I
InvisibleFist
Guest
Anybody crosstrain in yoga? Do you find it improves kicking height, stance depth?
Kembudo-Kai Kempoka
Senior Master
I haven't for years, and it shows in my daily stiffness and loss of fluidity. Yoga, practiced well, will open up the joints and muscles of the body allowing for better physical performance of pretty much any martial art. If you train in the physical-only Yoga's, you'll become more limber and better able to adapt physically to new techniques. If you practice a yoga with mental/spiritual/energetic overtones, you'll learn to sense the location, direction, and flow of energy through your own body, and key into technical aspects of your performance better.InvisibleFist said:
Mind, Body, and Spirit are seperate divisions of the same sole entity. Yoga enables you to work on the whole "You", which cannot help but lead to improvements in your martial practices.
Namaste!
Dr. Dave
Yoga is one of the best physical health practices I have ever found. I have practiced hatha, ashtanga, letha and dhanda. Any of these can change the physical requirment of participation. I find that yoga aids in longterm flexibility, muscle stamina/definition and energy increase, not to mention the mental benefits like tension/stress reduction and mental dicipline. I recomend any traditional method or style, but don't practice just in a martial arts mind set, use the mentality of overall health benefits instead.
KennethKu said:
This is true. My PT warned me about this, but said that the stretching actually stretched the ligimants too much, essentially "fatiguing the rubberband". If you stretch certain ligimants too often they loosen so much they loose their supporting power, but they will tighten up again over time. The good side of this is that they will almost never snap or tear off, which is damage that needs to be surgically repaired.
Cruentus
Grandmaster
KennethKu said:
I think that usually occurs if Yoga is done improperly. I have seen people really "try hard" to excel in yoga, forcing their body into some of the more difficult positions. This is contrary to what Yoga is supposed to be for. Yoga is supposed to be done in a relaxed manner; nothing is supposed to be forced.
I have done Yoga before, and I find that it is great for relaxation and overall health.
In regards to stretching, I think its a great way to complement your other stretching in that if done properly, you develop what I'd call a "true stretch," because all of the auxillary muscles and little parts of the muscles get slowly stretched. But understand that if done properly this is a very long process that could take many years to develop this kind of flexability.
If your looking to be stretched out for sport (high kicking) I wouldn't recomend Yoga to get there because the process is so slow, and if you try to speed it up you risk tendon and ligement damage. I say that regular stretching methods and strength building (which involved getting warm before stretching) would be more beneficial in the short term.
:asian:
I have to agree here. It is similiar to the 'running is bad' concept because of injury statistics. It isn't running that is bad as much as the impropre training practiced by enthusiasts than the activity.PAUL said:
Yoga is a sound practice if you practice it with the proper 'yielding' and 'non competitive' mentallity. Practice yoga for body awareness and assessment or just for a little space of 'stressless stress', not pushing and furthering and the injury potential is reduced.
The core strength, elastic power from sound yoga can't be beat.
KennethKu
2nd Black Belt
Stretching your muscle to improve flexibility is simply barking at the wrong tree and is a losing endeavour. The muscles are sufficiently flexible for even the most advanced gymnastics or MA performance. It is your nervous system that is holding your flexibility back. You should strech to reset your neural inhibition. Flexibility gained through stretching the muscles take a long time and the result decays as certain as radioactive isotopes decay in time. Flexibilty gained by resetting stretch reflex takes little maintainance stretching to retain. And takes less time to succeed in the first place.
Streching your muscle will actually incure micro-tear that eventually shorten your muscle. Also, by the decay of time, the collagen and elastin ratio of your muscle will worsen. And your muscle flexibility will decay, no matter how much you stretch the muscle.
Stretching your joints beyond the range of motion they are designed to perform is going to weaken your joints. Too much flexibility is counter productive.
If someone thinks there is a right way to do yoga that somehow defies all these known facts, then feel free to stretch with yoga that way.
Streching your muscle will actually incure micro-tear that eventually shorten your muscle. Also, by the decay of time, the collagen and elastin ratio of your muscle will worsen. And your muscle flexibility will decay, no matter how much you stretch the muscle.
Stretching your joints beyond the range of motion they are designed to perform is going to weaken your joints. Too much flexibility is counter productive.
If someone thinks there is a right way to do yoga that somehow defies all these known facts, then feel free to stretch with yoga that way.
KennethKu said:
THere are those who would list the risk assessment issues of practicing martial arts as a reason to side step it and sign up for a defensive firearm course as well, risk and reward are things we can consciously control and choose on a daily basis.
The philosophies behind yoga are based on being in the moment and just experiencing that moment. THe exagerated poses you are referring to are not the goal of yoga because the exercise is a goalless practice at it's ideological root.
There are some very credible yoga organizations, headed by PT's or Sport Science types, that have modified the physical instruction, poses and even rejected certain poses and movements for the very reasons that you mention but maintain the philosophical goals.
THe nervous system focus is at the core of yoga practice as an exercise form. The difference is that the western view of the nervous system is biological/scientific/clinical and separate from the conscious self. The yoga/eastern view treats it as a power center of will and conscious control and part of the conscious self. In both cases the nervous system is the focus of development.
