Why break grips?

dunc

Black Belt
Joined
Mar 31, 2006
Messages
534
Reaction score
399
This thread is about gi grappling I think and generally speaking in the gi it is preferable to control the arm/wrist using the jacket as it’s much harder to escape and gripping the sleeve should be part of your grip release so it’s already there

In terms of how best to grip the wrist it depends on what you’re doing and your relative positions. @Kung Fu Wang ‘s grip is harder to escape and you’re able to structurally apply more downwards pressure is makes it very useful. The “wrong grip” is needed when you’re on the inside (eg performing tai otoshi)

So I agree with @Gerry Seymour that both are useful and I’d add the cross grips into the mix also
 

Kung Fu Wang

Sr. Grandmaster
MT Mentor
Joined
Sep 26, 2012
Messages
13,720
Reaction score
4,335
Location
Austin, Tx/Shell Beach, Ca
I’d add the cross grips into the mix also
What's cross grips? Are you talking about to use

1. left hand to hold your opponent's right wrist (with tiger mouth facing toward him),
2. right hand to hold your opponent's left wrist (with tiger mouth facing toward yourself) at the same time?
 

dunc

Black Belt
Joined
Mar 31, 2006
Messages
534
Reaction score
399
I think there are times when it's optimal to grip the wrist in any of the four possible combinations
There are techniques that make your grips much harder to escape and even methods of throwing with the single wrist grip

In the gi there are also quite a few different ways to grip sleeve, again with the four possible hand configurations
 

O'Malley

Black Belt
Joined
Jan 3, 2013
Messages
586
Reaction score
476
May or may not apply however, "No grip Tai Otoshi..."

Was about to point out something similar. In aikido, the opponent's grip is often used to one's own advantage.


I'd bet there's a similar concept in BJJ (even though I don't know whether it's the preferred approach).
 

screamingskull

Orange Belt
Joined
Oct 28, 2023
Messages
66
Reaction score
8
Was about to point out something similar. In aikido, the opponent's grip is often used to one's own advantage.


I'd bet there's a similar concept in BJJ (even though I don't know whether it's the preferred approach).
Aikido is not for any real fighting.
 

dunc

Black Belt
Joined
Mar 31, 2006
Messages
534
Reaction score
399
Was about to point out something similar. In aikido, the opponent's grip is often used to one's own advantage.


I'd bet there's a similar concept in BJJ (even though I don't know whether it's the preferred approach).
In BJJ you can use this kind of thing - namely if your opponent grips onto something for dear life and refuses (or forgets) to let go once his grip becomes a liability
But after around 2 stripes on their white belt people kinda stop holding on beyond the point of usefulness and/or have learnt how to immediately use a grip to distupt/offbalance etc so it stops working beyond that point

Having said that I do leave gripping opportunities for my opponent that are just out of range and find that can give you some nicely extended arms
 

Gerry Seymour

MT Moderator
Staff member
Supporting Member
Joined
Mar 27, 2012
Messages
29,511
Reaction score
10,206
Location
Hendersonville, NC
Can you tell why I call one wrist control is correct and the other wrist control is wrong?
No, because when I commented on it, you went in a different direction. You showed grips from two different directions, and each would be less useful than the other in some circumstances. And each offers different opportunities for counters.
 

Gerry Seymour

MT Moderator
Staff member
Supporting Member
Joined
Mar 27, 2012
Messages
29,511
Reaction score
10,206
Location
Hendersonville, NC
What's cross grips? Are you talking about to use

1. left hand to hold your opponent's right wrist (with tiger mouth facing toward him),
2. right hand to hold your opponent's left wrist (with tiger mouth facing toward yourself) at the same time?
"Cross grip" usually refers to reaching across, so would be right hand gripping right hand from the inside.
 

JowGaWolf

Sr. Grandmaster
MT Mentor
Joined
Aug 3, 2015
Messages
13,395
Reaction score
5,479
This is the correct wrist control.

correct_wrist_grab_1.jpg
Jow Ga has a counter to this. He tried to gain control with this grip but was never able to. The irony is that this grip works to maintain the grip and the counter in Jow Ga exploits this. The only reason why the technique work is because the person is able to maintain the grip.
 

