William Durbin, Koga Ryu - Kosho Ryu connection?

[Templar]

I noticed on E-Budo that Dr. William Durbin, Soke of Kiyojute Ryu Kempo has written a book on Koga Ryu Ninjutsu.

http://www.paladin-press.com/detail.aspx?ID=1153

There are some interesting articles on Mr. Durbin's site pertaining to Kempo, and it supposed links to Koga Ryu. You can view Mr. Durbin's site here.

http://www.kiyojuteryu.org

Now without starting a flame war, I would like to hear some response on Mr. Durbin's work, especially when it comes to Mitose and Ninjutsu. Apparently, Durbin has studied the method through Nimr Hassan, Mitose's one and only student during the time of the trial. He claims that Mitose actually learned the art through Seiko Fujita, who was apart of the entourage that followed Choki Motobu around Japan.

Any thoughts?

 

[The Kai]

IMHO-Durbin's writings, and lineage have to viewd with more than a grain of salt. Most of his history is assumptions, half facts and imagination!

Todd

 

[John Bishop]

Nimr Hassan's (Terry Lee) Kosho Ryu expertise is highly questionable since he was a student of Mitose's for only 7 WEEKS.

 

[GAB]

Hi,

I have checked the net at various times (over years) and have observed many different groups (they are growing) who are off shoots of Kosho.
Now they are the head of their own group.

If someone was to get 7 weeks of training from a Master, and then take that information and find other information and double their knowledge and do this continuously over a 30 year period. Would they not have gained a lot of information? Could they not call themselves a master in their own right?

Do we all have to take the same path? Some are OK with one teacher or one way to do something, others are not.

I was at a seminar this weekend, The Master is a 10th Dan in the art of his Father, and his own making, after many years in search and revision.
His name is Ramiro U. Estalilla, He likes to say, "In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is King."

We were talking about the numerous arts in the Filipines, he related it to chicken. He said everyone has a martial art in the Filipines, just like we all eat chicken, we may serve it different, but it is still chicken.

I liked that! He is a very nice man and very humble, he has a different approach to the sticks. I enjoyed myself, learned some new moves and application of the stick. I add that, to what I have been learning, or have known for many years.

Numerous persons were promoted to Black Belt in his system that day after the seminar.

It was really good to talk to some of them. Some were from different schools of thought, but were there to continue their path and learning.

Quite a few were very proficient in the art they had been in for many many years. He teaches to the teachers. We were talking about Guro Dan Inosanto,
(this is what I have been learning of late).
I mentioned his name (Guro Dan) "Apo" as he is called, said, oh yes, Danny, he comes and takes private lessons from me still a couple of times a year...

I was impressed...For several reasons. One...he was an instructor to all and he was an instructor to the instructors. Two...that instructors were seeking new information and not static.

With all this said, I don't think some one who has spent 20 or 30 years in the arts can be just kissed off because he spent a few weeks or months with one instructor. A lot of people are self taught and very good, in fact I think the person who is 'seeking continuously' is the one who is learning more and has much knowledge in many things, more like a blanket rather than a needle.

I worked out with my Son this weekend as a partner, his children are now taking martial arts. That is pretty neat....

Regards, Gary

 

[The Kai]

Really there is no problem with being self taught. But please do not claim expertise in a systm that you only have a limited amount of training in! There are people that remaon with the same instructor for years on end - that would be the expert in the system, not someone who devoted a odd weekend to the study of that particulr art.

True to some degree all martial movement is universal, but the attitude and attributes behind each style can and do change radically! If you are so sure of this premise start teaching the universal way -with of course yourself as the founder of univerisal ness.
Todd

 

[Jeff Boler]

I'm going to reserve judgement on this until I read the book. As a former student of Mr. Durbin, I have always found his theories on Mitose and his relationship to Koga Ryu interesting. Granted, there are always gaps and holes when it comes to Koga anything, but Durbin's theories are a whole lot closer than what most Koga guys are able to come up with.

A bigger issue for me will be whether or not he mentions Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu, as he is now a student in this art form under the Juko Kai umbrella. (Under John Willson of Canada). I will be interested to see if tries to link them in somehow....

 

[The Kai]

Giving Durbin's leanings with supposition I imagine he could and probably will tie the two arts together

 

[GAB]

Hi Kai.
Your statement is correct, I would never say I am the expert in an art that I only attended for one weekend. But I will be going back for more information this tuesday night and going to set up some private work with Sensei Tim Evans.

I guess again, that is the only thing, you got out of my story???
After talking with "Apo" I feel he has the right approach in respects to the arts.
I find in the Filipino arts many many combination of styles and many many systems. I like the reference "it is all chicken".

Regards, Gary

 

[GAB]

I'm going to reserve judgement on this until I read the book. As a former student of Mr. Durbin, I have always found his theories on Mitose and his relationship to Koga Ryu interesting. Granted, there are always gaps and holes when it comes to Koga anything, but Durbin's theories are a whole lot closer than what most Koga guys are able to come up with.

A bigger issue for me will be whether or not he mentions Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu, as he is now a student in this art form under the Juko Kai umbrella. (Under John Willson of Canada). I will be interested to see if tries to link them in somehow....

Hi Jeff,

Did you learn anything from your experience with the Dr.

Did you have much information when you started, did you have more when you left? You sound like you are pretty reserved regarding your association.

Supposition, like the conversations, going on in EPAK about techniques and the different opinions on a daily basis, or many other topics on this board.

Regards, Gary

 

[Jeff Boler]

Let me say that my problems with Mr. Durbin are not in his abilities, or his knowledge. I have some problems with people that he chooses to associate with, but that's about it.

