What is everybody take on these two organizations actually working for one commend goal over the next two years and what are the up side along with the down size as well?
Terry
Terry
WTF and the Kukkiwon
- Thread starter terryl965
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Miles
Senior Master
I think having a degree of uniformity is a good idea. I am glad the organizations are working to standardize the technical aspects of our art. By working together, they are ensuring that the final product will benefit all.
Miles
Miles
I agree with Miles that they seem to be heading in a good direction. It takes time to turn around a big ship like this one is.
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I'm still waiting for them to allow leg kicks and punches to head. I feel that if the WTF allowed that, then the art would be transformed for the better. Thoughts?
Miles
Senior Master
deadhand31 said:
Our sparring is distinct from Muay Thai in that we don't allow leg kicks, elbows, or face punches. How would we maintain our independent and identifiable style of sparring if we are all doing the same thing? If you've ever been to an "open point" tournament, you can't tell the difference between a Taekwondoin or a Karateka.
Miles
Fluffy
Black Belt
Kinda matters with what happens on the Olympic front. One of those "we'll see" kind of things.
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Miles said:
Well, some parts of the sparring are things we need to get rid of. For example, in a lot of Olympic matches, I've seen leg humping. This is where one of the participants goes belly to belly with his opponent, bringing his legs to the outside of his opponent's legs. This is usually followed up with a pushing off front kick. I've also heard alot of weird kiyaps, and "mind games" where the guy goes "missed me!". I feel that if we allowed hands to the head, it would be alot more closer to a real fight, and we would lose the "Tae Do" stereotype that gets attributed to us.
Miles said:
ITF TKD allows head shots, with both hands and feet; some organizations allow sweeps as well (mine does, for red belts - 2nd gup - and above). No elbows, and no leg kicks - also no groin shots - due to the potential for injury. From a realism point of view, if I am caught in a street fight, the person attacking me is much more likely to attempt to hit me in the face or body than the groin - which is, realistically, a smaller and harder to hit target, in addition to being easier to guard (not easy, necessarily, just easier than the face). I don't see a problem with moving the target zone to waist and above, or even expanding it to the head while keeping the groin - which would make it more realistic than it is now; if self-defense is a practitioner's aim, how realistic is it to train yourself to neither hit nor guard your head?
As far as telling the difference between styles based on the fighters - so what? If your style is so defined and restricted that it is identifiable, then this puts you at risk when you fight in open tournaments - because it makes you more predictable, and less able to defend yourself. Having a style that is less identifiable is better, in my opinion.
Miles
Senior Master
Kacey said:
Kacey said:
Kacey, we kick to the head, we just don't punch to the head, due to potential for injury (to the hand BTW).
Isn't your statement about elbows, leg kicks and groin shots as being illegal in ITF competiton contradictory to the last part of the second quote about self-defense?
I am sure you, like I, teach your students how to use their elbows, how to kick to the legs and how to strike and kick the groin. These are illegal in both ITF and WTF sparring but are still viable techniques for self-defense. The point being is that there is a difference between sparring and self-defense.
Kacey said:
The WTF style of sparring is in the Olympics which is inarguably the highest honor for an amateur athlete. These athletes only train for this style of sparring.
I am not saying my style of sparring is better than yours, just different. That difference is important, much like a brand name becomes important over time. Those players who compete in WTF style sparring are not likely to spar in open point tournaments due to the difference in rules, strategy, training regimen,etc.
Kacey said:
On the competition floor, I say "viva la difference." On the street, that's another story.
Miles
Miles said:
Miles, I don't, by any means, mean to speak about your skills - but every WTF practitioner I've ever fought kept his hands below his chin, and told me it was because it wasn't possible to kick to the head... immediately following which I would kick him in the head. As far as potential injury to the hand... in 19 years I've never heard of anyone doing injury to their hand in sparring while hitting the face, unless the fist was not properly clenched - which applies to every target.
Miles said:
They are illegal in free sparring - not other forms of self-defense practice - because of the risk of injury. And as I said, the groin is a smaller, harder to hit target than the head - one that it is easy to miss, especially in a high stress situation. Leg kicks are illegal because of the high risk of maiming your partner by kicking to the knees - not because we don't teach that they are effective. Likewise, strikes to the back are illegal in free sparring, because of the risk to the spine and kidneys - but that doesn't mean we don't practice them in other settings. My point was that too many WTF practitioners I have met don't guard their faces, because they don't think anyone can hit them in the face - because hands are illegal, and, as they have all told me "no one can kick that high". Again, this may be different for your organization - but that is my experience, and that is the perspective I made my statement from.
Miles said:
Of course there is a difference between sparring and self-defense - but in a self-defense situation, you respond as you practice. My students guard their faces and torsos, knowing (from extensive practice) that they can easily and quickly drop their guard to lower body parts if needed - because it is, in my opinion, easier and faster to lower one's guard than raise it. That is the rationale behind allowing face shots. Likewise, if one has practiced kicking to the head, leg shots are easy; the reverse is not always true. Elbows are illegal due to the small-area, deep injuries they are able to inflict, but yes, they are used for self-defense - just not free sparring.
Miles said:
Many people (especially MMA practitioners, I suspect) will disagree with this statement. Simply because it is in the Olympics does not mean it is best; it means it is the method that is in the Olympics. If one wants to compete in the Olympics, then certainly, one should train with that in mind - but that's not what most people want out of TKD, or any other MA. The Olympics are for the few; MAs are for the many, and, in my opinion, should be taught and practiced for the many.
Miles said:
That's all I was saying - but from what I have seen here and on other boards, as well as from observing competitions, there is a large contingent of people who feel that, due to the lack of flexibility in the rules, WTF TKD is not effective in self-defense (of course, many of those people say the same thing about ITF TKD, or simply don't differentiate). My point is that the comment I have heard the most often is that WTF TKD practitioners (or, as I say, in some cases, TKD practitioners in general) can't guard their face because they don't practice doing it, and it makes them easy prey, both in the ring (with those from other styles) and on the street - and it is the latter that concerns me. Most of my students have no interest in high level competition - and those that do receive additional instruction appropriate to such competition.
Miles said:
On or off the competition floor, it pays to be unpredictable. Difference is good, yes - but if most people outside your art characterize it by what they see as a defect in the style, and they use that perceived defect consistently against you... that creates a self-defense concern that must be addressed.
Please understand that my comments were general and were not intended to offend - a question was asked, and I answered with my personal opinion. Many people are not aware of the difference between WTF and ITF TKD, and lump them together - thus, I felt it necessary to point out the difference when responding.
