William Durbin, Koga Ryu - Kosho Ryu connection?

[The Kai]

GAB

Actuaaly saw the word at the bottom of the post (oops). I don't think convoluted would be the best word. Entrenched perhaps, As in I have a idea of innocence entrenched in my ming and nothing can dissuade me?

I did not know that the name had two meanings -although I have to admit killing and old man really doe'nt seem to be a gate protector thing to do. ??
Todd

 

[GAB]

Hi Kai,

Do you think I believe Mitose was innocent, or Hanshi feels that way?

I have many times stated, my opinion or thoughts.

I am as confused as anyone else who was not there, do I believe he got a fair trial, probably did, in light of some of the stuff Doc posted.

Sounds like the guy was a whacko, maybe he was a functioning skitso, I don't have any idea.

But since he died of complications from diabetes, that explains some of his problems right there.

Regards, Gary

 

[BlackCatBonz]

well i have to say i agree with john bishop on this one......maybe terry lee is a good martial artist......maybe he did study with mitose for 7 weeks and came away with something, but if mitose was your typical japanese guy, he probably gave terry a few straws to grasp at, and not much more. ive been studying for 8 short years.......maybe in thirty years my skills will be developed enough with what i have learned thus far to demonstrate some sort of mastery......but i doubt if i had 7 weeks of training and ran with it, i would really have anything to go on.
i hope i am making some kind of sense here.
any thoughts, guys?

shawn

 

[BlackCatBonz]

oh yeah.....i would also like to mention......and i dont mean this as a slam against other martial artists. but there was a group in canada that was afilliated with hanshi for awhile.....and when i first started studying some of these guys were 4th dan in their own systems.......now fast forward a few years and these guys are affilliated with nimr hassan and they are 10th dans, and have their own kosho ryu organizations not affiliated with skski. this stuff used to really bug me.......but i know what im getting, and ive studied with numerous other teachers to know what i am seeing.
but its like any organization that gets some hair brained splinter group and goes off on some big tangent........i know some of the other senior teachers here have seen this.
its just my 2 cents as far as teachers or students aligning themselves with something that will get them there faster than good old fashioned training.

shawn

 

[Don Roley]

We had this discussion about Mitose's Seiko Fujita connection on the Kajukenbo Cafe. A representative of Fujita's art wrote in and stated it is absolutely not true, no connection what-so-ever. I'll have to go through the archives to find it when I have time. I do recall this gentlemen being legit and posting his name, position and so forth so we took this information to be valid.

A member of Fujita's art? Fujita did train people in arts other than ninjutsu. One is called a kenpo style and is still practiced not far from where I live. Is that what this person was claiming?

And for years I have been looking and asking this question, is there any proof that Mitose himself claimed to have studied under Fujita? As far as I can tell, all the claims come from Terry Lee and I know of no one that can say with confidence or provide proof that Mitose made the claim. And considering that Lee was willing to kill an elderly couple, I do not think it is too much to suspect that maybe he would sink so low as to lie about something like this.

 

[Jeff Boler]

Don,

If i'm not mistaken, Fujita's main art was Sato Ryu Kempo. It is Durbin's theory that Fujita was also a master of Koga Ryu Ninjutsu. Now in everything else that I have read, Fujita was nothing more than a historian on Ninjutsu, not an actual practitioner. I have seen nothing to back up the claim that Fujita was a master of Koga Ryu.

According to Durbin, Fujita travelled in an entourage that followed Choki Motobu (apparently an uncle to Mitose). It's Durbin's theory that Fujita taught Choki Motobu Koga Ryu Ninjutsu, who in turned transferred the knowledge to Mitose.

See an article on this here: http://kiyojuteryu.org:8084/soke/articles/mitose.shtml

What Hassan retained from Mitose remains to be seen. I know that Durbin has acted as a historian for that Ryu for many years. I know that their curriculum contains the arts of Hichojutsu, Hayagakejutsu, Suieijutsu, Koppo, and Karumijutsu. It seems that Koppo (bone breaking) and Karumijutsu (body lightening) have a higher level of importance in the art.

Also, it has been many years since I have stepped foot in Durbin's dojo, so I can't comment on the current Ninpo (or Nimpo as he spells it) training in Kiyojute Ryu or Koga Ha Kosho Shorei Ryu. I have ordered a copy of Durbin's book, and will post a review when I have finished it.

It will be interesting to see if Durbin attempts to link Koga Ryu and Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu, as he now has a Shodan rank in Hatsumi's system.

 

[The Kai]

Motubu I don't think was Mitose's uncle

Save your money on the book

 

[Jeff Boler]

Reading back through Durbin's lineage and history on the subject, I can't find a reference to Motobu being Mitose's uncle. So, I'm not sure of the total relationship between the two.

