Why Matsumura Seito contains Pinan katas (Itosu) if it claimed to be an orthodox teaching from Bushi Matsumura?

[goldenglory86]

Why Matsumura Seito contains Pinan katas (Itosu) if it claimed to be an orthodox teaching from Bushi Matsumura?

 

[isshinryuronin18 18]

Why Matsumura Seito contains Pinan katas (Itosu) if it claimed to be an orthodox teaching from Bushi Matsumura?

A thoughtful question. Earlier this month in the thread Who Created the Pinan Katas? I addressed the issue (post #6) but there are some unknowns. It could be that originally there were just Pinan 1 & 2 (which may have been one kata, later divided into two) that was passed down by Matsumura (I think it's unknown where he learned it).

Hohan Sokon, the founder of Matsumura Seito Shorinryu, being in the Matsumura family bloodline, probably received the full measure of Matsumura's orthodox teachings, including his Pinan 1 & 2.

Fusei Kise, a student of Hohan, is generally acknowledged as the heir to the style. Prior to this however, he studied with other Shorin masters from the Itosu branch. So Kise knew Itosu's Pinan 3, 4 and 5 as well and added them to the Mutsumura Seito curriculum once he ascended a lead role in the style.

Some is conjecture on my part but seems to be a likely answer to your question.

 

[Same Trick74 25]

A link with an interview with Hohan Sokon

I

Thread 'Hohan Soken; Inheritor of the Matsumura family's suide/tode'

Feb 28, 2005

Nabe (Tanme) Matsumura was Hohan Soken's teacher. He taught him the style known as Machimura Suidi. This is the original art of Sokon Matsumura before the advent of karate-do. Here is an Ernest Estrada interview with Soken in the 70's. If you've never read it before it may open some eyes. Here it is. Enjoy!




The following interview with Hohan Soken is by Ernest Estrada. We are very grateful to him for granting permission to us to use his work. SOKEN HOHAN (SHORIN-RYU)

The following interview was conducted at the Kadena NCO Club located at Kadena Air Base, Okinawa. Present...

• Ippon Ken
• Replies: 6
• Forum: Karate

From the interview I get the idea that Matsumora taught differently do different students, perhaps also differently at various stages of his life ?
Hohan Soken learned one way throughoutly then when he himself became a teacher seems to adopted other linages methods/kata..because of “consumers/students demand” and that’s how/why the Pinan kata came to be part of his curriculum?

 

[goldenglory86]

Are the Pinan katas (shodan and nidan) originally passed down by Bushi Matsumura?

 

[goldenglory86]

A thoughtful question. Earlier this month in the thread Who Created the Pinan Katas? I addressed the issue (post #6) but there are some unknowns. It could be that originally there were just Pinan 1 & 2 (which may have been one kata, later divided into two) that was passed down by Matsumura (I think it's unknown where he learned it).

Hohan Sokon, the founder of Matsumura Seito Shorinryu, being in the Matsumura family bloodline, probably received the full measure of Matsumura's orthodox teachings, including his Pinan 1 & 2.

Fusei Kise, a student of Hohan, is generally acknowledged as the heir to the style. Prior to this however, he studied with other Shorin masters from the Itosu branch. So Kise knew Itosu's Pinan 3, 4 and 5 as well and added them to the Mutsumura Seito curriculum once he ascended a lead role in the style.

Some is conjecture on my part but seems to be a likely answer to your question.

So Pinan 1 & 2 are creations of Bushi Matsumura?

 

[isshinryuronin18 18]

So Pinan 1 & 2 are creations of Bushi Matsumura?

was passed down by Matsumura (I think it's unknown where he learned it).

Are the Pinan katas (shodan and nidan) originally passed down by Bushi Matsumura?

IMO it's most likely from Matsumura > Itosu, although Itosu may have also learned from a Tomari master. He was also taught by Nagahama (Gukusuma) from Naha, but I don't think those styles use the Pinans.

 

[punisher73]

Let me preface to say that I don't know enough specifics about this particular style to give a definitive opinion on it. But, I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night...

It might be that they are included because before WW2, "styles" weren't really a thing on Okinawan. There were places where karate was learned and they shared a lot of commonalities (Naha, Shuri, Tomari) and there was a lot of "cross training" between people.

After the war, the US paid Karate teachers to teach Americans and it was a good way to make a living. At this point, we really started to see "styles" become more cemented in stone to differentiate what they taught versus what someone else was teaching.

The other thing is that the "pinan/heian" were kind of a "universal" set that many people knew and were familiar with. So, it would be a great starting template for students and to pass on Okinawan karate methodology and philosophy to people.

I don't know, but my guess would be that Matsumura Seito's inclusion would be because of the spread of Okinawan Karate and the standardization and template for beginners. In watching some videos, it looks like there are some minor differences that would be unique to their particular style using the training methodology of their system.

 

[goldenglory86]

What about rohai kata?