Why Ng Mui was so brilliant in coming up with this
- Thread starter Yew
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mook jong man
Senior Master
martyg
Yellow Belt
People still follow that Ng Mui story?
Why? You got a better one?
martyg
Yellow Belt
Actually, yes. Not every branch follows that story, and modern research leads in a more plausible direction. I'm just quite surprised people are still reciting it when all the rest of the information has been out in the public for so long. Others include connections to Tan Sau Ng, various well known groups and individuals of the time, connections between Weng Chun village and Emei, weng chun hall, and even just a continual evolution amongst the opera troop. But the whole "Ng Mui" thing comes from a well known collection of folk tales collected up at the time, entitled "10,000 Years Spring", and researchers with access to documents and records from the mainland don't take very seriously. In fact the story or similar stories are found as cover stories in other southern arts from the time. From your other post (in the distance learning thread) it looks like you're originally from Leung Ting's family? He even released a book not long ago researching and discussing most of this (from his perspective), Roots of Wing Tsun.
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Sorry, as far as folktales go, the stories of Ng Mui and Yim Wing Chun are far more interesting and instructive than the whole Weng Chun hall legend. The story of Ng Mui and Wing Chun, like all good folktales has a meaning or moral. It encapsulates the essence of a system that is based on efficiency, simplicity, practicality, and the use of technique to turn a stronger opponent's force back against him. I don't see any such lessons in the old Weng Chun hall and Red Junk fables. They seem to far more concerned with the supposed Ming loyalist and secret society origins of the system. And, sorry, but no legitimate and objective research that I've seen has revealed anything remotely reliable about the roots of any of the various lineages before the period of Leung Jan and others in the early to mid 19th Century.
The best evidence to date conservatively recognises that all the lineages probably had roots in a popular regional fighting style of the Fatshan or Fo'shan region with narrow, upright stances and an emphasis on close range fighting, low kicks and short, fast striking techniques. One variation of these systems took its name from the Weng Chun Precinct of Fatshan, and as its adepts travelled and taught, they gave rise to various versions using similar names. Did an opera troupe on one of the "red junks" (there were many) play an important role? Quite likely...but as there are no verified written documents from those times, we are all just left with oral traditions. But those oral traditions are rich and I treasure them. Just don't go around bashing one group's oral traditions while proclaiming that your own group's are somehow more factual. Remember about people in glass houses...
Now, what is your favorite folktale about the roots of our art?
martyg
Yellow Belt
Which is your opinion of course. It does not take away the fact that there was a book entitled Wan Lin Ching (10,000 years green) published at the time (late 1700's) that was a self acknowledged connection of folk tales that also included the "5 elders", etc. Or the fact that other colloquial origin stories from the time also borrow from said tales. Or even older books. Or the fact that published, scholarly research from the mainland has long ago established the fact there was no "Southern Shaolin temple" or "five elders". Thats what lead some researchers to believe it was possibly Weng Chun Hall that was actually being refered to.
Which means a lot of different things to different people, even within this art.
If fable lessons is what you judge as being most important, than I understand your position.
Actually, from what I've seen over the many years of published research, they deal with those things because that is the reality of life at the time and available records and documents from the period still kept on the mainland that can be cross referenced. I prefer not take take martial oral tales, or even some written ones, at face value. Cross referencing with existing written and documented history is a standard part of the process.
I'm sorry, but you'll have to define what you mean as "legitimate and objective" and what your qualifications for someone meeting that are. Otherwise, it comes off as "I've seen it, I just don't believe it, no matter what".
Actually, mainland written record of people historically involved with the opera troop stops in the mid 1800's when it was forcefully disbanded after participating in the Tai Ping rebellion. Though written records of the opera itself and its members exist from before that period. So you're stating something I don't believe I disagreed with.
Sorry, but are you repeating that for my benefit or everyone elses? That's exactly what I lean towards, included in the summarized explanation and have been promoting for years, being involved with the people you probably got that from. Though, that's a bit of a mish mash. Weng Chun, as a set of characters, has been used for many arts over time, including wihtin our own - though there is also of course Andreas' collection of arts specific to that banner. There is also the connection to Weng Chun (Yong Chun) village, which was home to White Crane Weng Chun (Yong Chun), with that specific art being seen as said primordial "weng chun" art. Interestingly, representatives of that art (literal family that have been there for generations, much like the Chen family in Chen village) had a meeting/conference several years ago where they formall recognized the specific connection between that art and Wing Chun. The family kuen kuits, though being much larger, also containing Wing Chun's specific kuen kuits. Adding further to everything, there's also the connection to Emei - both repeated in the "5 elders" story" and in several branches (unrelated to Leung Jan or Yip) records. Hendrik Santo, from the Cho Ga family, was able to make the connection between his family's wing chun "engine" and a specific Emei art (12 post martial qigong), that's refered to as "Snake body" - which by coincidence is of course another well known fable of the system, with "snake and crane". Cho Ga and the unrelated Yuen Kay San family both had records about White Crane Weng Chun and an "emei art" being combined to form the nucleus of wing chun. Interestingly, the family head of the 12 post system was in the US from Emei and formaly acknowledged the connection as well. So I am certainly familiar with what you were putting forth.
