Why is their so much disrespect for Karate? And what can we do to stop it?

gpseymour

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Besides jab and cross, does Karate have hook, uppercut, and overhand? Also does the concept of "1 step multiple punches" exist in Karate?

IMO, some TMA striking skill are just too linear without 3 dimensional striking. If one always trains 2 dimensional linear punches, he may not feel comfortable to deal with 3 dimensional punches such as jab/cross, hook, uppercut, overhand.
My experience with Karate folks is that...it depends. It depends upon which style, and who the instructor is. Shotokan seems less likely to have those round punches - they really like those angles. I think almost any school would have something about mixing up the footwork and punches to different rhythms, rather than just the punch-step drills that are in the kata.
 

drop bear

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Yes. Have you trained in a dojo that offers this? If not, your claims about what happens in those dojos is off base.

That is an incorrect assumption. And you are attacking the poster not the post

There is either evidence for it or there isn't.

So for example if I suggested a kudo grading sparring is hard contact. I don't have to have done it. I just have to find a video of it.


Now because I know kudo guys and I know how they spar. But that doesn't make my evidence more evidency than his. It just means I might know better places to look.
 

Monkey Turned Wolf

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That is an incorrect assumption. And you are attacking the poster not the post
Attacking may be the wrong word. But yes, I am focusing on the poster's experiences. He is making a claim. Which he cannot validate as he has not had any experience with hard contact martial arts. And he is not claiming what is/isn't hard contact, or what styles do/don't do hard contact. He is claiming that A) hard contact impacts his ability to function afterwards (presumably in terms of being sore), and B) per his words prepare you right, meaning not hospitalizing you. Youtube videos don't really go into that, so the only way for him to validate his claims is to have done those things. Which he has not, has no intention to do, and has no intention to do even basic research about, while making his claims.

Also, there is a point to focusing on a poster's points, rather than the poster. But when the poster continuously makes claims on a variety of topics, never providing any evidence of any of it and always backtracking his points, it seems pretty pointless to actually address his points themselves. Essentially the same as arguing with a five year old about economics-you can do so, but it's an exercise in futility.
 
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Tony Dismukes

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My inclination is that it's both: people who are gritty are more likely to be interested in (and seek out) training with hard contact, and training with any significant contact (including falls) does build toughness.

I'd argue that it's much more the first. People are likely to want to train in a style that's compatible with them, and I've learned most of the population doesn't actually want to do anything that might result in pain. So most people that look for, and more importantly continue past the first few lessons, with hard contact are those that are "gritty" enough to be okay with the level of pain. Their toughness might increase, but they've got to have that base level of toughness to begin with.

The exception is those that have some sort of motivation that is more powerful than their desire to avoid pain (whether that's honor, revenge, avoiding other pain, fear, etc.). But IME most people, even those that think they've got that motivation, don't actually when it comes to training a hard contact style.
I’ll offer my own experience here as it seems relevant.

When I started martial arts training, I was uncoordinated, unathletic, and very timid about physical contact and getting hit. I literally could not hold my own in a pillow fight.

The first martial art that I practiced seriously for a significant length of time was Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu (or ”ninjutsu“ as it was marketed in those days). We didn’t do real sparring, but even the choreographed, compliant technique drills involved physical contact and the experience of seeing someone punching or kicking at me (even if I generally wasn’t actually getting hit hard). Every so often we’d get hit or thrown a little harder than expected and I got used to that. The process gradually desensitized me to contact to the point where I could do some light sparring with friends who did other arts and not mind if I occasionally got accidentally bopped a little harder than I was used to.

Next I spent some time in the SCA and participated in their version of heavy weapons fighting. This was a significant step up in contact intensity, but there were some mitigating factors. We wore armor and heavy helmets, which meant that I experienced head hits mostly as a loud noise and hits elsewhere generally didn’t produce anything worse than a bruise. In addition, the rules meant that we didn’t have to stand up to continuous damage. One clean hit to an arm or leg meant that limb was out of commission. One clean hit to the head or body meant that you were “dead” and and lost the match. Still, I got used to getting hit harder than I had been in the Bujinkan, and I got more experience with the mental pressure of someone trying to hit me hard in non-compliant sparring.

After a while I moved on to Muay Thai and jiu-jitsu (first a Danzan Ryu spinoff and then BJJ). I got a fairly easy introduction to Muay Thai, because my instructor was focused on building up non-fighters rather than running a serious fight gym. That meant he eased me in to hard sparring gradually rather than throwing me in the deep end. Even so, it took me a while to adapt. My first time holding the Thai pads, I had an old pair of worn out pads and an experienced training partner who could kick hard. My forearms hurt so much from holding the pads for him that I had to grit my teeth to keep from crying.