Kung Fu Wang

Sr. Grandmaster
MT Mentor
Joined
Sep 26, 2012
Messages
13,720
Reaction score
4,335
Location
Austin, Tx/Shell Beach, Ca
Jow Ga has a counter to this. He tried to gain control with this grip but was never able to. The irony is that this grip works to maintain the grip and the counter in Jow Ga exploits this. The only reason why the technique work is because the person is able to maintain the grip.
The wrist control is temporary. The main purpose of the wrist grip is to let your opponent to break away so you can take advantage at that moment. In other words, you think 1 step ahead. Your goal is not the wrist control. Your goal is when your opponent breaks your wrist control, your hand can easily move to his elbow.

This short video explains the purpose of the wrist control.

 

dunc

Black Belt
Joined
Mar 31, 2006
Messages
534
Reaction score
399
the striking in Aikido is not for use outside nor is the "Grappling"
even in Judo it´s very basic & tought in Kata about 3rd Dan.
Appreciate this is going away from the OP, but what kind of striking and grappling do you this is optimal for “outside”?
 

Ivan

Black Belt
Joined
Apr 8, 2018
Messages
664
Reaction score
386
Whenever I focus on breaking grips, assuming I even can break the grip, I feel like I spend more time and effort breaking the grip than my opponent does re-establishing it. For example, I break my opponent's grip on my lapel. He then grabs my lapel again. I've wasted energy for something he easily got back. And if we keep going, I've burned myself out and they still end up with the grip they wanted.

@Tony Dismukes I know you made some excellent videos in the past, this may be a good topic for another video. I hope you don't consider me out-of-line for requesting it.
This is where standup knowledge comes in. A largely overlooked aspect of grappling is grip fighting. Judo places the most emphasis on it, especially the American Judo academies as their throws and throwing systems are not up to par with countries that place a lot more emphasis on the sport such as France and Georgia. However, grip fighting is a very good way to control not just your opponent, and to put you in a dominant position, but also to control the pace of the fight. The Americans have developed considerably more elaborate grip systems to cope with their disadvantages, and other countries aside from having their own grips such as the Georgian grip, practically ignore this aspect too.

An example to understand the importance of grip breaking and grip fighting is imagining a judo or BJJ match - both opponents start standing with no grips on their opponent. Grip fighting will dictate who gets the better position to throw or pull guard. For example, a grip fighting strategy I was taught in judo is to intercept the hand my opponent uses to reach for their first grip, and control his sleeve in such a way that he cannot grip me back; after this is when I can establish a lapel grip. Now I not only have a traditional judo grip, but I have also defanged him - he can only grab me with one hand, and I also have complete control over one side of his body. Furthermore, the grip he can establish is just a sleeve grip, as I have intercepted the hand he would use to grip my collar.

Grip breaking is the mechanic used to re-establish distance or a position in which grip fighting can be viable. If I cannot break a grip I cannot start looking for more dominant grips over my opponent. In terms of groundwork, this applies too. I cannot start to fight for more dominant grips if I don't break my opponent's grips first. I would say a better example of this might be defending yourself from being attacked in turtle, or closed guard. If you want to escape, transition, grip fight, or avoid being submitted, you had best break those grips first.

In terms of standup though, there is really no point in breaking grips if you don't know how to grip fight, unless the grip they have is extremely dominant such as a behind-the-neck collar grip.
 

Kung Fu Wang

Sr. Grandmaster
MT Mentor
Joined
Sep 26, 2012
Messages
13,720
Reaction score
4,335
Location
Austin, Tx/Shell Beach, Ca
both opponents start standing with no grips on their opponent.
When both opponents start standing with no grips on their opponent, the best way to start a grip fight can be:

- You use left hand to control your opponent's right wrist.
- You use right hand to grab his right lapel (or right upper arm).
- You start to move toward your left (This way, your opponent's left hand cannot reach you).
 

Hanshi

Blue Belt
Joined
Oct 9, 2012
Messages
217
Reaction score
163
Location
Virginia
I know nothing about BJJ but taught and trained how to "nullify" being gripped. When grabbed at the lapel I taught trapping the opponent's hand rather than pulling away from it. With the opponent's hand trapped on one's lapel an immediate joint lock can be applied. If simply breaking a wrist grip to get away it's quite easy to do, depending on the opponent's strength. Same for a choke.

Being physically smaller than most I much preferred getting inside and tight. Being close and tight works for me even if we both go to the mat. It appears it may be quite different for those who come from the BJJ angle as opposed to those from other arts. Just my thoughts and worth nothing more than any other's.
 
Top