I went in Kiyojute Ryu Kempo with a dan rank in Hapkido. I learned a lot under Durbin, and was surprised at the size of the Kiyojute Ryu curriculum. (Which is what really got me interested.)

Durbin's an excellent teacher, and seemed to have a good handle on technique. His historical research seemed to be an attempt at further bolsting his claims of lineage, but maybe that's just my observation.

Durbin is set in his beliefs that Mitose was not the monster that everyone makes him out to be. He believes that Mitose was setup, therefore not necessarily guilty of the crimes he committed. I believe Durbin is simply trying to look at the positive contributions of Mitose, instead of the negative.

I can't, necessarily, find fault in that.

 

[Karazenpo]

I noticed on E-Budo that Dr. William Durbin, Soke of Kiyojute Ryu Kempo has written a book on Koga Ryu Ninjutsu.

http://www.paladin-press.com/detail.aspx?ID=1153

There are some interesting articles on Mr. Durbin's site pertaining to Kempo, and it supposed links to Koga Ryu. You can view Mr. Durbin's site here.

http://www.kiyojuteryu.org

Now without starting a flame war, I would like to hear some response on Mr. Durbin's work, especially when it comes to Mitose and Ninjutsu. Apparently, Durbin has studied the method through Nimr Hassan, Mitose's one and only student during the time of the trial. He claims that Mitose actually learned the art through Seiko Fujita, who was apart of the entourage that followed Choki Motobu around Japan.

Any thoughts?

We had this discussion about Mitose's Seiko Fujita connection on the Kajukenbo Cafe. A representative of Fujita's art wrote in and stated it is absolutely not true, no connection what-so-ever. I'll have to go through the archives to find it when I have time. I do recall this gentlemen being legit and posting his name, position and so forth so we took this information to be valid.
Personally, I think Dr. Durbin is way off in his history connections with Mitose and doesn't even mention Nabura Tanamaha, a 1st or 2nd generation Motobu black belt whom Mitose has been traced to as training under in Hawaii. If you carefully read Durbin's claims you will see they are not backed by fact and much is attributed to the word of Nmir Hassan (Terry Lee). Hey, didn't he do jail time for murder???? So we're going to believe him, right? I don't think so.

 

[The Kai]

Hi Kai.
I guess again, that is the only thing, you got out of my story???
After talking with "Apo" I feel he has the right approach in respects to the arts.
I find in the Filipino arts many many combination of styles and many many systems. I like the reference "it is all chicken".

Regards, Gary

Actually, I got the entire post. It's all chicken -right

though it may all be chicken, there is a difference how it is prepared in the phillipines of in france. Again chicken may be the basics but there so many other considerations, spices, methods of preparation, pasta,etc. Sometimes it does'nt taste or look like the chicken we know (that might not be bad per se).
Are you eating the chicken as a appetizer, main course, or a add-on?
Do you have special diety needs? It might all be the same chicken, but not same in taste, texture, smell or even order it is being consumed.
Again all the basics are there but you have a heck of a lot of combinations!
Being good at french cuisine might not make you the best choice for chef at a italian restruant
Todd

 

[The Kai]

Durbin is set in his beliefs that Mitose was not the monster that everyone makes him out to be. He believes that Mitose was setup, therefore not necessarily guilty of the crimes he committed. I believe Durbin is simply trying to look at the positive contributions of Mitose, instead of the negative.

I can't, necessarily, find fault in that.

if he believes Mitose is innocent, and buddies with terry lee-who is responsible for the murders?

What is Durbin;s actual lineage (who what did he start with)?
Todd

 

[GAB]

Hi Kai,

Yes, you are right on...

Regards, Gary

 

[GAB]

if he believes Mitose is innocent, and buddies with terry lee-who is responsible for the murders?

What is Durbin;s actual lineage (who what did he start with)?
Todd

Hi, I posted on another board about the whole Mitose thing. I find that the word I used is very appropriate here.

Convoluted

Regards, Gary

 

[The Kai]

Help me out here so i'm not guessing what word you mean

Thankss
todd

 

[Jeff Boler]

What is Durbin;s actual lineage (who what did he start with)?

Here's the heart of the problem that I had with Durbin. The majority of Durbin's lineage is through Rod Sacharnoski, of Juko Kai. He did end up receiving a 5th dan (I think) from Hassan in Koga Ha Kosho Shorei Ryu Kempo and Ninjutsu.

Durbin has gone to both Juchnick and Thomas Mitose, and received some sort of "recognition" of his Sokeship in Kiyojute Ryu. Now what that means, I don't really know.

 

[Karazenpo]

if he believes Mitose is innocent, and buddies with terry lee-who is responsible for the murders?

What is Durbin;s actual lineage (who what did he start with)?
Todd

Here's his website:


www.kiyojuteryu.org

 

[The Kai]

Thanks Karazenpo, but I am familiar with Mr Durbin

I why I'm asking is that durbin did'nt hook up with Dr. Ron till later on his travels
Todd

 

[GAB]

I like his (durbin)Mon, I do believe he should have added the octagon though.

Kai...The word is convoluted. I posted it in the other post also.
It would be appropriate here also...
Hassan, (hassan) when he is using that term, has anyone talked to him to find out, if it is from the meaning of western thought, or eastern thought, have in mind?

The Eastern or Arab world, say, it is not to be confused with the way we the Western people think.

Western thought, Hassan... is connected to the Assassains, Eastern feel it is the keeper of the true meaning of the way. His full name in Western thought interpreted is... Nimer=Panther... Hassan= Assassain. Or Arab would be, Panther+ Keeper of the way or Gatekeeper, or maybe the Gate protector.

What do you think???

Regards, Gary