Gradually I adjusted to that and started training with higher levels of contact and tougher opponents. I’ve competed in kickboxing, SCA, Judo, BJJ, Sumo, and HEMA. I’ve sparred professional fighters (at moderate contact levels for the most part). I’ve been knocked down, I’ve been knocked out, I’ve had broken bones and dislocations and stitches, I’ve been twisted into knots, and I’ve had countless bruises, contusions, and strains.

These days I have a strong preference for training in arts which involve sparring with a significant degree of contact. I do make allowances for the fact that I’m 57 years old, don’t heal as fast as I used to, and I don’t want to risk excessive head trauma. (So if I spar professional fighters these days, I make sure it’s guys that I can trust to maintain control and not give me a concussion or put me in the ER.)

The me of 40 years ago would be terrified to do the training I do now. If you tossed that 17 year old version of myself into my current sparring sessions, he would panic and likely quit.

So I think that Gerry is right when he says the process works both ways. Tougher people are attracted to tougher training but tougher training does build tougher people. Sometimes the ramp up needs to be more gradual. Not everyone is ready to jump into full contact from the start, but I think that most people can get there eventually, given encouragement, an appropriate path for progression, and a passion for learning and improving in the martial arts.
 

drop bear

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think that most people can get there eventually, given encouragement, an appropriate path for progression, and a passion for learning and improving in the martial arts.

This. Pretty much.

We expect these full contact fighters to be made of different stuff. And they tend not to be.

The wimp to warrior style programs are the biggest eye opening examples of what your average person can do.


That and Spartan races. It was this belief for ages that female soldiers couldn't obstacle courses. Meanwhile soccer mums do Spartan races just for the hell of it.
 

Tony Dismukes

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We expect these full contact fighters to be made of different stuff. And they tend not to be.
I’d say the difference lies in how much of a ramp up that a given individual needs to get to that level. Some people come in really tough on day one*, are prepared for a steep path of progression, and even enjoy drill sergeant style motivation. Other people need to start out at an easier level, progress more gradually, and respond more to a positive style of encouragement. Doesn’t mean they can’t get to the same place, it just takes longer.

*(I don’t claim to know how much of that starting level of toughness is due to genetics vs prior life experience. I just know that different people walk in with vastly different levels of it at the start of their training.)
 
D

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Yes. Have you trained in a dojo that offers this? If not, your claims about what happens in those dojos is off base.
Yes.

If we dont use the term "sparring", it means you are actively trying to injure each other and/or have a higher risk due to not pulling punches of injury than normal. Hell even if we use sparring, its probbly true, the risk of injury will go up.
(nothing about that statement changes if i answered yes or no to the first question)
 
D

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We expect these full contact fighters to be made of different stuff. And they tend not to be.
Isnt there a running list of people having legiitmate brain damage and other issues from doing boxing as a proffesion for 10-30 years? at least in the knockout heavy weight classes.
 

Tony Dismukes

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Hard contact is such where you use the same force as you would use to knock the person out no? thats how i define it anyway.

As opposed to light which is pretty much tapping
There’s a lot of gradation between those two extremes. No contact, touch contact, light contact, medium contact, hard contact, full contact. Those labels can also vary according to an individual’s experience and conditioning. One man’s medium contact might be another man’s light contact or a different man’s hard contact. If you define “full contact“ as “hitting as hard as you are able”, then a beginner’s “full contact” might be equivalent to a professional’s medium contact.

For most people, “hard contact“ doesn’t indicate absolute full power or an attempt to knock out your sparring partner. It’s more like letting your strikes go freely with good body mechanics, but without putting that extra oomph on them to actually finish off your partner, especially if you see that you’re about to land a clean strike on a particularly vulnerable target. That’s just my experience, of course, and as I’ve noted there is a wide range of possible contact levels and how people will label them.
 

Monkey Turned Wolf

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Yes.

If we dont use the term "sparring", it means you are actively trying to injure each other and/or have a higher risk due to not pulling punches of injury than normal. Hell even if we use sparring, its probbly true, the risk of injury will go up.
(nothing about that statement changes if i answered yes or no to the first question)
Have you trained somewhere new in the last 6 months? The last you indicated was training as a kid in TKD. I believe one of your complaints about that was the lack of hard contact sparring.
 
