Wing Chun against Brazilian Jiu Jitsu

[WingChunEnthusiast]

When I mean BBJ, I don't only mean when you are already on the floor defending yourself, I also mean when the enemy charges at your waist to slam you against the ground. I just want to know what your thought is on BBJ grappling, not just about preventing grappling. Another move is being charged at the waist or your waist is already held onto.
If Wing Chun doesn't have a defense for BBJ, it's about time to start developing one.

 

[WingChunEnthusiast]

Also, I am new to WC. I just want to know what ideas you guys have

 

[KPM]

Pretty much the same defense you would use against as wrestling double leg takedown. You try to get off the line with your footwork, you extend a Gum Sau to the back of the head if he is charging in low and try to push him off the line so he can't get ahold of you. This can be followed quickly by a rising knee strike or a strike to the head. If he is more upright, then this becomes a Pak Sau or Palm to the face to turn his head and stop his charge. If he gets ahold of you, you throw your feet back and your torso forward into a Yee Gee Kim Yeung Ma with lots of forward pressure. This is pretty much the equivalent of a "standing sprawl" and helps to keep you from going over backwards.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

When I mean BBJ, I don't only mean when you are already on the floor defending yourself, I also mean when the enemy charges at your waist to slam you against the ground. I just want to know what your thought is on BBJ grappling, not just about preventing grappling. Another move is being charged at the waist or your waist is already held onto.
If Wing Chun doesn't have a defense for BBJ, it's about time to start developing one.

Random thoughts:

• It's BJJ, not BBJ
• Charging at your waist isn't the only approach to takedowns in BJJ. The takedowns in BJJ are basically the same as those in wrestling, Judo, and Sombo. The only difference is that BJJ practitioners tend not to be as practiced with takedowns as practitioners of those other arts.
• Using your arms as a barrier is your first defense against clinching. Note that this will require changing levels if your opponent drops down to shoot for the waist. Cutting an angle at the same time helps.
• If the opponent does get under your arms and reaches your legs, then a sprawl is your next line of defense, as KPM notes.
• If you do get taken down, then you are best off consulting with a grappling specialist for the best approach to protecting yourself and getting back to your feet. The techniques for doing this do not violate Wing Chun principles, but my observation is that WC instructors who try to figure them out from scratch tend to do a poor job of it.
• WC practitioners don't really need to have a game plan for dealing with an opponent who does BJJ unless they are planning on doing challenge bouts or MMA. The odds of being mugged by a BJJ expert are relatively small.

 

[wckf92]

1) Hit/strike/kick/punch/gouge him any way you can, with the intention of either A) breaking something, or B) keeping him away from you
2) rinse and repeat

Oh, and it's BJJ...not BBJ

 

[oaktree]

When I mean BBJ, I don't only mean when you are already on the floor defending yourself, I also mean when the enemy charges at your waist to slam you against the ground. I just want to know what your thought is on BBJ grappling, not just about preventing grappling. Another move is being charged at the waist or your waist is already held onto.
If Wing Chun doesn't have a defense for BBJ, it's about time to start developing one.

What I think you are implying is a shoot, not everyone who shoots in goes to the waist sometimes it's for a single or double leg take down which could be from heel to back of legs. Some shoots could be to close the gap and result in a clinch or and a set up for a throw. In my opinion, if you want to deal with a grapple learn how to grapple as Tony suggested and bring the game back up to your expertise area. Know how to take a fall if taken down, how to have a basic understanding of guard positions, escapes, reversals.

 

[Phobius]

Problem in WC is you can't train in how to fight against a grappler without having a grappler present. So to train in it from WC perspective you need to learn grappling in my view.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Problem in WC is you can't train in how to fight against a grappler without having a grappler present. So to train in it from WC perspective you need to learn grappling in my view.

You don't know any grapplers you can spar with? I find that's an excellent way to learn. I don't necessarily need to learn BJJ to defend against it. I can experiment with a BJJ practitioner to see what works and what doesn't.
Not saying that training in BJJ wouldn't also work, I'm just saying I think empiric evidence would also be an option.

 

[Phobius]

True but I want to find out weaknesses and experiment with them. Where I live most BJJ are afraid of what shame there would be to fall taking down a Kung Fu practitioner. Prestige, macho culture or simply not interested in doing non sports BJJ. Most I do not know and would have to train BJJ in order to get to know well enough. Just the culture of the people where I live. Besides or maybe because it is a good excuse for me to learn grappling itself which I want to do.

 

[Paul_D]

If Wing Chun doesn't have a defense for BBJ, it's about time to start developing one.

Why?

Presumably you ae not refering to sporting contests as you refer to the "enemy". Do you live in a city where BJJ practitioners roam the streets starting street fights with WC students? What are the circumstances which are regulalrly occuring that as a WC student you need to defend yourself against the BJJ enemy?

 

[MAfreak]

i think its good that the op, who wants to be prepared for all theoretically possible situations, asks
what "his" system has to offer for it. but i agree with the others. for defending against grapplers, train with grapplers. everything else is just theory and won't help much. the best will always be to mix everything up, for self defense as well as for hybrid sports.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

If Wing Chun doesn't have a defense for BBJ, it's about time to start developing one.

If your opponent's hands can't touch your body, he can't take you down. In order to do so, you can use your

- footwork to move out of your opponent's attacking path, or
- arms to deflect your opponent's arms and avoid "clinch".

