the bong sao, the elbow comes to shoulder height, with the wrist in center. Personally I would try to avoid using bong sao against a taller opponent because if you have to lift your arm to do it, then you will wind up tiring your shoulder out. For a bigger person I would use things like biu sao, lap sao, or pak sao.

To be honest I don't think of bong sao as a block that one would use much. If some guy charged at me with a right cross to the face, I would not start with that block. It is more of a transitional technique.

 

[geezer]

First off Wing Chun is one of my supplementary arts to my training so I haven't stuck around at one WC School for long.

I have trained with 3 Different instructors & 1 senior training partner that are all from different lineages. I notice that there are some subtle & major differences between them mostly in the pivot & Bong Sau along with Tan Sau.

Yep, the approach to turning, and the nature and application of bong sau are quite different depending on which branch of WC/WT/VT you train. To make any approach functional demands considerable dedication. Whichever group you train with, I would not recommend WC/WT/VT as a "supplemental" art. The system has narrow tolerances, and the way the techniques have to integrate to create a synergistic whole doesn't make it an especially good "bolt on" art. I've found that some other great arts, such as some FMA styles work better in this regard. Adobo anyone?

 

[ST1Doppelganger]

I would not recommend WC/WT/VT as a "supplemental" art. The system has narrow tolerances, and the way the techniques have to integrate to create a synergistic whole doesn't make it an especially good "bolt on" art. I've found that some other great arts, such as some FMA styles work better in this regard. Adobo anyone?

I'm a bit mixed with that statement.

Bruce Lee sure as hell never mastered or stuck to WC and I find it to compliment my CLF foundation very well.

I believe where people go wrong in mixing styles is when they don't stay true to the styles structure and concepts that they are learning at that time.

When I'm training WC, Yang TCC, CLF or Bagua i stick to the concepts and structure of that individual style and learn it as its suppose to be learned then I mix my styles up when I spar or am doing just free style bag work or shadow boxing.

Even when we free spar at the WC club I stick to the WC structure and keep my CLF and other arts out of their sparring unless it's when we decide to mix it up then thats when we break WC sparring structure.

 

[mook jong man]

When we are teaching beginners , to give them a reference point , we say to pivot from the middle of the foot.
But a this stage they are only pivoting 45 degrees to either side.

The reality is that it is all about the center of gravity , as you pivot beyond 45 degrees to 90 degrees as in Chum Kiu , the center of gravity will naturally settle over the heel of the back leg.

In normal circumstances in Chi Sau it is very risky to pivot beyond 45 degrees as you can easily be turned and have your side and back exposed and be easily pushed out of your stance.

The height of the opponent will dictate how high the Bong Sau is , with a taller opponent in Chi Sau you need to have a larger circle in order to avoid getting hit.
The arm should not be getting tired , this will only happen if you are tense and lifting your Bong Sau up.

You should be relaxed and letting your opponents force roll your Bong Sau up , this requires you to have a very relaxed shoulder joint , all that needs to be done is to relax and maintain structure and let the opponent raise your arm.

If you do this correctly , as a side benefit you will also become heavier as the opponents force will be channelled down through your body and push you into the ground.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

1) How do you do your pivot while practicing Chum Kiu & Chi Sau?

Is it on the ball of your foot, heel of your foot or in between the those two points?

2) What is the structure of your Bong Sau?

Is it elbow at shoulder height or are you striving to go above shoulder height?

1) I prefer to look at this from general MA point of view instead. IMO when you pivot on your

- toes, you are not committed. If your opponent sweeps your leg, it's easier for you to lift that leg up and escape out of that sweep.
- heel, you are committed. If your opponent sweeps your leg, it's harder for you to lift that leg up and escape out of that sweep.

It's very easy to test this on a frozen lake surface.

2) It depends on your opponent. It doesn't depend on yourself. MA is 2 persons art. Without the reference of "opponent", the height of your elbow will have no meaning.

If your opponent is

- 7 feet tall, your Bong Shou elbow will be higher that your shoulder.
- 5 feet tall, your Bong Shou elbow will be much lower.