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There’s a lot of gradation between those two extremes. No contact, touch contact, light contact, medium contact, hard contact, full contact. Those labels can also vary according to an individual’s experience and conditioning. One man’s medium contact might be another man’s light contact or a different man’s hard contact. If you define “full contact“ as “hitting as hard as you are able”, then a beginner’s “full contact” might be equivalent to a professional’s medium contact.

For most people, “hard contact“ doesn’t indicate absolute full power or an attempt to knock out your sparring partner. It’s more like letting your strikes go freely with good body mechanics, but without putting that extra oomph on them to actually finish off your partner, especially if you see that you’re about to land a clean strike on a particularly vulnerable target. That’s just my experience, of course, and as I’ve noted there is a wide range of possible contact levels and how people will label them.

I have mentioned such before and am aware. Given the fact id probbly not get a worthy enough reply to bother to go into that much depth i decided to avoid it. (or my usual tangent explinations)

Although, given its you, i will entertain such here.

the ones as far as i recall my TKD (in school) were step sparring, parternered drills, light and heavy[sparring]. (heavy being with armour so not pulling punches) and as far as i witnessed as far as i can recall. So with that, and usig TKD as the base, there was no need to really mention the others, i am aware of their existance. (and i am aware any ruleset can exist)

The definition i asked for before i gave my reply, if hard contact was to mean "fighting like in a actual fight" or not, id argue and say you cannot truely do hard contact sparring as its not really sparring. there is line a where it goes from to practise and learn to hurt and best the other person.

Dont know how to edit the above to make sense, i meant "thats why i asked for a definition" before i gave my reply, and the definition was such. (as far as i could tell, thats my presumption for hard contact defult)

Its not really a experince marker to me, just intent. Anyone who does combat sports and wants to compete probbly has done a mock match once or twice, just to at least get used to somone trying to knock them out once. thats obviously a diffrent game to normal sparring.

I could gladly argue in conversations if you want.
 

Tony Dismukes

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Isnt there a running list of people having legiitmate brain damage and other issues from doing boxing as a proffesion for 10-30 years? at least in the knockout heavy weight classes.
Yep, long term participation in full contact sports which involve impact to the head (boxing, kickboxing, MMA, American football, etc) absolutely has a significant chance of causing long term brain damage - especially if you keep going after multiple concussions, which is not uncommon for boxers.

That doesn’t mean that an average individual can’t develop the mental and physical toughness to participate in these sports. It just means that that they if they do they should understand the health risks of doing so long term and the warning signs of when they should stop competing if they want to preserve their brain cells. (They can still train with a reasonable degree of contact, but there’s a time to put aside full contact competition if you want to keep a healthy brain.)
 
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Have you trained somewhere new in the last 6 months? The last you indicated was training as a kid in TKD. I believe one of your complaints about that was the lack of hard contact sparring.
Writ out a nice comment to that before i realised it was a strawman and had no actual relivency to the orignal point raised. Good try though.

Attendy in the last 6 months is irrelivent, attendence in the past is only nominally relivent, and my personal opionon on TKD is definiately irrelivent

@Tony Dismukes Case and point as to why i didnt bother.
 

Steve

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My inclination is that it's both: people who are gritty are more likely to be interested in (and seek out) training with hard contact, and training with any significant contact (including falls) does build toughness.
Think you missed the point.
 

Monkey Turned Wolf

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Writ out a nice comment to that before i realised it was a strawman and had no actual relivency to the orignal point raised. Good try though.

Attendy in the last 6 months is irrelivent, attendence in the past is only nominally relivent, and my personal opionon on TKD is definiately irrelivent

@Tony Dismukes Case and point as to why i didnt bother.
The point wasn't the last 6 months. It's that I know your history up until then, and it doesn't include the full contact your claiming; since your only actual training is TKD and from your opinion on TKD it wasn't full contact. I was just checking to see if the gap of the last 6 months changed that experience for what you are claiming knowledge of.
 

drop bear

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Isnt there a running list of people having legiitmate brain damage and other issues from doing boxing as a proffesion for 10-30 years? at least in the knockout heavy weight classes.

Probably.
 
D

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The point wasn't the last 6 months. It's that I know your history up until then, and it doesn't include the full contact your claiming; since your only actual training is TKD and from your opinion on TKD it wasn't full contact. I was just checking to see if the gap of the last 6 months changed that experience for what you are claiming knowledge of.
So fallacies? (including strawman) nice of you to admit it.
 
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No strawman. I'm not arguing against a distorted version of you. I'm referring directly to you, though it is interesting to note that you think someone with your experiences, making the claims you are, is a strawman...
See previous post(s)
 
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