I like Yoga because it is a mind/body/spirit practice that has harmonious goals instead of the standard Western view of categorization and separation. As a self defense Martial artist, anything that reinforces the coordination of all three of these areas is good to me.
Saying "yoga is bad" is the equivelant of saying "karate is hard style" too general and tends to throw out the baby with the bath water.
KennethKu
2nd Black Belt
My posts are very clear. I specifically stated that yoga practices that stretch your joints beyond their natural range of motion are bad. The result is weakened joints and even torn ligaments. I didn't say all yoga practices are categorically bad for your joints.
I don't care about western view or eastern view. Physiology is a matter of science. Views and philosophy or new age hocus pocus really mean f%@$@$ s%@$# when it comes to science.
I don't care about western view or eastern view. Physiology is a matter of science. Views and philosophy or new age hocus pocus really mean f%@$@$ s%@$# when it comes to science.
Cruentus
Grandmaster
KennethKu said:
"Medical Textbooks" is a bit vague. I understand the terms you've listed, but I haven't read a medical resource that has made the arguement that your muscles are already flexable, and that it is ONLY your nervous system that inhibits your flexability (although, I have heard that of neural inhibition as being one of several factors).
If it was only neural inhibition, then why would we pull muscles when we are stretched too far beyond our "neural inhibition."
KennethKu said:
Funny, I thought science was just another philosophical system of viewing and defining the world. There are many western trained medical/trainer types who are enjoying great scientifically measurable successes by moving more toward a treat the patient as a person shift from the standard treat the patient as a collection of systems view. The combination/synergism of the two is reasonable. If it is proven to work.
As far as my misinterp of your post, I apologize. I was really trying to get the the misconception that Yoga is about muscular stretching and not improved range of motion.
A
Azagthoth
Guest
I have been doing ashtanga yoga for about a year and recently started doing Bikram yoga as well. I find that it does improve my Muay Thai, some of the gains are from the flexibility, although in MT we don't really throw that many head kicks. I think the biggest benefit is that yoga really helps you to learn to relax and breathe properly and is incredible for improving your overall state of mind. This helps me alot during my Muay Thai training by helping me to better focus and to relax during sparring. I don't know if that answers the question, but it's my cheap plug for yoga as a great crosstraining method 
As far as overstretching being bad for you or whatever, yoga done properly should not overstretch you...mostly people run into problems when they try to push beyond the normal limits. It is essential to keep your yoga practice non-competitive and listen to your body at all times!
As far as overstretching being bad for you or whatever, yoga done properly should not overstretch you...mostly people run into problems when they try to push beyond the normal limits. It is essential to keep your yoga practice non-competitive and listen to your body at all times!
Kembudo-Kai Kempoka
Senior Master
Functional Anatomy & Biomechanics and Spine, Spinal Cord, and ANS are good books to strart with. Yoga done well helps to reset the neural inhibition response, and will actually strengthen connective tissues, make them more physiologically efficient, and improve structure and function of tissues at the cellular level (S.A.I.D. principle: Specific Adaptation to Imposed Demand...a scientific, physiologically-based principle that supports the sound practice of Yoga).PAUL said:
Online, stretching techniques from the western point of view that assist with this are PIR (post-isometric relaxation); PNF, CRAC (contract, relax, antagonist contract); others that will likely be mentioned in the same pages.
The supremacy of Yoga rests not in its ability to redefine structure and function, but relationship. Improved awareness of Body as part of Self, integrated with Mind, leads to an inevitable improvement in skills. Which holds more, a 5 gallon bucket, or a ten gallon bucket? Vessel size for humans is not fixed, and can be expanded. Yoga is one of the longest lasting, proven traditions for expanding the capacitiy of the human vessel to learn, internalize, and grow.
Kembudo-Kai Kempoka
Senior Master
Also, Google Sherringtons Law of Recirpocal Inhibition, a neurological reflex in which the activity of agonists and antagonists check each others stretch capacity in order to protect the muscles and joints ofthe body from moving too far in a given voluntary movement. (at least, that can be interpreted that way).
Cruentus
Grandmaster
Thanks for the info so far.
But I am still confused as to the hyposthesis.
I need it broken down in dumb-guy terms
Is the conjecture that our muscles are already "stretched" enough to meet maximum flexability, and that our neural inhibitation is the only thing holding us back, from say, the splits?
Or, is the conjecture that neural inhibitation is a factor that needs to be overcome, along with stretching of the actual muscle fibers.
If it is the former (that it is all neurological) then why would you pull a muscle if you stretched beyond your neurological limit, when the muscle is already flexable enough to go beyond that limit?
Thanks in advance.
PAUL
But I am still confused as to the hyposthesis.
I need it broken down in dumb-guy terms
Is the conjecture that our muscles are already "stretched" enough to meet maximum flexability, and that our neural inhibitation is the only thing holding us back, from say, the splits?
Or, is the conjecture that neural inhibitation is a factor that needs to be overcome, along with stretching of the actual muscle fibers.
If it is the former (that it is all neurological) then why would you pull a muscle if you stretched beyond your neurological limit, when the muscle is already flexable enough to go beyond that limit?
Thanks in advance.
PAUL