If you just talk about solo training, then I assume you should train both in order to be able to adapt into both situations.

The "high" Bong Shou can be very useful in grappling. when your right hand grab on your opponent's left upper lapel, if your opponent tries to punch you with his left hand, you can raise your right Bong Shou, hide your head next to it, and deflect your opponent's left punch.

 

[jg_wc]

1) I prefer to look at this from general MA point of view instead. IMO when you pivot on your

- toes, you are not committed. If your opponent sweeps your leg, it's easier for you to lift that leg up and escape out of that sweep.
- heel, you are committed. If your opponent sweeps your leg, it's harder for you to lift that leg up and escape out of that sweep.

It's very easy to test this on a frozen lake surface.

2

I don't see how your committed when TURNING on your heels, any more than you would be turning on your toes. The pivot action takes a split second.

You can be light on your feet in your usual fighting stance allowing you to move quickly and not let your leg be swept. You wouldn't be committed. But then when you need to turn, you can still turn on your heels, which takes a split second, then be light on your feet again.

Anyways we pivot on our heels. I've been told when pivoting on your toes your feet lose alignment slightly. a few consecutive turns on your toes and your structure will be gone.

 

[Kwan Sau]

First off Wing Chun is one of my supplementary arts to my training so I haven't stuck around at one WC School for long.

I have trained with 3 Different instructors & 1 senior training partner that are all from different lineages. I notice that there are some subtle & major differences between them mostly in the pivot & Bong Sau along with Tan Sau.

So my real question is a two part question containing.

1) How do you do your pivot while practicing Chum Kiu & Chi Sau?

Is it on the ball of your foot, heel of your foot or in between the those two points?

2) What is the structure of your Bong Sau?

Is it elbow at shoulder height or are you striving to go above shoulder height?

Please answer those two questions and explain why your WC is done this way because I feel they are two of the basic key moves that show the major differences in WC Lineages.

Also any training tips that can be shared to improve on these two very basic concepts would probably help all of us since it's always good to look back on the basics and freshen up on them.

First, WC takes a long time to learn and longer to master...personally, I'd say find ONE you like and stick with that art/system until you achieve combat competence. Dabbling in a handful of arts simultaneously is IMO simply ridiculous.
Second: in Chum Kiu...the "pivot" is done on the heel. This has to do with angle changes, power generation, etc etc... In chi sau, you turn / pivot as needed depending on what your chi sau partner is doing and the pressure you are receiving.
Third: Bong sau... when you are learning...everything must have a 'baseline'. From there you adjust in/during application. So, for example wrist is on your CL and elbow is at same level as your own shoulder joint (i.e. use yourself as your baseline). When "applying" bong sau...your opponents height tells you how to apply your bong sau.
PS: Bong sau is NOT a "block"

Good luck in your training!

 

[wingchun100]

First, WC takes a long time to learn and longer to master...personally, I'd say find ONE you like and stick with that art/system until you achieve combat competence. Dabbling in a handful of arts simultaneously is IMO simply ridiculous.

I was thinking this as well, but forgot to mention it when I replied!

 

[JPinAZ]

Everyone does things differently for different reasoning. Example, in our lineage of wing chun we do not 'pivot' our feet at all in our chum kiu form. We pick the knee up and in, and the feet actually come off the ground when changing our facing (ie. 'pivoting'). This is part of our Leung Yi Ma footwork, and is also how we do it in application, chi sau or otherwise. This allows us to pick the proper reference point when changing our facing based on position and force coming from the opponent while still maintaining proper spacing for our structures (the kuit 'feet follow the hands' comes into play here).

For bong sau, I agree with those that say it depends on your opponent. Size is one factor, but also the contact point and leverage desired is also a factor. On top of that, it depends what type of bong you're talking about!
Some use a bent wrist bong sau and some use a straight wrist. In my experience, both are applicable give the situation, facing and contact point of the bridge. Bent wrist (hok bong, or 'crane' bong) typically has a fwd nature with fingers shooting fwd on center and plays no higher than the shoulder height with the wrist, elbow and shoulder all in the same plane with contact point being on the mid for arm of the bong arm. The straight wrist bong (Ying bong, or 'eagle' bong) on the other hand typically ends with the elbow higher than the wrist and is usually used for shifting the line from center. The contact point here is usually closer to the wrist on the bong arm. At least, from my experience

Again, everyone does things differently. But in the end, it's leverage point, facing and energy direction that tells us what is correct/incorrect from a WC principle pov vs lineage or what sifu says IMO.