It should also be noted that Hassan's art is listed under the Okinawan lineage of Durbin's handbook. There is no reference as to who Fujita would have studied Koga Ryu Ninjutsu from. Maybe the book will be a bit more specfic.

 

[Don Roley]

If i'm not mistaken, Fujita's main art was Sato Ryu Kempo. It is Durbin's theory that Fujita was also a master of Koga Ryu Ninjutsu. Now in everything else that I have read, Fujita was nothing more than a historian on Ninjutsu, not an actual practitioner. I have seen nothing to back up the claim that Fujita was a master of Koga Ryu.

He is treated like a practicioner of Koga ryu in Japan. I have bought all of his books that I know of. I have read accounts of him. Some of what he did does not sound like ninjutsu to me, but it is a fact that he gave demonstrations of what is billed as "ninjutsu" in Japan. So, I think it is best to call him a master of Koga ryu.

Oh, and it was not Sato ryu, but a similar name. I will see if I can remember it. But yes, it was a form of kenpo.

The problem I have is finding a succesor to the art. No source in Japan seems to admit that he had one. I am trying to find out if Mitose actually made the claim himself. I do not really trust his word on it even if he did. But if it all comes down to the word of Terry Lee, then I want to know.

 

[Jeff Boler]

Well the primary source of the information is in fact Lee / Hassan. Now Durbin has stated in the past that Hassan showed him all of the documentation that Mitose had given him, but it contained no lineages or historical information. To my knowledge, Mitose never stated that his Koga Ryu Ninjutsu came from Fujita. This is nothing more than a theory of Durbin's.

I have heard stories about how Parker and Chow Kenpo students visited Mitose, and was un-impressed by his techniques. The Koga Ha guys claim that this is because he was demonstrating Koppo, not Kempo, and they simply didn't understand it.

 

[Karazenpo]

A member of Fujita's art? Fujita did train people in arts other than ninjutsu. One is called a kenpo style and is still practiced not far from where I live. Is that what this person was claiming?

And for years I have been looking and asking this question, is there any proof that Mitose himself claimed to have studied under Fujita? As far as I can tell, all the claims come from Terry Lee and I know of no one that can say with confidence or provide proof that Mitose made the claim. And considering that Lee was willing to kill an elderly couple, I do not think it is too much to suspect that maybe he would sink so low as to lie about something like this.

Hi Don, I agree. As far as the source I mentioned, again, give me some time and I'll go through the archives at the Cafe and find it and when I do, I'll cut and paste it here. Take care & be safe, "Joe"

 

[Karazenpo]

Reading back through Durbin's lineage and history on the subject, I can't find a reference to Motobu being Mitose's uncle. So, I'm not sure of the total relationship between the two.

It should also be noted that Hassan's art is listed under the Okinawan lineage of Durbin's handbook. There is no reference as to who Fujita would have studied Koga Ryu Ninjutsu from. Maybe the book will be a bit more specfic.

Hi Jeff, the Mitose/Motobu uncle relationship has been heavily disputed over the years and last I knew it had no merit. As far as Koga ryu and Seiko Fujita goes.......well,,,,,,,,,,wait until you start really digging into that one! His story, lineage and background has as many holes in it as Mitose's! Check it out!

 

[Jeff Boler]

Hi Jeff, the Mitose/Motobu uncle relationship has been heavily disputed over the years and last I knew it had no merit. As far as Koga ryu and Seiko Fujita goes.......well,,,,,,,,,,wait until you start really digging into that one! His story, lineage and background has as many holes in it as Mitose's! Check it out!

I've gone back through Durbin's documentation, and he says he received information about the Uncle / Nephew relationship from Robert Trias, if that helps.

 

[Karazenpo]

well i have to say i agree with john bishop on this one......maybe terry lee is a good martial artist......maybe he did study with mitose for 7 weeks and came away with something, but if mitose was your typical japanese guy, he probably gave terry a few straws to grasp at, and not much more. ive been studying for 8 short years.......maybe in thirty years my skills will be developed enough with what i have learned thus far to demonstrate some sort of mastery......but i doubt if i had 7 weeks of training and ran with it, i would really have anything to go on.
i hope i am making some kind of sense here.
any thoughts, guys?

