Why do military systems universally use Savate kicks (esp Asian ones not influenced by savate)?

Bullsherdog

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As we know because of how so much of Western martial arts have been lost, most military hand to hand combat systems in the West end up taking most of their kicking techniques directly from eastern styles namely Karate, Muay Thai, TKD, and various Kung Fu styles. So its expected that they should use oriental style kicks........

Except a lot of what I see end up looking exactly like Savate style kicks! For example Defendu developed by Fairbairn, a practitioner of Chinese martial arts and enthusiast in Chinese culture, has fouette looking kicks! Matt Larson's Modern Army Combatives (which still heavily influences modern US Army techniques) uses the exact same principles of Savate kicks using the specific part of a shoe such as the tip and the outsoles and heels of the shoe! I seen Canadian systems with the exact same thing!

Ok I know Fairbairn and other military instructors went across the world and studied different stuff to develop their system so they might have encountered Savate or systems influenced by Savate. In addition I also know for a very long time Savate was the style European militaries was heavily influenced by as seen in how Nazi Germany had hired a few Savate fighters to help in developing their own systems and early Krav Maga creators were busy trying to add in effective techniques to defend themselves from pogroms (so it'd make sense Krav's creators would learn of Savate kicks since their initial primary influence was boxing and wrestling and they were exploring local street fights and styles to add on to their base). But AFAIK at least in Fairbairn and Matt Larson's case they crafted their system specifically around Asian techniques as far as kicking goes. Fairbairn was so heavily influenced by the Chinese even most of Defendu's handstrikes is Kung Fu and Matt Larson stated it was primarily karate (at least in the first incarnation of MAC he created in the late 80s/early 90s) he took from for kicking techniques.

However it makes it confusing that not only did some countries in Europe did not have easy access to Savate and already had their own techniques such as Russia (where peasants already had kicking techniques in local wrestling style) and Turkey (who was just recovering from the backwardness of Ottoman rule and had kicks in their traditional swordsmanship). Yet even without accessing Savateurs, their military systems already had the coup de bas and other Savate kicks. Granted mostly low kicks (which perfectly reflect their primary emphasis on wrestling) but still it was surprising.

Most shocking of it all is that if you watch modern Asian armies that USE their local systems as the official military's CQC....... They use kicks that resemble Savate! Or at least uses Savate's basic principle of using the tip of the shoe, the heel and soles, and other boots. Even styles that are blatantly different (especially Korean Tae Kwon Do), end up using more Savate-looking kicks than their styles traditional methods such as Muay Thai's kicking with shins and TKD's high attacks and jumping kicks. And its not just modern military forces- I seen WWII era Japan training and the kicking techniques use the same angles and physical placements as savate kicks. Despite the fact that when training in the dojos, they use traditional karate kicks! But in the field it seems as though they suddenly have been practising Savate for years to know about the advantages of the tip of the shoes and whatnot.

I'm not familiar with Vietnamese and Algerian martial arts but even movies and even real life documentaries I seen of riots and such such they are shown using Savate looking kicks despite the anti-French sentiment going on during the French occupation of those two countries.

Why is this? I mean despite how Savate is bashed for being "sissified French" and how many of us who respect the style think its sad its obscure, Savate techniques seem to be used by military everywhere including Asia to the point of giving the impression its as universally known as karate and Kung Fu is by the general public!

Can anyone explain if I'm just hallucinating or if they also observed this phenomenon too? I seeing Muay Thai military training use more Savate kicks (hit with the toes) than kicking the shin especially when they're sparring while in uniform is so unbelievable its like seeing a woman pull up her shirt and flash her naked body at me! Or even witnessing a demon run in town and slaughter people!
 

Danny T

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Having been through military combative training while serving I believe it is more of the practicality of using the hard sole and heel of the boot than being a specific method of martial art.
 
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A kick is a kick, there are only X amount of ways of doing it.

edit: Its not that shocking to me two or more persons can come up with similar ideas without any influence on each other after all there is only a certain amount of ways of moving your body to hurt someone else.
 

pdg

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Alternatively, you could say that savate took all it's kicks from other arts and systems and gave them all new names...

Seriously, there's only so many ways to kick, and these are reduced as soon as footwear is involved.

Wearing properly fastened high boots, it's difficult to turn your ankle to use the foot 'blade' for a side kick, so use the sole/under heel.

It's also difficult to straighten out your ankle to use the instep for a turning kick, so take advantage of the structural strength of the boot and use the toe.

Anything coming downward or reverse turning uses the heel anyway (or it should, it's stronger) unless it's intended to be hooking.

Boot compared to shin? Boot. Silly question.
 

jobo

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Alternatively, you could say that savate took all it's kicks from other arts and systems and gave them all new names...

Seriously, there's only so many ways to kick, and these are reduced as soon as footwear is involved.