 

[ST1Doppelganger]

First, WC takes a long time to learn and longer to master...personally, I'd say find ONE you like and stick with that art/system until you achieve combat competence. Dabbling in a handful of arts simultaneously is IMO simply ridiculous. /QUOTE]

In my circumstance I have 10+ years of Choy Li Fut currently not being formally taught due to relocating states 3 years ago as well as not being able to find a CMA School that I feel dedicating time to.

The WC club is the best i could find so I took it up again but have not been going since my work schedule conflicts with their one day a week meet. I luckily found a WC training partner thru Craig's list thats from a legit lineage so I met up with him a few times and plan on continuing my meets with him so I have a Chi Sau partner.

IMO it would be ridiculous not to cross train and take up new styles since I already have a foundation and can't find a school I want to dedicate time to.

P.S. Bong Sau can be used as a block but in my opinion it is the Oh **** last resort Block of course done with a Wu or Tan Sau with the opposite hand when you can't evade a strike and are in bad position. This can enable you to absorb the attack then use the Bong Sau as the transitional movement in to other techniques.

 

[ST1Doppelganger]

When we are teaching beginners , to give them a reference point , we say to pivot from the middle of the foot.
But a this stage they are only pivoting 45 degrees to either side.

The reality is that it is all about the center of gravity , as you pivot beyond 45 degrees to 90 degrees as in Chum Kiu , the center of gravity will naturally settle over the heel of the back leg.

In normal circumstances in Chi Sau it is very risky to pivot beyond 45 degrees as you can easily be turned and have your side and back exposed and be easily pushed out of your stance.

The height of the opponent will dictate how high the Bong Sau is , with a taller opponent in Chi Sau you need to have a larger circle in order to avoid getting hit.
The arm should not be getting tired , this will only happen if you are tense and lifting your Bong Sau up.

You should be relaxed and letting your opponents force roll your Bong Sau up , this requires you to have a very relaxed shoulder joint , all that needs to be done is to relax and maintain structure and let the opponent raise your arm.

If you do this correctly , as a side benefit you will also become heavier as the opponents force will be channelled down through your body and push you into the ground.

Thanks for your time on explaining your methods of doing these techniques, it was very informative and well articulated.

Yes I agree about the relaxed Bong Sau Shoulder. My shoulder would get tired by the end of practice when I first began WC.

I focused on the basic Tan/Bong variations which realy helped my Bong Sau & WC greatly. I still do that basic drill at least 4-5 times a week because I feel its one of the WC core technique combos for building good structure and Chi Sau.

 

[Danny T]

1) How do you do your pivot while practicing Chum Kiu & Chi Sau?

Is it on the ball of your foot, heel of your foot or in between the those two points?

2) What is the structure of your Bong Sau?

Is it elbow at shoulder height or are you striving to go above shoulder height?

Pivoting? In my linage we start off with learning pivoting in the SLT phase on the balls of the feet. Weight distribution is 90/10 rear/frt. In Chum Kiu we are more of a 60/40 and the shifting becomes more to the center of the foot. In Biu Jee we are closer to a 50/50 distribution and using the heels. Why? Because of the different situations one faces in fighting. Spoke with my instructor many years ago concerning the differences, his response; “sometimes you have to move more than others, sometimes the other person is simply in a better position and you can’t do what you want. You have to survive. Survival is more important than being a slave to particular way of moving your stance. Practice them all and use what is needed when it is needed.

Same with bong sao. There is the form position and then there is the what is needed to work based upon the situation. Shoulder down and elbow slightly above the wrist. Height is based on what is needed.

Form is form = basic presentation.
Drills = learn when and how much
Application = Do what you must to survive.

