Wing Chun and Point Fighting

[Spartan]

Hey Guys,
I was just curious to know if wing chun could be or ever has been adapted to compete in point sparring matches?

I do realize that point fighting is not necessarily represenative of real combat and that some styles are better suited to this kind of competition.

Tell me what you know,
Spartan

 

[Primal Kuen]

I think most Wing Chun compitition is in "forms". In my school our sifu will arrange a fight if it is desired by both parties...but this is not for compitition and in fact is done behind closed doors. It is done as a learning experience. ofcourse lighter sparring is done also, but again compitition is not a factor.

I have seen WC tournaments advertised by various WC schools, but "point sparring" has never been one of the activities.

 

[AceHBK]

I don't know about point sparring but I have seen many WC schools overseas that showcae trophy and medals from WC tournaments.

 

[Spartan]

What do these WC tournements consist of?

 

[CuongNhuka]

Wing Chun Chi sao is based off the same principal as point fighting/sparring. Both are meant to develop muscle memory and ability in a more live sitaution. The differnce is the nature of the range. Most styles are 'generalists'. Meaning they include punching, kicking, even pseudo-grappling in ruffly equal amounts. Wing Chun does not. It focuses on close range and punching. This means that Wing Chun's version of free form is going to based on that range and concept. So, no matter how good a boxer you are, you will probably lose in Chi Sao if you have no Wing Chun training.
Point fighting is little to no contact and has padding for a reason. You can hit the head! But, Chi Sao goes full contact, so it restricts contact to the body only. If you were to open up the contact area, the contact level will probably go down as well.

Know then, if you are doing Wing Chun for a while, and go at it against some one who plays differnit rules, the Wing Chun player will be in trouble. So, you generally wont see too many Wing Chun players in a Tae Kwon Do tournament.

 

[Primal Kuen]

Wing Chun Chi sao is based off the same principal as point fighting/sparring. Both are meant to develop muscle memory and ability in a more live sitaution. The differnce is the nature of the range. Most styles are 'generalists'. Meaning they include punching, kicking, even pseudo-grappling in ruffly equal amounts. Wing Chun does not. It focuses on close range and punching. This means that Wing Chun's version of free form is going to based on that range and concept. So, no matter how good a boxer you are, you will probably lose in Chi Sao if you have no Wing Chun training.
Point fighting is little to no contact and has padding for a reason. You can hit the head! But, Chi Sao goes full contact, so it restricts contact to the body only. If you were to open up the contact area, the contact level will probably go down as well.

Know then, if you are doing Wing Chun for a while, and go at it against some one who plays differnit rules, the Wing Chun player will be in trouble. So, you generally wont see too many Wing Chun players in a Tae Kwon Do tournament.

To say that a Wing chun practitioner would be in "trouble" against a practitioner from another style...especially Tae Kwon Do, is simply an ignorant statement.(no offense intended) Even in a tournament setting...in my opinion.

Tae Kwon Do is an effective striking style...that can do a great deal of damage, no doubt. However, TKD is 90% big, powerful, high-flying kicks that need space to execute. Wing chun is about continually pressing, taking away any usable space..."sticking" to their opponent and denying free movement. Overwhelming from the onset of battle at very close range, continuously flowing . This could get frustrating quickly for someone who needs space to perform their art.

Secondly, Wing Chun is famous for chi sao ( sticky hands ) drills. Because this looks "cool" it is what most ppl see when viewing WC video clips etc.
Unfortunately I think alot of ppl think this is what WC fighting is, or looks like. In reality Chi Sao is just one of many drills or training methods to devolop "touch reflexes" , and is not what Wing Chun fighting "looks like" or consists of. So, to correct you...a boxer would never find himself in "chi sao" with a wing chun practitioner; as Chi Sao is a trining tool, not a WC term for fighting.

You are also incorrect in your assumption that Wing Chun is only about punching.Wing Chun is a well rounded style with techniques involving striking with fists, fingers, palms, elbows, knees, kicks, aswell as throwing, joint locking, bone breaking, pressure point/ vital point striking and more.

Most TKD schools and alot of Karate schools train for tournament style sparring, and that's fine. My old TKD teacher had a silver medal hanging in the school he won for the Korean team in the 80's. But traditional chinese MAs for the most part do not train for sport, and THAT is why you will not see many WC fighters at these tournaments.

 

[KamonGuy2]

Point fighting has destroyed many good arts such as karate, TKD and even kickboxing. I went to an event in Dorking recently which was the CIMAC world tournament. It was dreadful. It was obvious that there was some dedicated and good martial artists there, but the point fighting did not display anything other than charging in with silly punches/kicks etc

I literally could train up a student in two months to beat all of them on points

There are certainly chi sao point competitions going on all the time and some are quite good. One that I went to last time stated that in order to get a point you had to hit and then hit again straight away. This made the comp step away from a tappy tappy situation.

It is one of the reasons why I never consider the UFC no holds barred - once you introduce rules, you take away the fear and the element of survival

 

[CuongNhuka]

To say that a Wing chun practitioner would be in "trouble" against a practitioner from another style...especially Tae Kwon Do, is simply an ignorant statement.(no offense intended) Even in a tournament setting...in my opinion.