Martial wise? No. Written documents on specific key people, the activities of the red boat opera troop, etc. etc.? Certainly there are. There is also a long record kept by the opera troop documenting the history, who was involved when, etc. etc. that can be matched up with their known arts and when they were introduced on to the red boat. All available on the mainland for anyone willing to do the research.
I don't recall bashing anyone. In fact, I'd consider your response an attempt at that, both the original "I dare you" statement of "Why? You got a better one?" and your last one. The original poster started lamenting at the art being created by ng mui, and what a "genius" Ng Mui was. I also consider that to be a mutually exclusive post. My position from the get go has been to exposing people to the wide wide world that is this art, with many many viewpoints, and inrepretations. That's why I originally organized the internet based wing chun community in unity in '92 with the WCML, why I did the multi-family Friendship Seminars in '98 though 2001, and why I seek to maintain friendships across the family as a whole - including in your branch of the Yip family.
Please read before you post. I don't recall promoting "my groups" or any one group's views. I didn't even state mine or "my groups" position. You asked if I heard "better" stories (you're the one that introduced that context of "better" in to the conversation, not me), and I simply responded with a summarization of a number of other positions that are out there - not identifying any of them as mine or "my group's". I.E. I mentioned the Tan Sau Ng one (who there are opera records of existing, but not in any sort of direct connection to this art), that I don't particularly hold in high regard either. I even pointed you to your own family head's research, who I don't completely agree with either. So please show me where I stated "my group" or was promoting "my group". The first time I even identified with "a group" was in this very response now. You're reading a lot in to my posts and about me, that's just was not being said or intended.
Can't say that I do, considering a) Didn't throw any stones, and b) have yet to see an actual glass house other than a greenhouse. But I'm sure you'll tell me its far more interesting to believe in people living in glass homes and throwing stones, because it helps get the colliquial saying across.
I don't follow folk talkes, just keep up on actual research. But thanks.
And I don't feel we're that far removed from our beliefs (or maybe even the same circles).
BTW - I'm Marty Goldberg, pleasure to meet you. What's your name, background etc? (and that's a friendly introduction and question, so there's no misunderstandings)
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Folks please keep the discussion to the art and subject and do not aim comments at each other. A discussion of the history be it fabled or true and the different stories of the origin is welcomed but personal shots are not
sheldon
sheldon
mook jong man
Senior Master
I believe that Wing Chun was brought to Earth by aliens. I base this hypothesis on the fact that the pyramids in Egypt were constructed by an alien civilisation .
Looking closely at the pyramids one can see that they are made up of triangular structures which is similar to the triangular structure found in the Wing Chun stance .
Wait a second , the Eiffel tower in Paris also has a pyramidal type structure reminiscent of a Wing Chun stance .
I have now revised my theory and i am now quite certain that Wing Chun originated in France some time during the Napoleonic wars.
Looking closely at the pyramids one can see that they are made up of triangular structures which is similar to the triangular structure found in the Wing Chun stance .
Wait a second , the Eiffel tower in Paris also has a pyramidal type structure reminiscent of a Wing Chun stance .
I have now revised my theory and i am now quite certain that Wing Chun originated in France some time during the Napoleonic wars.
martyg
Yellow Belt
LOL. Can we at least get in an argument about whether it was the Greys or Little Green Men that founded Wing Chun? Or which pyramid was constructed with more "authentic" wing chun techniques?
Yes, but the Eiffel tower is in France, and that hypothesis would require the French to actually fight for something.
Unless the secret then is Wing Chun's motions were created by French chefs as a secret way to create lighter and fluffier souffle's.I have now revised my theory and i am now quite certain that Wing Chun originated in France some time during the Napoleonic wars.
Napoleon had an awesome Tan Sao. He had to, with that other hand always tucked in to his jacket.
BFL
Orange Belt
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Okay, I'll help end the whole argument. I wasn't going to come forth until the time was right but I guess I have to do what I have to do. I am a powerful spiritual being and I actually created Wing Chun, forged documents and originated stories, mythes and fables so people would let go of themselves and their ego's, dig, search, open their minds and find the truth that I layed out before them. Alas, it hasn't worked that well, the truth is that I created Wing Chun during my 3rd reign as supreme fighter/Ghost hunter and demon slayer, somewhere around 1769, I believe it was springtime actually, the snow's had begun to melt off in the mountains and the rivers were running full and fast. I can give more details but I doubt it would be accepted. So there you have the truth, I shall now retire back to my cave on Mount Arrarat and metidate on all this.