Both approaches may be too conservative of thinking. IMO, the best way is to "cross train" a grappling art and be good at it. Try to find a wrestling partner and wrestle 15 rounds daily. Besides you will have a lot of fun, you will develop your grappling skill in 3 years.

 

[Paul_D]

for self defense

This is my point. You are both wrongly assuming that self defence will bear any resemblence to what happens inside the dojo, and that you wil be "fighting" a skilled & trained martial artist. Do people regularly get into street brawls with other trained martial artist, it happens yes, but martial artists (At least the ones I know) are not in the habit of brawing in the street.

Do people think criminals spend time training in martial arts? They don’t "fight", in fact a "fight" is the last thing they want, as such becoming an "all round martial artist" is not necessary for dealing with career criminals. In The Complete Book Of Urban Combatives, Lee Morrison says "The physical side of the equation is pretty simple: just develop two or three effective strikes that can be executed hard and that work well."

You only need to become an "all round martial artist" for the purposes of self defence if you a) are martial artist who wronly assumes you will be gettign into street "fights" with other skilled & trained martial artsist, or or b) you do not understand the realities of criminal violence, or the "rituals of violent" used by professional criminals.

 

[MAfreak]

everyone can fall down. anyway often "street fights" end up in something similar to wrestling or jj, so thats why you should train it to be better prepared. not sure why you don't understand that.

 

[WingChunEnthusiast]

This is my point. You are both wrongly assuming that self defence will bear any resemblence to what happens inside the dojo, and that you wil be "fighting" a skilled & trained martial artist. Do people regularly get into street brawls with other trained martial artist, it happens yes, but martial artists (At least the ones I know) are not in the habit of brawing in the street.

Do people think criminals spend time training in martial arts? They don’t "fight", in fact a "fight" is the last thing they want, as such becoming an "all round martial artist" is not necessary for dealing with career criminals. In The Complete Book Of Urban Combatives, Lee Morrison says "The physical side of the equation is pretty simple: just develop two or three effective strikes that can be executed hard and that work well."

You only need to become an "all round martial artist" for the purposes of self defence if you a) are martial artist who wronly assumes you will be gettign into street "fights" with other skilled & trained martial artsist, or or b) you do not understand the realities of criminal violence, or the "rituals of violent" used by professional criminals.

I have a different mindset when walking the streets. It is to bring a gun or a knife. Martial arts is a secondary. But there are too many factors when it comes to street brawls. But the idea that learning martial arts for the purpose of self-defense is absurd. There should be more to martial arts that just self defense. But I am not after self defense.

I am after WC developing it's own defense and offense against BJJ, and I want to throw this idea out there to a person who is able to practice with a BJJ practitioner. Why should WC do that in the first place? I do it for the satisfaction of knowing that WC would feel a little more advance than it's predecessor, achieving a more evolved state. You should feel the need for any kind of improvement instead of deeming it as a futile task.

All I want to know is your thoughts about WC against BJJ.

 

[Tez3]

Also, I am new to WC

I am after WC developing it's own defense and offense against BJJ, and I want to throw this idea out there to a person who is able to practice with a BJJ practitioner. Why should WC do that in the first place? I do it for the satisfaction of knowing that WC would feel a little more advance than it's predecessor, achieving a more evolved state. You should feel the need for any kind of improvement instead of deeming it as a futile task.

These two posts don't agree with each other do they? On one hand you are saying you are new to WC on the other you are speaking as if you were an expert in WC and are criticising it. Please explain.

 

[WingChunEnthusiast]

These two posts don't agree with each other do they? On one hand you are saying you are new to WC on the other you are speaking as if you were an expert in WC and are criticising it. Please explain.

I believe I know nothing about about WC since I've been training and studying WC for a only few months now, and I'm only applying what I've currently learned about WC. I also feel as if 3-4 years of WC is not close enough to be termed as an expert.

 

[Phobius]

I believe I know nothing about about WC since I've been training and studying WC for a only few months now, and I'm only applying what I've currently learned about WC. I also feel as if 3-4 years of WC is not close enough to be termed as an expert.

You should consider one point though, there is nothing preventing learning multiple systems.

One should when 'mastering' WC be able to find what other systems can be incorporated into it to perfect not the system but the fighter himself. But to think you can build something new to prevent grappling, without learning the hundred and more years of development that has gone into the ground game.

And practising given ideas against a BJJ master would not offer good foundation because this is where we are missing the second point. You will not beat someone that trains several years more than you do on a given scenario, by training a more advanced technique. Once an art is mastered you will understand it is in the simple techniques where you can outplay your opponents.

So as a new student, while you may not see it now.. SLT is so much more than just the basic starting form. It is the form where you will unlock true potential once you know all the rest. Not bad for a little idea.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

The WC sticky hands is a nice bridge to cross over to the grappling art. For example, in the following picture, both persons can

- rotate his/her right arm and obtain an under hook, or waist wrap.
- comb his/her hair with left arm and obtain an over hook, arm wrap, or head lock.
- pull down opponent's left arm, raise up opponent's left arm, strike right shoulder on opponent's chest, move in, and ...
- ...

All those training are ready to be trained in your WC sticky hands drill. It's up to you whether you want to include those training or not.

 

[drop bear]

Which bjj are we talking about? Random student or someone at metomoris level?

Bjj is good because it has access to world class martial artists.

And there is a trickle down effect.