By that comment, I mean in a Tae Kwon Do tournament, using Tae Kwon Do rules, and Tae Kwon Do regulations, the Wing Chun player would be in trouble. If the situation were reversed, the Tae Kwon Do player would be in trouble. In a street fight, who knows.

I'm also aware that Chi Sao is not Wing Chun fighting, but is the first step to it. Again, like point fighting. The problem is people in Karate styles (in the West) tend to not move further. Kyo-Koshinkai does some pretty scarry point fighting that gets very realistic... again, first step to "full on"

I'm aware that Wing Chun includes more then just hand strikes, but the empasis is on hand strikes.

 

[KamonGuy2]

By that comment, I mean in a Tae Kwon Do tournament, using Tae Kwon Do rules, and Tae Kwon Do regulations, the Wing Chun player would be in trouble. If the situation were reversed, the Tae Kwon Do player would be in trouble. In a street fight, who knows.

I'm also aware that Chi Sao is not Wing Chun fighting, but is the first step to it. Again, like point fighting. The problem is people in Karate styles (in the West) tend to not move further. Kyo-Koshinkai does some pretty scarry point fighting that gets very realistic... again, first step to "full on"

I'm aware that Wing Chun includes more then just hand strikes, but the empasis is on hand strikes.

I train regularly in other styles, and I can honestly say that most TKD schools I have been to would struggle in a street setting

The chance to pull off a roundhouse or sweeping kick is limited. The instyructors I train under are very talented and skilled but would be the first to admit that once space closes, they can't do much

So far, when it has come to anything goes training, I have managed to catch all of them out. This is not because I am particularly good, only that their training is very limited

In karate there are some very good tournaments, especially when you look at 'Knockdown' in the 80s

 

[profesormental]

Greetings.

Wing Chun itself should not be adapted for point fighting.

Most of the parries and blocks would count as points as seen by judges.

To fight in a game, you must adapt to the rules of the game. Combat has no set rules... so it is different.

An MMA practitioner would have trouble in most tournament point fighting matches, because he would press the action with full contact. That will get you disqualified or "touched" by the opponent, thus the action would stop, and the point awarded to the opponent.

Also, point fighting, if you see it, makes you have to overextend yourself to touch the opponent, and if you go ito an exchange, a touch will stop the action... and many of the strikes are inefficient...

In reality, they wouldn't even bother you much.

I've learned this by first training for sport and winning in my early training, then training completely for combat applications.

A few months ago I gave it a go at a few tournaments...

people were falling to the floor from their own kicks which were overextended... thus no power... or partially blocked by my elbows... thus the point was awarded to the opponent.

Every time I hit, you could hear the "hhhmmph" but no point.

I had to hit them several times, since the judges didn't see the strikes... and I have it on video.

I didn't loose my balance once. If you don't have a stable base, your strikes will have no power.

There are Chi Sao tournaments and sparring in close contact which is much more favorable, yet more rare.

Much more fun too!

Hope this helps.

Juan M. Mercado

 

[Spartan]

So Juan,
What was the transition like for you going from the point/tournement scene into the reality sphere? Was there a great awakening right off the bat?

 

[profesormental]

Greetings.

We trained really tough chinese kickboxing (san da) and some grappling, while we learned Wing Chun. The Wing Chun was for "closed door" advanced students.

We sparred almost every day. We did some forms from other Wu Shu systems, (Snake style, Shaolin). And I trained filipino stick/knife and American Kenpo.

This was all I did most of the week after classes for years.

Where I live, there is a lot of street violence. I noticed that it just didn't translate completely to the street. My Si Fu told me self defense first. And I started listening.

I've had a series of "Great Awakenings". Each one has led me to a road that makes HUGE jumps in my skills... I mean, that I start doing things that were almost impossible or really hard before... they become trivial... no effort at all.

Personal Combat and Self Defense is very intricate... and the more you train in it the more you can notice that you can develop the skills to really control an attacker and it is your decision to how much damage to inflict, while completely controlling the person.

You don't have to go gouging eyes, ripping throats, yanking peaches or coconuts... those are things you don't need martial arts to do.

I was told real Mastery of a Martial Skill comes from controlling the attacker and doing as much damage as you want... many times much less than lethal or maiming...

because now, even if it is self defense, it will land you in jail or with $50,000 in legal fees.

I noticed that in the Personal Combat sphere, the sparring is harder, the thinking much more intricate. You develop an "Iron Body", and most hits just don't hurt after a little while.

It is much more violent, even scary for many people, and to be done right it is not for everyone... because the truth of the matter is that it is tough. Yet it becomes, as everything, palatable that has an acquired taste...

Then you cannot get enough of it...

Also, if someone hits you with something that don't work, you'll know immediately. And if you're hit with something that does work and hurts...

you'll want them to do it again!

Great Happiness!

Hope that helps.

Sincerely,

Juan M. Mercado