shawn

Hi Shawn, hope all is well. Shawn, when I started really getting into the history of our Hawaiian derived kenpo/kempo thing, there were a lot of surprises. I was warned by by my good friend, Sifu Bruce Corrigan to be careful for i might be disappointed, so I was a little prepared and now, I'm totally prepared!, lol. If you dig you will find that it was not uncommon that some of our forefathers way back when started systems and became highly respected masters with the ability and knowledge to back it up with initial training consisting of the mere fundementals, some were blue belts, some purple belts, still others, 'white' belts. Again, these individuals were not the 'norm' but had the natural ability, determination and drive to self develop and strive by seeking out other instructors to not only evolve themselves but to provide a strong structured system. I really don't think rank and years under one master was such a big thing back in thoose early years as we rever it today as to one's worth or place in the arts. I know the above for fact and these men stand undisputed as to their contributions to the art and their place as street tough s.o.b.'s not to be taken lightly by anyone in today's martial art world! They have their undeniable place in our history. Don't get me wrong, I'm no fan of Lee/Hassan at all, just trying to give you some insight into what I've experienced when I delved into our history. I would have never believed these things in my earlier years, perhaps, I was a bit naieve then, lol. This why I don't have a problem with Mitose if it is uncovered that he only trained under Nabura Tanamaha in Okinawan Kenpo and never made his black belt either. He took what he learned and started this whole kenpo thing that we are all a part of. I have no problem with that. The problem is to others out there, if this is proved to be undisputed about Mitose's training then be careful about passing judgement on it because you may find the same thing in the history of your lineage and system! Like I stated, if true about Mitose, then believe me, he wasn't the only one! Something to ponder...................

 

[wadokai_indo]

A member of Fujita's art? Fujita did train people in arts other than ninjutsu. One is called a kenpo style and is still practiced not far from where I live. Is that what this person was claiming?

I am sorry if I am off topic here..

If I am not mistaken, Iwata Manzo from Shito-ryu received a license in Daien-ryu Jo-Jutsu and Nanban Sato-ryu Kenpo from Fujita sensei.

http://members.cox.net/shitokai/manzoiwata.htm
http://www.shitoryu.org/bios/iwata/iwata.htm

Inoue sensei from Yuishinkai also trained in Daien-ryu.

http://yuishinkai.netfirms.com/Library/Inoue.htm

I am very much interested to know whether these information are correct or not.

Thank you!

Ben Haryo

 

[Karazenpo]

A member of Fujita's art? Fujita did train people in arts other than ninjutsu. One is called a kenpo style and is still practiced not far from where I live. Is that what this person was claiming?

And for years I have been looking and asking this question, is there any proof that Mitose himself claimed to have studied under Fujita? As far as I can tell, all the claims come from Terry Lee and I know of no one that can say with confidence or provide proof that Mitose made the claim. And considering that Lee was willing to kill an elderly couple, I do not think it is too much to suspect that maybe he would sink so low as to lie about something like this.

Found it, Don!

2 General / Martial Arts Talk / Re:Solving a Mitose Mystery (?) on: June 22, 2004, 11:54:34 AM
Started by Professor Joe Shuras, Message by Henso
For factual information on Fujita Seiko and his various arts, my I humbly suggest my site dedicated to his martial arts career, which is collected from independent historical resources: http://fujitaseiko.tripod.com.

In my research I found no evidence that their is or was anyone who learned Fujita's Ninjutsu, and in fact, interviews with him categorically state that he didn't teach the system to anyone. As concerns the matter of Nanban Sato ryu Kenpo-Jutsu, it is not a Kenpo system as is understood currently, but, a grappling system that is related to the famous Seigo ryu, via its branch school, Nanban Ippon ryu.

Please review and comment/critique away. Additionally, any factual information about Fujita that is not present would be appreciated.

Phillip T. Hevener

 

[Karazenpo]

I've gone back through Durbin's documentation, and he says he received information about the Uncle / Nephew relationship from Robert Trias, if that helps.

Jeff, let me get in touch with Dr. Roberta Trias-Kelly. She has access to all her father's notes and his relationship with Mitose and is puting together a book on her father's life. As soon as I find out I'll post it.

 

[Jeff Boler]

Here it is. I actually found the text in which Durbin mentions Trias, as well as the family relationship between Motobu and Mitose.

It is believed that at some point Shorei Ryu Kempo of Okinawa, found it's way into the art. Some feel that during the time that the great Kempo master Choki Motobu lived on Japan, he taught the members of his entourage the skills of Shorei Ryu Kempo. James Masayoshi Mitose, who according to Robert Trias, was a maternal nephew of Motobu was believed to have been a member of that entourage, along with the great Seiko Fujita, a master of both Sato Ryu Kempo and Koga Ryu Ninjutsu. This would have given James Masayoshi Mitose the opportunity to study both arts.

 

[John Bishop]

I've gone back through Durbin's documentation, and he says he received information about the Uncle / Nephew relationship from Robert Trias, if that helps.

I have letters from the late Robert Trias, and Richard Kim. Both state that there was no family relationship between James Mitose and Choki Motobu.
The rumor was started by Mitose himself, who claimed in the 40's-50's that Motobu was his uncle and teacher.

 

[The Kai]

Where does his (Durbin'd)Kempo lineage come from? He did not meet Nimer until much later on