Wearing properly fastened high boots, it's difficult to turn your ankle to use the foot 'blade' for a side kick, so use the sole/under heel.

It's also difficult to straighten out your ankle to use the instep for a turning kick, so take advantage of the structural strength of the boot and use the toe.

Anything coming downward or reverse turning uses the heel anyway (or it should, it's stronger) unless it's intended to be hooking.

Boot compared to shin? Boot. Silly question.
No perhaps the other way round, asia n arts are predominantly bare foot, not only is it hard to kick correctly wearing a pair of bother boots, it's completely unnecessary,

This comes up time and time again at my dojo, were people tell me I'm doing it wrong, or they drop Or raise a knee to defend a kick, that won't work if in toe ending you with a pair of doc Martin's i tell them, it will just smash you knee,
 
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drop bear

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How do you kick with the ball of your foot in a boot?
 

oftheherd1

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As we know because of how so much of Western martial arts have been lost, most military hand to hand combat systems in the West end up taking most of their kicking techniques directly from eastern styles namely Karate, Muay Thai, TKD, and various Kung Fu styles. So its expected that they should use oriental style kicks........

Except a lot of what I see end up looking exactly like Savate style kicks! For example Defendu developed by Fairbairn, a practitioner of Chinese martial arts and enthusiast in Chinese culture, has fouette looking kicks! Matt Larson's Modern Army Combatives (which still heavily influences modern US Army techniques) uses the exact same principles of Savate kicks using the specific part of a shoe such as the tip and the outsoles and heels of the shoe! I seen Canadian systems with the exact same thing!

Ok I know Fairbairn and other military instructors went across the world and studied different stuff to develop their system so they might have encountered Savate or systems influenced by Savate. In addition I also know for a very long time Savate was the style European militaries was heavily influenced by as seen in how Nazi Germany had hired a few Savate fighters to help in developing their own systems and early Krav Maga creators were busy trying to add in effective techniques to defend themselves from pogroms (so it'd make sense Krav's creators would learn of Savate kicks since their initial primary influence was boxing and wrestling and they were exploring local street fights and styles to add on to their base). But AFAIK at least in Fairbairn and Matt Larson's case they crafted their system specifically around Asian techniques as far as kicking goes. Fairbairn was so heavily influenced by the Chinese even most of Defendu's handstrikes is Kung Fu and Matt Larson stated it was primarily karate (at least in the first incarnation of MAC he created in the late 80s/early 90s) he took from for kicking techniques.

However it makes it confusing that not only did some countries in Europe did not have easy access to Savate and already had their own techniques such as Russia (where peasants already had kicking techniques in local wrestling style) and Turkey (who was just recovering from the backwardness of Ottoman rule and had kicks in their traditional swordsmanship). Yet even without accessing Savateurs, their military systems already had the coup de bas and other Savate kicks. Granted mostly low kicks (which perfectly reflect their primary emphasis on wrestling) but still it was surprising.

Most shocking of it all is that if you watch modern Asian armies that USE their local systems as the official military's CQC....... They use kicks that resemble Savate! Or at least uses Savate's basic principle of using the tip of the shoe, the heel and soles, and other boots. Even styles that are blatantly different (especially Korean Tae Kwon Do), end up using more Savate-looking kicks than their styles traditional methods such as Muay Thai's kicking with shins and TKD's high attacks and jumping kicks. And its not just modern military forces- I seen WWII era Japan training and the kicking techniques use the same angles and physical placements as savate kicks. Despite the fact that when training in the dojos, they use traditional karate kicks! But in the field it seems as though they suddenly have been practising Savate for years to know about the advantages of the tip of the shoes and whatnot.

I'm not familiar with Vietnamese and Algerian martial arts but even movies and even real life documentaries I seen of riots and such such they are shown using Savate looking kicks despite the anti-French sentiment going on during the French occupation of those two countries.

Why is this? I mean despite how Savate is bashed for being "sissified French" and how many of us who respect the style think its sad its obscure, Savate techniques seem to be used by military everywhere including Asia to the point of giving the impression its as universally known as karate and Kung Fu is by the general public!

Can anyone explain if I'm just hallucinating or if they also observed this phenomenon too? I seeing Muay Thai military training use more Savate kicks (hit with the toes) than kicking the shin especially when they're sparring while in uniform is so unbelievable its like seeing a woman pull up her shirt and flash her naked body at me! Or even witnessing a demon run in town and slaughter people!

My Goodness. That was a long post just to say what I bolded and underlined.
 

jks9199

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Let's see...

A shod human foot. An intent to use said foot to cause harm to another person.

Yep, ain't but so many ways to do that.

And an art that uses shoes. One of the few kicking arts built around using shoes.

Not surprised at all to see some similarities crop up. In fact, I'd be rather more surprised if there weren't any.
 
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