Good accounts Marty, Kuddo's, Your research has always been top notch.
The Hawk Lord
Good accounts Marty, Kuddo's, Your research has always been top notch.
The Hawk Lord
I believe that Wing Chun was brought to Earth by aliens. I base this hypothesis on the fact that the pyramids in Egypt were constructed by an alien civilisation .
Looking closely at the pyramids one can see that they are made up of triangular structures which is similar to the triangular structure found in the Wing Chun stance .
Wait a second , the Eiffel tower in Paris also has a pyramidal type structure reminiscent of a Wing Chun stance .
I have now revised my theory and i am now quite certain that Wing Chun originated in France some time during the Napoleonic wars.
HAHAHAHAHA, so funny and true!
I don't think Marty was taking personal shots, I think he's just passionate in his love of WC and its history...at least that's how I took it. Personally, I like the alien explanation too! But seriously, the historical record is sketchy enough that there are bound to be differences of opinion. What matters to me is the authenticity and quality of the family of martial arts (many lineages) that we call Wing Chun, Ving Tsun, Wing Tsun, Weng Chun and so forth. The best of these share such core traits as an elegant, logical simplicity, efficiency of motion, and an emphasis on sensing an opponent's energy so it may be "borrowed" and turned back against him, and so negating the advantage of a brute force attack.
To me, the diversity of lineages only adds to my fascination with this art, as there are even more variations of the core principles to explore. I don't care what your lineage is, or what ancient stories you like to quote. If you can show me a more efficient way to dissolve and counter an attack, I will thank you, since that's what WC/WT is really about.
Incidentally Marty, My personal martial arts journey began with a branch of the Shaolin 5 Animal System in 1976 and then, thankfully, discovering a branch of Augustine Fong's Wing Chun in 1979. A bit later, I became a personal student and disciple of GM Leung Ting from 1980 to about 1992. Then career and family took me away from the martial arts for some 15 years. I'm now training again with my old Wing Tsun brothers, Master Jeff Webb and Sifu Robert Jacquet through Master Webb's (independent) National Wing Tsun Organization or NWTO. I also love the FMA's and have been involved in Latosa Combat Escrima and DTE (Direct Torres Eskrima) beginning in the mid '80s. I am no expert, but did earn a bachelors degree in Social Anthropology and an MFA in Visual Arts, so I do value mythology, oral histories and folklore. I believe they often conceal a greater human truth that transcends mere historical data. That's just my take on things... and, it's a pleasure to be a part of this forum. Thanks to you all.
- Thread Starter
- #14
Oh.If that's the case then White Eyebrow was founded by followers of one of the alien gods known as Horus.
So that's the connection between the title and the symbol so commonly found in ancient Egypt. http://www.dreamstime.com/eye-of-horus-symbol-old-paper-image3572057
Except that they wanted to promote it as an art for all ages, so they called it white eyebrow referring to old hair.
punisher73
Senior Master
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Style creation stories aside, I think the main point Yew was trying to make is that WHOEVER put together/created Wing Chun was a good strategist in analyzing things. By learning to use the stance and body close in you can eliminate a fighter who relies on longer distances and space to create momentum in their punch.
Look at what boxers do when they start to get in trouble, they try to close the distance and clinch up with their opponent. Now extend that theory and apply your close-in fighting techniques and understanding to still be offensive instead of just holding on defensively.
- Thread Starter
- #16
Yeah.My point exactly.Thanks Mr Castle.
qwksilver61
Black Belt
aren't the people from the southern region of china smaller in stature?Besides this stuff works great against a taller opponents who have longer limbs.Can anyone here answer this; how many styles closely resemble Wing Tsun?
martyg
Yellow Belt
I'm leaning toward evolution vs. intelligent design. Sorry to all the creationists in advance for borrowing the analogy.
I'm leaning toward evolution vs. intelligent design. Sorry to all the creationists in advance for borrowing the analogy.
Yes, very funny...and true, too! But, all joking aside... I'm totally with you on this one. Whatever the early origins of our art, I'm sure it has evolved substantially over the generations, spreading into all the branches we have today...very like the evolution of species.
Ever notice how the creationist view, broadly speaking, always believes that the original form represents some perfected plan hatched from the brilliant mind of a creator. In the religious view of human creation, this would be Adam before the fall, the most perfect man who reflected the brilliance of his Divine Creator. Similarly, in the martial arts world, it is always posited that the original form, created by some ancient adept, a Chee Shin, Ng Mui or other "Elder" was perfect, and what we inherit is somehow diluted with the passing of every generation. Of course, something is lost whenever a great master passes, but other things are gained. And, following a more evolutionist model, I believe that arts must adapt and grow with each generation, or suffer the consequence... which is extinction.
qwksilver61
Black Belt
God bless,at least an honest answer without the ego or the opinion.What ever the answer we're all in this together.....we all search for answers... right or wrong......it's all in how you answer......