The situation will always dictate what you will do and the manner you will do it.

 

[futsaowingchun]

First off Wing Chun is one of my supplementary arts to my training so I haven't stuck around at one WC School for long.

I have trained with 3 Different instructors & 1 senior training partner that are all from different lineages. I notice that there are some subtle & major differences between them mostly in the pivot & Bong Sau along with Tan Sau.

So my real question is a two part question containing.

1) How do you do your pivot while practicing Chum Kiu & Chi Sau?

Is it on the ball of your foot, heel of your foot or in between the those two points?

2) What is the structure of your Bong Sau?

Is it elbow at shoulder height or are you striving to go above shoulder height?

Please answer those two questions and explain why your WC is done this way because I feel they are two of the basic key moves that show the major differences in WC Lineages.

Also any training tips that can be shared to improve on these two very basic concepts would probably help all of us since it's always good to look back on the basics and freshen up on them.

rn the

It's been a long time I've been here so I will give my 2 cents..how you pivot matters only for the reason..In my Chum Kiu there is no pivot we just turn the waist..so there is no need to pivot..we only pivot when your need to move in another direction other wise no need to do that..when you pivot you unroot your self and can easly be controlled.
he

 

[wingchun100]

rn the

It's been a long time I've been here so I will give my 2 cents..how you pivot matters only for the reason..In my Chum Kiu there is no pivot we just turn the waist..so there is no need to pivot..we only pivot when your need to move in another direction other wise no need to do that..when you pivot you unroot your self and can easly be controlled.
he

You'd have to post a video of that because I cannot visualize how you would do chum kiu without pivoting.

 

[Punchy]

rn the

It's been a long time I've been here so I will give my 2 cents..how you pivot matters only for the reason..In my Chum Kiu there is no pivot we just turn the waist..so there is no need to pivot..we only pivot when your need to move in another direction other wise no need to do that..when you pivot you unroot your self and can easly be controlled.
he

In our lineage, CK is a pivot, turning the body as a unit. What you describe is more how we "pivot" within the Biu Tze form.

 

[geezer]

...we only pivot when your need to move in another direction other wise no need to do that..when you pivot you unroot your self and can easly be controlled.

You can remain rooted when you pivot if you only turn one foot at a time, shifting your weight from center (both feet rooted) to the side or what now becomes the rear foot in your turned-stance. Our goal is to remain rooted but still springy and yielding. The weight shift in response to heavy pressure is one way we accomplish this goal.

Sifu Alex (below) comes from essentially the same lineage as I do and demonstrates this clearly in the following clip:

How to Do Juen Ma aka Turning Stance | Wing Chun | Howcast

 

[futsaowingchun]

You can remain rooted when you pivot if you only turn one foot at a time, shifting your weight from center (both feet rooted) to the side or what now becomes the rear foot in your turned-stance. Our goal is to remain rooted but still springy and yielding. The weight shift in response to heavy pressure is one way we accomplish this goal.

Sifu Alex (below) comes from essentially the same lineage as I do and demonstrates this clearly in the following clip:


How to Do Juen Ma aka Turning Stance | Wing Chun | Howcast

I also do this but,but when you move your feet you move your root..which creates a compromise in your stance. the body should be like a tree.plant the legs,move the branches..i will post a clip of this later..

 

[mook jong man]

I also do this but,but when you move your feet you move your root..which creates a compromise in your stance. the body should be like a tree.plant the legs,move the branches..i will post a clip of this later..

I can't say I agree with this at all.
As long as you can maintain balance while you are pivoting there should not be a problem.
Balance is balance , it does not matter whether the body is stationary or rotating , as long as the center of gravity is kept centered.

The only way the stance will be compromised is if the opponent manages to get to the side and you fail to pivot to follow him and face his centerline.

The other issue with not moving the legs is that in trying to generate power you are leaving part of your body mass out of the equation.
A bit hard to use your whole body mass in striking or other actions when your legs aren't coming along for the ride.

One of the principles for generating force in Wing Chun is that in order to generate force , all the force vectors must be going in the same direction you are trying to project your force.